War elephants.

[Spec]

Were they that useful? I went to have a looksy on Wiki, but it seems that even though they were intimidating, they never really won a war. Am I right? And how did they kill them or scare them. On wiki they say alexander and the romans had found a way to deal with them...what was it? Flaming pigs?

Spec.

[Wezil]

The mice brigades.

[snoopy369]

IIRC elephants were more useful as transportation (ie, Hannibal) than as actual cavalry types. They're not as trainable as horses and ultimately nothing is as good as a human at killing other humans, which means that horses are superior (as they keep the human within range of the other human).

Also elephants were pretty slow compared to horsed cavalry.

This all beyond the fact that elephants take a HUGE amount of food to feed... like half of their day is spent eating.

[snoopy369]

http://www.asimovs.com/_issue_0202/e...tsneptune.html
by the way is an amusing story

[Aabraxan]

I also remember hearing that they were particularly bad about stampeding when wounded and kept trampling the nearest troops. Unfortunately, the nearest troops were usually those that weren't supposed to be trampled.

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

Originally posted by Spec
Were they that useful? I went to have a looksy on Wiki, but it seems that even though they were intimidating, they never really won a war. Am I right? And how did they kill them or scare them. On wiki they say alexander and the romans had found a way to deal with them...what was it? Flaming pigs?

Spec.

The Romans

A reportedly effective anti-elephant weapon was the pig. Pliny the Elder reported that "elephants are scared by the smallest squeal of a pig" (VIII, 1.27). A siege of Megara was reportedly broken when the Megarians poured oil on a herd of pigs, set them alight, and drove them towards the enemy's massed war elephants. The elephants bolted in terror from the flaming squealing pigs.

[SlowwHand]

I'd run from a burning pig, too.

"If you're hallucinations, we're supposed to ignore you."

[Japher]

I'd think the transportation aspect of a War Elephant would be the most compeling reason to use them. Especially in a jungle where they would be able to plow through the brush, instead of having to clear as you go.

[BeBro]

The wiki thing mentions Caesar equipping some troops with axes to injure the elephant's legs and that troops were trained to let them pass so that they couldn't do much damage. One method used IIRC by Roman at Zama was also to make lots of noises with their war trumpets to confuse the elephants and possibly to drive them back against their own forces.

Back in school my history teacher told me that those elephants were often "stimulated" with drug-like stuff to be more agressive in battle, but that also became sometimes a problem when they went out of control and attacked their own troops. He also said as a last resort in such a case the rider then would drive a wedge through the elephant's head to kill him when he was uncontrollable (never checked that, but sounded ok back then).

[Bosh]

Elephants were never that useful except as a psychological warfare tactics (but they were often good at that).

Alexander the great had two-man teams with one big strong guy with a sledgehammer and one with a huge shield. The guy with the sledgehammer would wack the elephant's toes...

[SlowwHand]

Where's PETA when you need them?

[Proteus_MST]

Originally posted by BeBro
The wiki thing mentions Caesar equipping some troops with axes to injure the elephant's legs and that troops were trained to let them pass so that they couldn't do much damage. One method used IIRC by Roman at Zama was also to make lots of noises with their war trumpets to confuse the elephants and possibly to drive them back against their own forces.

Back in school my history teacher told me that those elephants were often "stimulated" with drug-like stuff to be more agressive in battle, but that also became sometimes a problem when they went out of control and attacked their own troops. He also said as a last resort in such a case the rider then would drive a wedge through the elephant's head to kill him when he was uncontrollable (never checked that, but sounded ok back then).

Hm,
AFAIk at Zama the roman tactic was the thing you mentioned in your first sentence,
i.e. the romans had their cohorts spaced out so that the troops could step aside when the Elephants started their charge
and then just attack them from the sides where the Elephants could do no harm.
(AFAIK the main use of Elephants was in charge; as most armies consisted of large ranks of cohorts which normally weren´t very maneuverable Elephants charging the enemy lines could wkread havoc on the enemy troops [which, as you mentioned, also had an psychological impact, but it was very difficulty to alter the direction of the elephants when their charge had begun)

[BeBro]

Maybe they used both

Seriously, I remember reading about the trumpets it in a book some years ago - the German wiki article mentions both methods, the English only that they passed....

[Zulu Elephant]

Should I declare my interest?

[SlowwHand]

I would think that goes without saying.

[Chemical Ollie]

Getting a squad of war elephants or two is a must when playing "Rome Total War". A balanced and well used combination of elephants, some heavy infantry, a bunch of archers and some heavy artillery can defeat much bigger armies than your own.

(Now where is my 1+?)

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

I find flaming arrows take down Mumakil pretty quickly in Battle for Middle Earth.

[Heresson]

I've won many civ2 wars with elephants

[RGBVideo]

War elephants are afraid of fire. OTOH, people who have never seen elephants are even more afraid of war elephants. They were good at shocking infantry who hadn't seen them before, but disciplinely led troops quickly learned tricks to trap them. Funny how flaming arrows already came up, the only example I've read about was Romans using arrows set on fire.

Originally posted by snoopy369
IIRC elephants were more useful as transportation (ie, Hannibal) than as actual cavalry types.

He used them for troop transport? Sounds weird -- more info?

Originally posted by Heresson
I've won many civ2 wars with elephants

I usually go for Crusaders -- nothing funnier than surprising Kassiopeia's rapidly expanding, but badly defended (on an island, so makes sense early on) monarchy with few phalanxes by unloading four veteran crusaders from 2 tririmes right next to their 2nd most major city

[Barnabas]

horses were terrified of elephants

[RGBVideo]

well yeah, men learn faster than horses do

and before the stirrup, men weren't really the only ones in charge of cavalry movement

edit: can this be moved to the history forum?

[Impaler[WrG]]

Transport sounds dubious to me, an elephant would need a wider path then a horse and elephants being large are proportionaly weaker (for the same enginering reasons that an ant can lift 100's of times its own weight). Add in the huge quantities of food and I'm fairly shure they are a big impediment to an army.

Shock value was ofcorse huge, from what I've heard the elephants were driven forward to trample and disrupt the enemy infantry formation, then your own infantry could mop up the disorganized troops. Romans countered this by simply opening up lanes in their formations. The elephant could not be controled to the point of making int trample men when their was a path of lesser resistance avalible to it. So they go right down the lane and cant be turned around. Romans did this in the battle of Zama (sp?) ware Hanibal was decisivly defeated by scipio Africanas.

If I had been Hanibal and for forsight of the roman tactics my counter would be to group the elephants in pairs and connect them with a heavy Iron chain about as long as the roman units were wide. As the elphants advance the chain sweeps along about a foot off the ground knocking, tripping up and otherwise disorganizing their ranks. Oh and the chain has sharpened blades and barbed wire like spikes on it as well.

[Dis]

put flammable material on it as well and set it on fire.

[Impaler[WrG]]

Well if its just dipped in oil then its would probaly burn off too fast and run out before contact with the enemy. Rather I would equip some of the Elephants with thouse little forts on their backs filled will Maltoph coctails and guys pitching them off the sides into the middle of the roman formations.

[Zoid]

This thread should be in the History Forum!

[Dis]

or the civ4 forum.

Makes me think war elephants are rated too high in games such as civ3 and civ4. But if you make them weaker, there is no reason to build them.

[aneeshm]

Elephants were the most useful when they formed a solid , charging wall on a plane battlefield . Enemy troops would be totally crushed and trampled if a commander could manage an elephant wall charge .

[Provost Harrison]

I like the way that War Elephants in civ 4 require the ivory resource. Do you regenerate them from a tusk?

[Proteus_MST]

Originally posted by aneeshm
Elephants were the most useful when they formed a solid , charging wall on a plane battlefield . Enemy troops would be totally crushed and trampled if a commander could manage an elephant wall charge .

Perhaps they encountered the same problem that many of Hitlers Wunderwaffen (and more sophisticated tanks) had,
i.e. they were too rare (for example because they neeeded a long time to grow up and, of course, massive amounts of expensive food)

Originally posted by Provost Harrison
I like the way that War Elephants in civ 4 require the ivory resource. Do you regenerate them from a tusk?

Yep,
stick it into the ground and water it well
and then, after a while, elephants will grow out of it

[phoenixcager]

Originally posted by Japher
I'd think the transportation aspect of a War Elephant would be the most compeling reason to use them. Especially in a jungle where they would be able to plow through the brush, instead of having to clear as you go.

Sure you're not thinking of Oliphaunts?