Great General Strategy Discussion

[monkspider]

One of the more interesting additions to Warlords was the Great General. Over the months to come I'm sure we will see plenty of interesting discussions on the best way to spend your great general, various opening gambits for getting one, and so on. But what are your early thoughts on the utility of great general so far?

One strategy that I have found effective is to use your first Great General as a Warlord and give all the experience to just one unit. This will get it up to at least level five, and usually just a few points away from level six. I think if you are charismatic, it may take you directly to level six. This ensures you access to the heroic epic and west point for free, so long as you take good care of the unit and ensure it's survival. This way I can be sure to get heroic epic shortly after researching literature (which is more powerful than the military academy option that the GG offers).

If I do follow this approach, I typically find that using the Great Military Instructor for the second GG is usually not an attractive option since your first GG has ensured West Point. If you do have more than one killer production city, it can still be a good choice. Also, if you have West Point+military instructor+vassalage/theocracy/pentagon, you can start off with three promotions in that city! However, having a military academy in the same city as the heroic epic and west point can be extremely powerful and has been typically my preferred choice for the second GG.

I think that late-game GGs are best used as warlords since the military instructor/military academy options are most useful as long term investments. So to summarize, I like to use my first GG as a warlord, then use them as instructors/academies in the middle game, and warlords again in the late game. Of course, like all things in Civ IV, various circumstances may arise that would cause me to take a different path. What do you guys think? I haven't played as an Imperialist civ yet, and the strategy for GGs for those civs is likely to be entirely different.

[Blake]

I think that one of the first few GG's (I seem to generate a lot of them) should be used to get a Medic III, if you have an existing Medic II the exp can probably be shared over 2 units, if you don't have a Medic II it'll require the exp to all go to 1 unit (unless you're aggressive).
Medic III doubles heal rate in enemy territory (it's as fast as healing with Medic I in a friendly city) and this is exceedingly useful. What's more only one Medic III is typically needed and will never be lost, although if my military campaigns are particularly far-reaching I might get two. In any case I consider Medic III to be essential for any warmongering.

I'm quite fond of using very early GG's to settle in my capital and/or main military city, so units pop out with 5exp, this gives the luxury of lvl3 units without needing to run Vassalage or Theocracy. The attractiveness of this option may depend on how good of a Heroic Epic city I have lined up.

If I have a really nice HE city and/or are Charismatic I wont hesitate to mass settle my remaining GG's in one city, in order to pop out lvl5 units - it usually takes Westpoint to get them up to lvl5, though. Or I may run both Vassalage and Theocracy, which for charismatic gives a base exp of 7/8, a GG in any city then results in them popping out at lvl4. If you settle in a coastal city, all the better, because then you can pop out lvl4 boats - Flanking I and Nav I & II, really quite useful for Ironclads since move 4 Ironclads are very effective.

The "exp sprinkle" ability can be quite useful... I tend to ignore "Great Units" other than for the exp gained upon merging, a "Great Unit" tends to die unless you coddle it, and in that case it's not helping you win the war it's just a fancy mascot - that's what Medic III is for. Anyway getting back to merging, the exp sprinkle can be good to bring four 5exp units up to 10exp, also it's good to use the GG on a very obsolete unit like a chariot and upgrade it for free to a knight, or an elephant to cavalry... this way the free upgrade is guaranteed to be useful at least once and it's simply the smart thing to do compared with merging the GG with a modern unit.

Military Academies are I feel not effective. It's like a Forge which only works for military units, but you sacrifice a Great Person for it... I don't think I'd sacrifice a Great Person for a normal forge. Also it's useful in precisely the same cities as settling - those cities spending all their time pumping out units, and in my opinion settling is stronger, quality over quantity - lower unit upkeeps, you get Rep science and Sistine’s culture too from settled GG's. But still, if I generate a lot of GG's I might create one or two military academies in unusually high hammer cities (especially if I have no marble for Heroic Epic).

[monkspider]

Those are some great points to add Blake. You make some excellent arguements in regards to use of the great military instructors and medic III. I plan on trying your strategy of putting an emphasis on early instructors in my next game and see how it treats me.

[monkspider]

What do you think about the leadership promotion? I have been putting it on all of my warlord units so far, but I have some mixed feelings on it's usefulness. Though it may be because I have been "coddling" my warlords too much as you might say.

[asleepathewheel]

Originally posted by Blake
I think that one of the first few GG's (I seem to generate a lot of them) should be used to get a Medic III, if you have an existing Medic II the exp can probably be shared over 2 units, if you don't have a Medic II it'll require the exp to all go to 1 unit (unless you're aggressive).
Medic III doubles heal rate in enemy territory (it's as fast as healing with Medic I in a friendly city) and this is exceedingly useful. What's more only one Medic III is typically needed and will never be lost, although if my military campaigns are particularly far-reaching I might get two. In any case I consider Medic III to be essential for any warmongering.

That's really a fantastic game plan for the gg. I've been playing marathon only lately and rarely rarely see a gg, perhaps I'll go back to normal to get more. I think what I would do is use it on a unit one step below the rest of them, so that if something drastic happens it will be the last in line to defend. (I get a bit....careless on the assault sometimes)

[phlucas]

For what it's worth, in my first (and only) regular Warlords game, I used all my Warlords for warlording. Getting four more City Raider III Macemen can prove decisive in the gunpowder age after upgrading. I feel that settling for XP is worth it only if, as Blake says, you have a multitude of GGs; Getting more level 3 units is not as efficient as having a Medic III unit and Barrage-City-Raider-Tactics Trebuchet.

So the dividing line seems to be how many GGs you are going to generate. If you really get many, settling is a very attractive strategy, otherwise warlording seems better to me.

[snoopy369]

Outside of Genghis Khan (where I always promote of course ) I always either settle or build with my GGs. I don't find GG-led units to survive long enough to justify their existence; what's 20 more exp when I'm going to produce 20-30 units per city (at +2xp each). If I can settle one GG in each of my 4 main cities, that's 4 cities that produce tanks at 5xp without any wonders or civics...

[Kuciwalker]

With Cyrus I use the first to create a Tactics-Leadership-Flanking I-Flanking II horse unit (incredible survivability and xp gain ) and settle the rest of the GG's in one city. Add in Vassalage, Theocracy, and West Point and I can easily crank out high-level units.

[Philotas]

I've been using all my GG's in my production cities. Last game had a military academy and two instructors. City also had Heroic Epic and Ironworks. Pentagon in another city, civics set to Police State and Theocracy. I was pumping out Infantry units one per turn with 4 promotions.

[rah]

I guess the big question is what is the AI doing with them. Now when I start rolling over civs I want to finish even faster before they can take advantage of any GG's that they are generating.
Unless they don't show when you point at a stack, I'm not seeming them in the field so I can only assume that they are setttling them.
If they are, do you get them if you take the city?
Who has more experience with them here.

I'm using them on obsolete units for free upgrades early in the game. Beats disbanding them, because early on I never have the extra money to upgrade them.

[Thedrin]

While playing the Vikings scenario I got the message "[great leaders name] has dies in the field" so I assume that the AI is capable of creating warlords.

[rah]

The longer I've been waring with someone, I start seeing higher experienced troops so I assumed most are going to learning, but I haven't played that many games yet.

[Ghengis-Sean]

One thing to remember is that you can have multiple military advisors in a city. I'm playing a game as the Germans right now. I've built up a unit producing city, with the Heroic Epic and the Iron Works. I burned one GG to build a military academy and then turned the next 4 into miltary advisors. The end result being that by the time I got infantry I was able to crank out a +11xp infantry unit every turn.

And then I got Panzers

In hind sight, burning one GG for a Warlord unit would have been better, since It would have let me build West Point. But this is working well enough. remember to keep and eye out for the Pentagon and Red Cross wonders. And remember stables add xp too. I made some first aid cavalry that way.

One other thing, I turned most of my infantry into ghetto marines. 3 or 4 transports full infantry with amphibious is usually enough to over power a coastal town in the enemies rear.

And then you unload your panzers

[Philotas]

This expansion is a war-monger's wet dream...........

[rah]

I'm sure the builders aren't quite as thrilled with it. More features for the AI to attack with.

[gdgrimm]

I still haven't gotten a GG. Dang Marathon setting.

Anyway, the Advisor/Academy trade-off.....

At first glance, I'd lean towared Acadamies for warmongering, since strength in numbers is generally part of the offensive attack plan, and that's often best generated by multiple cities pumping out units fast.

For building/culture strategies, the Advisors may make more sense. It's likely that all your military will be built by only one or two cities anyway, and having them all highly promoted for defense/counter-attack may be of more value than building a lot of them.

[eris]

For my second ever Warlords game, I did pick Julius Ceaser to see what extra Great General points and Great Generals would do for me. Actually, I picked Imperialism for the cheaper Settler, but that is another discussion.

I am not the best warmonger, so take that into account; this is all strange territory.

I got four Great Generals total:

The first was rather early because of Imperialism I assume. I disagree with the reasoning of the OP and think that +25% military units is worth a lot. So, that first General became a Military Acadamy in what was targeted to be my unit city. (Not the capitol. That is for Ironworks and World Wonders.)

The second went into the Unit City (I may use that as a City name...) as an instructor. I like the idea of multiple military instructors and will remember that.

The third Great General went to upgrade a single Calvary unit. I decided I wanted West Point as soon as possible, and this was the extremely clever way I found to get a level 6 unit. Reading this thread, I guess I was re-inventing the obvious, but I felt good about it at the time. (It didn't hurt that I got a Great Engineer the next turn and finished off West Point immediately. Possibly not the best use of the Great Engineer, but I had more military faster. I like that!)

The fourth came a little late and went to the capitol to improve miltary since I was in full Invade-the-Enemy mode and wasn't chasing World Wonders anymore.

So, I had two wonderful military citiies and one very powerful Cavalry who became an even better Gunship. By the way, the graphic for a Warlord enhanced Gunship is kind of amusing. There is this General figure running to keep up with a helicopter as it flies across enemy territory. I didn't coddle the unit as a Calvary too much. It could eat Riflemen for breakfast with all the promotions it had. As a Gunship, it was awesome and fun to zip around enemy territory and kill most anyone standing around. At one point the enhanced Gunship was picking off Infantry that had been bombed to half strength while in the city. Meanwhile, the Tanks were slogging through Forest and Hills to catch up and take over the invasion.

When I got the first Great General, I did some serious thinking about whether I could get together 20 low level defenders (Warriors, Archers, etc) in one tile and give them each one point of enhancement. Then I would have 20 units that would upgrade free all the way to Mechanical Infantry. It was more management than I wanted and would have possibly left some cities at low defense levels for a moment. But I still wonder about it, and it still sounds like a tempting idea.

And I found myself less upset when I was invaded, something that usually causes panic. "They're inside my borders!! AAAACK!!" Now I catch myself thinking, "Oh goody! More Great General points!" For a builder, this is a wierd change of reaction.

[samspock]

I finished my first complete game yesterday (a bunch of false starts) and two of they ai's kept going to war with each other. I saw them both get a GG. I then declared war on one (Ghandi) just after he made peace with the Ottomans (which were owning him) and rolled over him quickly. In Delhi I found a military academy waiting for me! Soon after I noticed that I was not yet at domination (needed 68%, new limit?) and attacked the Ottomans. When I got Istanbul I found another Military Academy!

In that game I got two GG's myself, I settled one in my HE city and used the other to upgrade a level 6 Axeman to Rifleman for free.

[rah]

Originally posted by eris
When I got the first Great General, I did some serious thinking about whether I could get together 20 low level defenders (Warriors, Archers, etc) in one tile and give them each one point of enhancement. Then I would have 20 units that would upgrade free all the way to Mechanical Infantry. It was more management than I wanted and would have possibly left some cities at low defense levels for a moment. But I still wonder about it, and it still sounds like a tempting idea.

I thought only the unit you attached the GG to got the free upgrades. If that's not the case, I have lots of free upgrades to get.

[Forwarn45]

As Cyrus (imperialistic, charismatic) in my first game, I used the "sprinkle" with my first two warlords to bring 4 green, newly built units with 3 experience up to 8 experience. This moves them up from level 1 to level 3 units. It seems like a good move on a medium-sized map (which I'm playing) or smaller. Of course, having the cheaper promotions helps. It was not too hard to get some of those units up to level 4 through combat - and I didn't mind losing one or two.

[eris]

Originally posted by rah


I thought only the unit you attached the GG to got the free upgrades. If that's not the case, I have lots of free upgrades to get.

I have been re-reading the manual and I think you are right. It is only one unit that has the Warlord attached and gets the free upgrades.

[Arrian]

So far I've used my first GG to make sure I get the lvl5 unit required for the HE. That's a given, because I think the HE is a hugely useful building and it will typically take me a long time to get a lvl5 unit w/o the XP sprinkle.

So far I've been loading up on City Raider promos and the special added xp from battle promo. The Medic III, however... Blake makes a good point. I'll have to remember that.

My 2nd GG gets settled in my HE city, so that the city can produce 5XP unit. Later GGs... most likely the same. Build West Point, Pentagon and settle 4 GGs and presto, you've got level 5 units right off the assembly line. Yummy.

-Arrian

[Arrian]

Originally posted by eris


I have been re-reading the manual and I think you are right. It is only one unit that has the Warlord attached and gets the free upgrades.

Correct. Those units also upgrade w/o losing XP (whereas other units get dropped to 10XP), which is even nicer than saving some gold!

-Arrian

[PaganPaulwhisky]

I also think that the +25% military production is quite useful and a far better use of GG than attaching them to a unit, although I do like the idea of adding all experience to one unit to obtain HE or WP very early (since I try to do this anyway).

On monarch level the AI will have tons of units and a few warlords mixed into your troop supply will make very little difference. Besides there is really no use to having a very highly promoted unit if you are only going to use it to pick off wounded units with 99% success (I can do that with most any unit). I have always used my highly promoted units to fight the tough battles and then mop up with the others. I don't care if they die since I always build a high quantity of units. If I have a moderate chance of success then I attack. Sure I lose a lot of units, but I conquer territory very quickly.

I find that once I achieve military superiority then I can very easily crush any AI, thus military unit production is the key factor for me in domination games. I would at the very least build military academies in my HE and WP cities and then probably use the rest as instructors.

This expansion is a war-monger's wet dream...........

Hmmm, I wonder why they added the protective trait.

[Randolph]

Originally posted by Arrian


Correct. Those units also upgrade w/o losing XP (whereas other units get dropped to 10XP), which is even nicer than saving some gold!

-Arrian

Really?! So any unit that gets any XP from a Warlord will not lose XP when upgraded? Or do they just get the Warlord XP +10? If it’s the former that’s certain a significant point.

[Arrian]

Say you have a Maceman with a warlord attached. He's at 22/26 XP. You upgrade him to a Rifleman. He's still got 22/26 XP.

This is how I had a 49/50 XP Mechanized Infantry last night. I would've gotten him to 50, but I was just a border pop from domination anyway...

-Arrian

[Kuciwalker]

Only units with the Warlord attached get any bonuses, apart from the one-time XP sprinkle when you attach the Warlord to a unit.

[Randolph]

Ok, that makes more sense, so the "sprinkle units" lose XP when they are upgraded?

On different note, I’m a bit skeptical about the “there’s no point to a super-unit warlord if you only attack at 98%+ win chance.” If that unit has combat VI (+75% strength) it’s going to have a win chance in the high 90s in situations where other units would have only about a 75% chance. Add to that a high withdrawal chance, and it I would think you’d have a unit with significant survivability. I haven’t had a chance to play much (sounds like some people have), so maybe it just doesn’t work out this way for whatever reason.

[Philotas]

I think, like the other great people, you have to make the decision on a "as need" basis. Putting a great artist in a city will likely give you more total culture than using one as a culture "bomb", but that bomb may be what you need most at that time. Same with the great generals.....long term, a military instructor may give you more total unit experience, but possible that you would really need those extra 20 points on the field right then and there.

[Arrian]

Yes, the sprinkle units are normal units in all respects, besides the fact that they get some of the sprinkle XP.

I've babied my GG units a little bit (making sure I've got ~95% odds when attacking), but of course the more experienced they get, the easier it is to attain those odds.

Mechanized Infantry: City Raider III, Leadership, Combat 1, Pinch, Tactics. BadassMoFo.

-Arrian