StarCraft

DrSpike · January 25, 2006, 13:28

Prima guides are usually pretty awful, at least the ones I've seen.

lord of the mark · January 30, 2006, 15:53

i reinstalled this again this weekend, and started from the beginning.

DrSpike · January 30, 2006, 15:55

A good choice.

Elok · January 30, 2006, 18:00

Well, now that it's been bumped, I don't have to feel bad about mentioning that I'm now on Protoss expansion mission eight. It's looking tough just from the sheer number of the vermin and the delicacy of my starting position.

I intend to fight on through until I've beaten the Terran missions, and then probably call it quits, because I am now all but certain that I hate the freaking Zerg. I like aerial combat, I like being able to build what I want freely without a massive initial investment of time and money, I like lots of versatile special abilities, I like troops with staying power, I like siege weapons that can be moved in a hurry, and I like mobile detectors that don't have "shoot me" signs on their backs. And so on.

Barinthus · January 30, 2006, 18:32

Aw, come on!

Why not keep going until you've completed all missions?

Do you have brood wars?

Elok · January 30, 2006, 19:53

Yeah, that's what I mean by "the expansion missions." And I just really dislike playing as the Zerg. I might give them another shot, but they're just so clunky to play. Even with their new Lurker units, they have poor stealth attack capabilities, for example. No Dark Templar, Arbiters, Ghosts or Wraiths for them. Just a few mobile field traps, like weaker Sunken Colonies. And that's another thing; their defensive structures are so large and specialized that it's incredibly difficult to get good overlap. Lurkers will actually probably help in that respect; they could be used like DT defensively. But all the same...there are just so many awkward things about the Zerg. I know they're balanced in the long run, but I prefer more intuitive and individually-tough "civs."

Jon Miller · January 30, 2006, 20:05

Zerg is a very offensive race.

They are good to use to break the defensive mindset that some players of Terran and Protoss get into.

Jon Miller(
I prefer Zerg)

Elok · January 30, 2006, 20:19

Yeah, they're pretty offensive to me. Repulsive vermin...

I know they're ultimately balanced in many ways, like their ability to churn out tons of troops in a hurry for little cost. But their weaknesses are just a little too apparent. I mean, just four DTs at a base can slaughter an entire legion of Zerg invaders. By the time they bring in the Overlord half their force is already gone, and the Overlord doesn't stay for long because the Corsairs chase it down and kill it, fast. After, that is, one of them pauses to use disruption web on a group of Hydras to protect the Templar. Now, if they had a Comsat station or an Observer...or I guess they could use Ensnare more effectively, but the Corsairs usually chase off the Queens too, before they get a chance. And while a dozen Guardians can indeed quickly mow down entrenched defenses...half a dozen Reavers are even quicker about it, and they can be transported by Shuttles. Bottom line, I just don't like the constant-attrition style needed to win as Zerg. Others do, well, more power to them.

Kataphraktoi · January 30, 2006, 21:04

Without playing starcraft much, let me say that zerg are favoured in MP and have been toned down again and again to balance their zergling rush-discussing them as if they are weak looks a little funny...

Whoha · January 30, 2006, 21:56

Now a days people go random in multiplayer. ever since the spawn rate on larva was toned down, and the spawn pool increased in cost life is good. if you are expecting a zerg rush you can even mount a credable defense against it.

Elok · January 31, 2006, 09:38

Well, I'm not talking about MP, where you start with just a town hall building and four workers. I'm talking about the single-player missions, in which both sides already have at least some sort of base built up. Zergling rush just doesn't work in the missions. I should know, after all the AI's pitiful attempts, and my own. Hydralisks are the real danger, and eventually Guardians and Mutas. The Zerg are far easier to defend against than Terrans or Protoss in my experience.

Again, I should stress that I'm not what one would call a good player anyway. If you wish, you can say that the Zerg "require more skillful handling." By which I mean constantly churning out endless soldiers for a long, boring war of attrition. That does require skill, after a fashion (micromanagement). And an iron resolve. I play the game to have fun.

Whoha · January 31, 2006, 09:56

actually not, again in MP zerg requires the least control of all 3, just pump out your army and attack move them at the enemy base. But that is not to say that there aren't strategies(skillful use of zerg units can be quite frightening), or that zerg don't have durable units(ultras and devourers are both quite nice in broodwars).

DrSpike · January 31, 2006, 12:55

It's best to play all the campaigns - the races are very different, and this is a good thing.

In time you may learn to appreciate the zergy goodness.

Elok · January 31, 2006, 14:53

Huh? They'd better micromanage if they don't want to be completely sodomized. Their answer to Capital ships, the Scourge, are kamikaze one-shot wonders, and have to be constantly replaced to continue aerial warfare (unless you're very good with Defilers, which is another kind of MM). Overlords, as I noted, have to be used very carefully to avoid either your armies getting slaughtered by cloaked units on the one hand, or running out of control and shuttles as your detectors get splattered on the other. Plus, Zerg armies aren't exactly built for reuse, are they? You inevitably lose quite a few Zerglings in each rush, and then you have to rebuild them, in addition to waiting for the survivors to heal (which is roughly equivalent to Shield Battery recharges or Medics/repairs for the other players).

I know Ultras are durable, but since the Zerg have no quick-heal ability you have to either rotate out Ultras continuously or just use them continuously until they're finally offed. They're also one-trick ponies. Durability is all they have; twenty attack is hardly impressive, they're stuck on the ground, and they have no Yamato or interceptors (I think of them as the closest equivalent the Zerg have to Carriers and BCs).

Not much different from Archons, really, except that they can't butcher groups, be recharged in seconds, or defend against aerial attacks. Oh, and they're slower and higher up on the tech tree. In return, they're marginally cheaper, and also significantly more durable in terms of defense. But, when that durability keeps getting gradually whittled away and takes AGES to recover...the Zerg just aren't how I like to play, is all.

Devourers I haven't tried myself, but I'm told they have the slowest attack in the game, and function as rough equivalents to Corsairs and Valkyries--they smash enemy air units when properly used but have definite vulnerabilities.

Whoha · January 31, 2006, 16:25

"Huh? They'd better micromanage if they don't want to be completely sodomized. answer to Capital ships, the Scourge, are kamikaze one-shot wonders, and have to be constantly replaced to continue aerial warfare (unless you're very good with Defilers, which is another kind of MM). "

capital ships aren't so scary, its mainly the suprise. hydras with defilers, or mutalisks and devourers both do quite well against them. devourers, in addition to their normal attack(as good as a bc initially, but less per upgrade) can slow down an enemy ship's rate of fire to a little more then double the original cooldown, and make it take 9 more damage, or double for a hydralisk, and up to 4 times as much damage for a mutalisk.

"Overlords, as I noted, have to be used very carefully to avoid either your armies getting slaughtered by cloaked units on the one hand, or running out of control and shuttles as your detectors get splattered on the other."

overlord hunting does have to be accounted for(both at your base and out on the field), but it is not the insurmountable problem you make it out to be. with the speed upgrade, and the support of hydras on the ground your overlords should do ok.

"in addition to waiting for the survivors to heal"
a unit with 1 hp attacks just as well as a unit with full health.

and about ultras, in broodwars they got two new upgrades: an armor one, and more importantly a speed upgrade. they aren't defensive units though, sunkens are cheaper and better for that sort of work. Ultras can take fire while the rest of your expendable vermin get into position

Elok · January 31, 2006, 18:06

I'm not talking about Overlord "hunting," all I need is to chase the things away (doable by Corsairs in short order, as OLs automatically run) and, short of using a spell, the Zerg is incapable of overcoming some defensive Dark Templar. It can circumvent them by using air units to attack defenses, or it can aim for the PCs with Lurkers and hope the DT are in the way, but that's it. There's no denying that Overlords, compared to Comsat Scans + Science Vessels or Observers, are a joke. Well, the Observers could be chased away by PCs if they got too close, but they have enough sight range that it doesn't seem to be a problem. I haven't had a chance to try them with PvP yet (the one mission I've had vs. Protoss, the last one, was the "revolt" one in which the enemy couldn't use Dark Templars/DAs/Corsairs, and I've never seen it use Arbiter cloaks defensively), but certainly Observers do fine against defensive Wraiths.

I know Ultralisks are great at getting the enemy's attention while the zerglings pile on the real damage, and about their defensive boost tech in BW (I dug through the StarCraft Compendium a great deal while trying to play as the Zerg before). Certainly I'd never use them defensively; just look at all that hide for smaller units to spread around and attack, the lack of attack range, and their problems maneuvering in tight spaces! I know how to use them, and they are impressive, but I'd still much rather have Archons, lower defense or not. The Archon's two worst foes (swarms of smaller enemies and overlapping defensive structures) are shared by the Ultralisk, but the Ultra is also vulnerable to various spells and air units. I love my Archons. I suspect I'm not the only SC player who thinks of them as "bug zappers." They're bright blue and attack with what looks like electric shocks, for crying out loud.

Again, I'm sure there are uses for the Zerg, but they're just missing too many things I value for me to enjoy playing as them:

Capital Ships (I know they aren't invincible, but I find Carriers especially to be remarkably versatile in all kinds of situations, much more so than Ultralisks)
Convenient building system (replenishing drones constantly? Having to build a hatchery first?)
Balanced defensive structures (as opposed to two space-hogging, time-consuming, completely specialized defenses)
A variety of special abilities (Broodlings, Plague, Dark Swarm, and especially Parasite are fun, but...compared to PS, Lockdown, Mind Control, Irradiate, EMP, D-Matrix, Disruption Web, Yamato, Recall...)
Quick healing ability (Units with 1 HP are dead the moment anything with splash damage comes near, whether they can attack or not)
Stealth attack abilities (Lurkers just can't compare to DTs, Arbiters, Wraiths or Ghosts)
Effective stealth detection
True siege weapons

And I could probably think of more. I actually found the Protoss and Terrans to be very similar in terms of skills needed. It's the Zerg that are the odd ones out.

Barinthus · January 31, 2006, 21:28

Funny - I never had any problems with using Zergs. I used hydralisks entensively along with their flying units (forgot names).

Whoha · January 31, 2006, 22:55

"I'm not talking about Overlord "hunting," all I need is to chase the things away (doable by Corsairs in short order, as OLs automatically run) and, short of using a spell, the Zerg is incapable of overcoming some defensive Dark Templar."

If your ol are on a move order or are following units they won't run at the first attack.

"There's no denying that Overlords, compared to Comsat Scans + Science Vessels or Observers, are a joke"

I do deny it. Overlords are different units with different capabilities then the above. with an OL you can scout right at the beginning of the game before an enemy player has set up without sacraficing a drone. Later on they can do a lurker drop into the enemy base, and still later then that, the drop of doom, 12 or more OL loaded with units dropped in on an enemy base.

ultralisks and archons are also different units. an archon wouldn't have a hope in hell of even getting close to a terran metal push, but a speed upgraded ultralisk(who takes severely reduced damage from vultures) can get in close. archons are overall superior, but I'd rather have the two templar since zealots are fairly beefy and have the speed upgrade.

Maniac · February 1, 2006, 05:46

Originally posted by Elok
I like being able to build what I want freely without a massive initial investment of time and money

I'd say the Zerg require the least initial investment, and the Protoss the most, what with all their buildings.

Elok · February 1, 2006, 07:10

Originally posted by Maniac
I'd say the Zerg require the least initial investment, and the Protoss the most, what with all their buildings.

I meant on location. I can't build a sunken colony to defend an area while I build a hatchery, etc. I have to sacrifice one drone for a hatchery first, then another for a creep colony, then I have to wait to transform it to a sunken colony. Takes up a ridiculous amount of space too. Whereas the others can build whatever, whenever.

Overlords are inferior detectors, I mean. Great early scouts or not, they suck as a way of finding cloaked/burrowed units.

Jon Miller · February 1, 2006, 08:57

Overlords are huge. You aren't comparing them properly.

They should be compared to supply depots and pylons, as well as science vessels and observers...

Jon Miller

Whoha · February 1, 2006, 09:43

There is one last thing to consider, you start with overlords. there have been times where I've been bottled up in my base waiting for observers or sci vessels to come out.

Elok · February 1, 2006, 14:46

Originally posted by Jon Miller
Overlords are huge. You aren't comparing them properly.

They should be compared to supply depots and pylons, as well as science vessels and observers...

Jon Miller

And also shuttles and dropships, yes. But that just makes it worse from the perspective of detection; detectors tend to attract fire, and when you have a detector that's also a transport and a supply source, you can't really afford to risk them and the enemy knows it.

I admit their availability from the start is nice, but once the game picks up speed, they really can't compete, being both helpless and obvious.

EPW · February 1, 2006, 15:50

Originally posted by Elok

And also shuttles and dropships, yes. But that just makes it worse from the perspective of detection; detectors tend to attract fire, and when you have a detector that's also a transport and a supply source, you can't really afford to risk them and the enemy knows it.

I admit their availability from the start is nice, but once the game picks up speed, they really can't compete, being both helpless and obvious.

Dozens of fast dropships always at your disposel that also act as detectors are far from useless. The zerg save a ton of minerals by having one unit encompass three seperate functions.

The terran and protoss have to build seperate buildings to produce rather expensive transports that are no stronger than an over, have only one function, and are easy targets for anti-air units.

Elok · February 1, 2006, 18:39

Yes, but AS DETECTORS, they are inferior. All three races have some kind of hybridization of roles; the Science Vessel is both the Terrans' "aerial spellcaster" unit and their detector, two duties which reinforce each other nicely, as the SV has ways to hurt the cloaked enemies when it finds them. The Observer is useful just because it's invisible itself, so it's all but impossible for the enemy to tell he's being spied on. The Overlord can't hide and it can't fight back in any way. Its multiple purposes are just three good reasons to kill the unit quickly, all wrapped up in one neat package. As a transport with detection abilities, it can see the Wraiths that shoot it down regardless of whether they're cloaked. I guess that saves you the bother of escorting them with a detector plus fighters, but, uh, Observers aren't exactly expensive anyway, Science Vessels are but they're nice to have along just for their abilities, and having spies you can afford to lose can be a plus.

Whoha · February 1, 2006, 20:25

You'll just have to trust us that Zerg makes out fine in MP

. detection is the last thing you want to lose during a battle, and 8 ols do have a lot of health going for them.

Urban Ranger · February 2, 2006, 01:59

Originally posted by Kataphraktoi
The manual that comes with the game,i must say, is a lite book on its own.

The maual is good, the game is rotten. At least the single player campaign is rotten, and I don't play MP.

Urban Ranger · February 2, 2006, 02:06

Originally posted by Whoha
You'll just have to trust us that Zerg makes out fine in MP

.

The Zergs got speed. You don't need to build the units one by one. They, um, grow. Speed is what makes them terrifying. Individually speaking, Zerg units are sub-par.

EPW · February 2, 2006, 02:06

Originally posted by Urban Ranger
The maual is good, the game is rotten. At least the single player campaign is rotten, and I don't play MP.

Elok · February 2, 2006, 09:59

Oh, I don't deny that they're useful; I know there are a LOT of Zerg players, enough to spawn the useful phrase "OMG zerging=teh gay!!!1!1!" with their infuriating swarm tactics. I just uh, don't think the Zerg are the right race for my needs. Or some other bland phrase for "not my cup of tea."