question

[Flubber]

Originally posted by Kataphraktoi
I was more referring to SP

True-- IN SP I have won the nomad challenge as the cult-- Thats where you try to win without ever building a base. Its largely luck since I can't figure out a way to do it if there is no existing land route to one of the factions . Well they could surrender from afar or a volcano or terraforming or a popped foil could do it.

I think my nomad victories ended in 2160ish

[CEO Aaron]

Originally posted by d=me
That site recommends Dem/Planned/Wealth for the university. But what about the efficiency when you use planned? And which future society should I choose? The guide didn't say. I guess it's cybernetic? http://www.civgaming.net/smac/acad_se.shtmlIf I use planned then I can't be friends with morgan.

Don't get too excited about efficiency, especially in the early game. While having an efficient empire lets you have more bases without bureaucracy drones and saves some wasted energy due to corruption, the industry and growth bonuses from Demo/Planned/Wealth are HUGE. With creches, your bases can be in a constant state of population boom, which means that your population will come to match your ability to feed it in relatively short order. What can you do with this population? Employ specialists! With crawlers hauling in nutrients from condenser farms, your workers working boreholes, and your specialists providing credits and labs, you'll achieve the highest output per square possible in this game, all while fundamentally ignoring the University's crippling weakness, extra drones, because specialists cant' be drones.

Oh, and as for being friends with Morgan, so what? Faction leaders don't have friends only rivals and subjects. The sooner you piss Morgan off, the sooner you can roll over subjugate him.

[d=me]

Originally posted by Flubber


Never farm +mine-- argghhh

General rules

Forest is good
Farms on rainies or nutrient bonuses
Mines or boreholes on rocky tiles
Solar collectors infrequently

Generally the idea is that you might work forests and boreholes and maybe a farm/solar combo and you will always crawl mines on rocky tiles and often crawl food

I tried to plant forests everywhere but I'm not getting enough untrients to allow a pop growth. My univ base was stuck on size 3. So that means that I have to build farms to allow the population to grow right? And why not mine and farm? If the square says (2 nutrients with farm, 2 minerals with mine, 1 energy with solar collector.) Then why build the solar collector and not the mine?

[Kirov]

Originally posted by d=me
I tried to plant forests everywhere but I'm not getting enough untrients to allow a pop growth. My univ base was stuck on size 3. So that means that I have to build farms to allow the population to grow right? And why not mine and farm? If the square says (2 nutrients with farm, 2 minerals with mine, 1 energy with solar collector.) Then why build the solar collector and not the mine?

First of all, mines decrease farm nut output by one. Which means that on a rolling/most tile you get 1 nut/2 min after 12 turns of terraforming (farm + mine)! It's way better to build a farm alone (with or without solar collector) and add a condenser when you research EcoEng, for a total of 5 nuts harvested by a crawler.

Secondly, mines should be built _only_on rocky squares in midlans(4 mins with a road). Again, crawler is your choice here.

For coastal rocky tiles it's still better to build a borehole and work it normally, unless there's a mineral bonus (which gives 7 mins with a mine and road).

[d=me]

If I ran democratic then won't the secret projects take even longer to build due to the support cost?

If I don't build mines wher am I going to get the minerals that I need for building anything? and if I planted forests the bases won't grow. And I don't get crawlers at the beginning of the game.

And when should I plant forests and not farm+solar? Like on a river square should I plant a forest or farm+solar?

[d=me]

I just lost the human genome project to the gaians because I ran democratic.

[Kirov]

By and large, there are two terraforming strategies: 'condensers & boreholes' (the one that I described) and 'forest & forget'. Of course, it's not actually the matter of choice, as you should combine these strategies to get the best out of both.

Basically, until IA and without WP (I never assume I'll get it), I plant farms with occasional collectors on rainy tiles, preferably rolling ones. All arid and almost all moist get forested.

As it usually turns out, on the left (western) side of the hill I forest most rainy/flat tiles (leaving rainy/rolling for farming), while on the eastern side very often I have to farm even moist ones. Rivers on rainy/moist tiles usually deserve farm + collector. Otherwise - forest.

This way I have 1-2 farms per base, which means it can support up to 4,000 citizens, 2k of them working farms and the rest - forests. At this point is more than enough for my quasi-ICS gamestyle (I ICS 1x1 until I get ~25 bases, give or take 5).

Now, upon researching IA I usually continue foresting and mining rocky tiles for crawlers, to boost industry output. Meanwhile I can b-line to Gene Splicing, upon which more rainy tiles can be farmed (even those previously forested).

With EconEng those farmed tiles get condensers, while suitable (mostly coastal) tiles - boreholes. At that time I need also a lot of formers to raise terrain. However, as Tree Farms are now so close, usually I don't chop down most of them forests, unlike some players who prefer the grid of condensers and boreholes with virtually no woods.

I almost never build echelons and usually have better things to do than drill to aquifer. The former are useful only for so-called 'energy parks' - vast areas raised to 3k+ height and covered with collectors and echelons. I tried to do that several times and figured it's so terraform- and crawler-consuming that it renders it completely ineffective, interesting solely for aesthetical reasons.

Hmm, I guess that would cover my terraforming strategy.

Another important thing to keep in mind throughout the whole game, especially the beginning, are special resources. They are not just tiles slightly better than others, they should affect your base placement and their profile. Make them fit your general picture.

nutrient resource - condenser
min resource on rocky - mine
min resource on rolling/flat - forest
enery resource - farm + collector

I guess special landmarks don't need much elaboration, do they?

[Kirov]

Originally posted by d=me
If I ran democratic then won't the secret projects take even longer to build due to the support cost?

Remember to b-line to IA in the first place, which means that you get crawlers faster than democracy. Explore and pop pods to find AAs. Disband Battle Ogres and prototype units if needed. Whenever you're just about to pop a pod, switch production in your nearest base to the most expensive prototype, esp if it costs an arm and leg.

With all this stuff at hand, SP building should be not a problem with or without Demo, which all in all is not very useful anyway before you have finished to expand.

Wait with that until you're ready to popboom, otherwise that Effic and Growth are not worth the Support hit.

[Kataphraktoi]

If I don't build mines wher am I going to get the minerals that I need for building anything? and if I planted forests the bases won't grow.

And when should I plant forests and not farm+solar? Like on a river square should I plant a forest or farm+solar?

Lets look at some stats here: a forest gives 2 minerals and 1 each of food and energy. now,a mine reduces nutrients on a tile by 1 and adds a mineral,ussualy with 2 minerals as a result. your former can make a forest in 4 turns,whereas a mine takes 8 and it dosnt grow,either. Mines on rocky tiles give 4, but until you get ecological engineering, a tech that should be gotten after IA, mines give less resources. more population=more unhappy people. let the base be small, for now.

A solar gives +1 energy,same as a forest,and no minerals. it also takes 8 turns to build. there is no reason to build collectors although you can use them with mirrors later for profit. forget them for now. the one time its OK to use them would be on an energy special.

And I don't get crawlers at the beginning of the game.

By the 2120\30s you should have them,and your formers should have layed down vast unused forests to work on. If your playing univ,you could have IA in 2114.

if I ran democratic then won't the secret projects take even longer to build due to the support cost?

I suggest you examine this article quite closely. vels strategy guide may also have some use, but take with some salt...

My univ base was stuck on size 3

sounds good to me.whats the problem?

[Flubber]

Originally posted by Kataphraktoi


more population=more unhappy people. let the base be small, for now.

I agree that your bases should be small early but that because you should be popping out yet another colony pod. I want a couple of bases that are either crawling food or producing lots so that they can grow quickly so another colony pod can be sent out

[binTravkin]

My univ base was stuck on size 3

Indeed, what are you itching about?

This should make a common SMAC joke:

- my univ base is stuck on size 3
- sounds good to me. whats the problem?

[d=me]

Gaians always gets the Weather paradigm. But they didn't actually seem to build any of the advanced enhancements. And for the planetary governer, it's the best to choose the weaker faction right? I chose law and mariam took over all of his bases and he would be captured if I didn't give one of my newly founded bases to him. If gaians were governer then they will get too strong.

[d=me]

How come the factions are all so aggressive? Like intense fury there should be one where they act more rationally.

[Kataphraktoi]

How come the factions are all so aggressive? Like intense fury there should be one where they act more rationally.

Playing at your low difficulty you had set, getting pacts all around the table is a piece of cake. additionaly you had few SE choices set, so diplomacy is even easier.

Gaians always gets the Weather paradigm. But they didn't actually seem to build any of the advanced enhancements. And for the planetary governer, it's the best to choose the weaker faction right? I chose law and mariam took over all of his bases and he would be captured if I didn't give one of my newly founded bases to him. If gaians were governer then they will get too strong.

If gaia always gets the weather paradigm, that means you are way to slow to build crawlers! as univ you can get any particular SP before the AI does. did you read that rushing-SP article i linked you to? as for planetary governer, you yourself should be governer. failing that, choosing gaia is good. they are a friendly faction to me often, and if not are mostly builders and no immediate threat.

you should try playing the game on a large sized world with 30-50% land. build lots of bases, crawlers,and formers and you should have a lot less problems

[d=me]

So is an ocean map harder to play? The gaians declared war on me for over 5 times now and always pledges for truce when I took over one of her bases. I allowed her truce because she is right beside me and I have nearly 100 clean air planes. But mariam and santiago and yang are a problem because they are located on the other side of the map and my units can't reach there with out the ships getting badly damaged on the way. How do you deal with them? I'm waiting for the space elevator so I can just drop beside her base.

I could have gotten the WP but I chose the human genome project and the virtual world over it. I got 2 in the beginning where she only got one. And now my map is filled with advanced enhancements already because the tech was researched long ago so the WP doesn't seem to matter now.

[d=me]

I'm kind of overwhelmed here. Santiago, mariam, yang and the gaians are against me. Mostly the gaians, because the other ones are reall far away and they are all fighting amonst them selves. But the gaians have too many bases for my units to take and hold (can't leave a base empty right?). That's why when I took over a couple of her bases I always agree to her truce so I can pump out more clean tychon bolt penetrators and interceptors. Those planes takes 7 turns to build. That's too long.

[Kataphraktoi]

100 clean air planes

wait a second.why cant you just whipe them off the map?assuming 50 of those are not interceptors thats 25 units killed a turn. they cant have that many troops to sustain that past a few turns, even on boosted ai maps

you should be moving very swiftly taking bases every other turn and pushing at them constantly. some choppers would be good for units outside bases, and in bases if AAA is light enough. sitting back and consolidating dosnt work at all. most modern troop deployment is focused around a blitzkrieg attack, wherein you overrun the enemy. you sound like your using trench warfare almost like that.

[d=me]

Originally posted by Kataphraktoi


wait a second.why cant you just whipe them off the map?assuming 50 of those are not interceptors thats 25 units killed a turn. they cant have that many troops to sustain that past a few turns, even on boosted ai maps

you should be moving very swiftly taking bases every other turn and pushing at them constantly. some choppers would be good for units outside bases, and in bases if AAA is light enough. sitting back and consolidating dosnt work at all. most modern troop deployment is focused around a blitzkrieg attack, wherein you overrun the enemy. you sound like your using trench warfare almost like that.

Problem is that most of them are obsclete. That's what I meant at the beginning of the thread. Most of them are chaos jets, and they seem to be losing badly against the silksteel sentinels (many of them are AAA) inside the bases with premiter defences. And she has like over 20 bases. So I can't take over them all because I can't do it plus she has jets too. And out of that 100 there are only half that are penetrators and the rest are interceptors because santiago keeps attacking from the other side with needlerjets. That's the problem, my units aren't keeping up with the tech advances. Everyone else has silksteel as the best but they kept up and all of their units are silksteel sentinels. I have probability armour, but I only managed to build one in univ base. The rest of the bases are pupming out clean tachon penetrators. It takes 7 turns to build one of those jets. Again, that's the problem I mentioned in the beginning, production is far behind the tech. And yang and mariam and santiago are too far away for the jets to reach. It's the largest default map.

[Kataphraktoi]

select the unit and hit 'control+u' to upgrade your chaos needles to tachyon needles. add nerve gas or soporiphic gas or both for maximum punch. AAA+aerospace can still stop that, but not with tachyon vs silksteel. only keep a half-dozen units as X for the most heavily defended bases, as global warming could put you in the water fast on those island maps you play.

take a transport or 5 and fill them with rovers and use a needlejet on top of the transport to escort it to enemy bases. alternate needlejets to keep on above the transport at all times, or until the enemy has no air force.

100 needlejets.i thought that was a typo. what do they have, 20 AAA in each base? you should be able to overwhelm anything with that, esspecialy if you upgrade them like i said

[Leon Trotsky]

Originally posted by Kataphraktoi
100 needlejets.i thought that was a typo. what do they have, 20 AAA in each base?

If that were the case, I'd say it's time to give my favourite military doctrine a chance.

"God fights on the side with the best artillery."
- Napoleon Bonaparte

[d=me]

Originally posted by Kataphraktoi
select the unit and hit 'control+u' to upgrade your chaos needles to tachyon needles. add nerve gas or soporiphic gas or both for maximum punch. AAA+aerospace can still stop that, but not with tachyon vs silksteel. only keep a half-dozen units as X for the most heavily defended bases, as global warming could put you in the water fast on those island maps you play.

take a transport or 5 and fill them with rovers and use a needlejet on top of the transport to escort it to enemy bases. alternate needlejets to keep on above the transport at all times, or until the enemy has no air force.

100 needlejets.i thought that was a typo. what do they have, 20 AAA in each base? you should be able to overwhelm anything with that, esspecialy if you upgrade them like i said

What is X for most heavily defended bases? I only built one thermal borhole and the rest echlon mirrors because of the fear of golbal warming. I don't have pact bases on the way for airplanes to refuel. they will crash before they get to the enemy bases. What is AAA+ aerospace? And I don't even have time to build satellites because all bases are busy pumping new jets. And upgrading, doesn't that cost like a million dollars? Or is there a discount when you upgrade a bulk? I only have a few thousand dollars in stock.

[d=me]

Originally posted by Kataphraktoi

100 needlejets.i thought that was a typo. what do they have, 20 AAA in each base? you should be able to overwhelm anything with that, esspecialy if you upgrade them like i said

Actually it's 100 planes. Just over a half of them are ground assault planes. Rest are interceptors.

[Kataphraktoi]

What is X for most heavily defended bases? I only built one thermal borhole and the rest echlon mirrors because of the fear of golbal warming. I don't have pact bases on the way for airplanes to refuel. they will crash before they get to the enemy bases. What is AAA+ aerospace? And I don't even have time to build satellites because all bases are busy pumping new jets. And upgrading, doesn't that cost like a million dollars? Or is there a discount when you upgrade a bulk? I only have a few thousand dollars in stock.

What is X for most heavily defended bases?

i refer to deploying nerve gas only when needed, IE the most heavily defended pearl harbours they have. this is to prevent massive global warming

I only built one thermal borhole and the rest echlon mirrors because of the fear of golbal warming.

global warming isnt going to get you. it is not a reason to avoid making boreholes densely

I don't have pact bases on the way for airplanes to refuel. they will crash before they get to the enemy bases.

i thought you said you were attacking the gaians with planes? make seabases if you need to attack long-ranged oponents

What is AAA+ aerospace?

aerospace complexs give a 100%+ defence bonus vs air units, and AAA gives another 100%+ (to the units base armour) so as you see a AAA+aerospace base is heavily defended

And I don't even have time to build satellites because all bases are busy pumping new jets

needlejets are highly survivable, and i rarely lose any significant ammount of them, except in MP.i dont remember mentioning satelites anyway. you shouldnt need to make replacements with upgrading older air units.

And upgrading, doesn't that cost like a million dollars? Or is there a discount when you upgrade a bulk? I only have a few thousand dollars in stock.

no, that method of upgrading only does one unit at a time. with 'a few thousand dollars' you could easily turn your force of 'obsolete' units into a formidable group, one that would be able to take out anything the AI can field. 100 jets +3000 EC= game over. your facing a unit deployment problem more than a lack of troops and money. i know looking at your savs your just not agrressive enough with your units.there were guys crawlling all over sparta in that game you uploaded, that were target practise. you need to send out jets to find those units, as you may not realize they exist beneath the fog of war.

you also NEED to turn on 'check combat strength' in the options menu to avoid suicide attacks by your hapless units. some guy in a PBEM game i picked up had this off and i lost a few of my best troops on attacks i didnt know they would attempt. this helps greatly in air recon

[d=me]

What about the marine boats? Are they any good? I have never seen any of them in action. does that allow like a tiny laser skimship to take over a cruiser?

What do you mean by global warming not getting me?

I don't have a range problem with the gaians, it's with the other 3 (sparta, hive, believers). They are too far away for me to attack.

The chaos needlejets were like eggs smashing on a wall against those gaians with their silksteel sentinels. I only had just over 50 needler jets and I lost 10 chaos jets on a base with 3 silksteel sentinels and a former in it. Then my rover rushed in and took it but that was 10 jets for that 1 base. She has over 10 bases.

So upgrading in a bulk is cheaper? But if I upgrade now and spent all of the money what if later something like plasma shard came out and I don't have the money for that because I spent it all now?

And about the nerve gases, if I do that I'll loose my trade, then what about the energy income which upgrading requires and the research?

The check combat strength thing, is that the menu with the probablity ratio of winning?

And she (Gaian) also has her own jets and a few interceptors. And the spartans are coming in from the sea once in like 5 turns with some jets.

[Leon Trotsky]

Originally posted by d=me
I don't have a range problem with the gaians, it's with the other 3 (sparta, hive, believers). They are too far away for me to attack.

If they are too far away, what is the problem? It seems they aren't an imminent threat. Can we all just get along?

...sorry, I'm a Peacekeeper at heart. Won't happen again.

I guess I'm too much of a bleeding heart to go for a Conquest victory, but if that is what you are up to, fine. The problem is, in my humble opinion, that you are trying to play a warmonger's game with a builder approach. In the scenario you present, and since you have already angered most voters, I suggest waiting for a transcendance victory. Either that, or try to negotiate peace, and hope you get enough population to be elected as a Supreme Leader.
You may still take over the world, but it looks as you have lost the momentum (as of 2100). If you continue the attrition war, well, why not building a few ships and destroying improvements near their capital and neighborings? It's not like you were going to get those bases anyway.
By the way, you ARE making good use of your probe teams, aren't you? If you can't deal with them, make them join you. And, while you are at it, snatch some valuables.

[PJayTycy]

d=me, why don't you just try to follow kataphraktoi's advice ???

Everytime you come back here, asking a new question while ignoring the answers he gave you last time.

We all know the gaians are close and the others are angry (but far away). So, for now, in short:
=> forget about the others, concentrate on the gaians
=> turn on "check combat odds before attacking"

now, first 2 / 3 turns:
=> send in penetrators and destroy all gaian units outside bases. If you encounter some unit with heavy odds against you, chose an other victim for now.
=> Upgrade a few penetrators and go kill those units you didn't kill in this turn in the next turn. (They probably won't be able to move, due to your aircover)
=> Make sure to destroy all sensors near the first few bases with your penetrators.
=> Make sure you have a few probe teams and rovers (start building them if you haven't) for a ground force.

next few turns :
Try to clear all gaian units out of the bases with your penetrators and move in with a rover. If the combat odds are against your penetrators, try the following :
=> upgrade them and try again
=> send in probe teams to sabotage (untill you take out the perimeter defense & aerospace complex)
=> if the odds are still (pretty heavy) against you, get over it and use nerve gas.
Now you should be able to kill each defender with 2 planes maximum. Move in the rover to capture the base.

Maximum time to prepare (ie: building enough probe teams and rovers and moving them up to the gaian empire) = +/- 5 turns (2 turns building, 3 turns moving)
After that, take at least 2 or 3 bases each turn and in 15 years the gaians should be dead.

[d=me]

Originally posted by Leon Trotsky


If they are too far away, what is the problem? It seems they aren't an imminent threat. Can we all just get along?

...sorry, I'm a Peacekeeper at heart. Won't happen again.

I guess I'm too much of a bleeding heart to go for a Conquest victory, but if that is what you are up to, fine. The problem is, in my humble opinion, that you are trying to play a warmonger's game with a builder approach. In the scenario you present, and since you have already angered most voters, I suggest waiting for a transcendance victory. Either that, or try to negotiate peace, and hope you get enough population to be elected as a Supreme Leader.
You may still take over the world, but it looks as you have lost the momentum (as of 2100). If you continue the attrition war, well, why not building a few ships and destroying improvements near their capital and neighborings? It's not like you were going to get those bases anyway.
By the way, you ARE making good use of your probe teams, aren't you? If you can't deal with them, make them join you. And, while you are at it, snatch some valuables.

What? This is completely out of context. The AIs are so aggressive that they ALL declared war on me by making tech and energy demands. Except for santiago she tried to frame me with her probe teams. I am the planetary governer. But that doesn't remove the AI factions automatically. I WAS going for trancend victory but they declared war on me and the gaians launched a suprise attack on me.


Payjay,
Those clean gas tychaon planes takes 7 turns to build on 15 minerals per turn. Rovers are faster to build but they are more vulnerable because when they kill the unit in the base they have no more moves left and they are sitting out side the base to wait to attack then when it's gaians turn she can use her obsclete jets to take out the rovers.

[PJayTycy]

Originally posted by d=me
Payjay,

It's PJay

Those clean gas tychaon planes takes 7 turns to build on 15 minerals per turn.

You said you have 100 planes (50 penetrators) ready now. Use them. Why are you complaining about the number of turns it takes to build them if you have 50 already ?

Rovers are faster to build but they are more vulnerable because when they kill the unit in the base they have no more moves left and they are sitting out side the base to wait to attack then when it's gaians turn she can use her obsclete jets to take out the rovers.

The rovers don't need to attack anything, they only have to take bases. Best is to build the cheapest drop rovers you can. Empty the bases with the planes and move in the rovers to capture it. Oh, and protect your rovers en-route by placing a needlejet above it.


I get the impression you just don't want to attack.

[BlackCat]

@dm=e : could you please post a save ? I'm very curious to see why you can't just steamroll the gaians.

Looking at your previous saves, I tend to agree with PJay - you don't want to attack.

[d=me]

The chaos penetrators are too weak against the AAA silksteel in the bases. Takes 3 planes to take out one of those sentinels. The tachyon penetrators never lost to one of those but they become badly damaged after one attack and have to rest in the base for a couple of turns to heal that is if the gaians didn't take out in midair. And I only have 5 of them. I don't have drop rovers yet. Now upgrading costs too much. It's like 60 dollars a plane. The worst thing is that my production is lagging far behind my tech capabilities. Or else gaians would be gone already.