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Thread: I am trying to bring back Diplogames...

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    bumout
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    I am trying to bring back Diplogames...

    Hey everyone, I don't know if any of you remember me or not (or are even the same people), but I am the Capo from the Diplogames.

    The reason I am using this name is because my other one was deactivated and there is some strange process I have to go through and didn't feel like doing at one in the morning.

    I want to try and get together some guys who are willing to play in a Diplogame using Civilization IV. The last one I was in was HOTW2. That game was pretty amazing up until the end when everyone started arguing and it ended in a mess, but deity remembers it (hopefully fondly), and commented to me that Civ IV is pretty good for a Diplogame right out of the box. So if any of you are interested in setting one up, or want to know exaclty what a Diplogame entails please respond here. If you don't give a **** just ignore this, thanks.

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    deity
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    Good one Capo.

    Get Frank & ozzy in the loop and see what we can come up with. Maybe a scenario - still playing with the settings so maybe we need a little time to work out the best for diplos. I think Trev would be interested too if he gets his comp working And a few other Aussies like Mike might be in too.

    USA Sat night (Aussie Sundays) would work best I reckon.
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    OzzyKP
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    Well I've no longer got a social life, so that means my schedule is free for a game. I think we should strike while the fire is hot and while interest in the game is high but people haven't settled into any familiar patterns yet.

    Lets introduce this new/old style of playing to them and see if we can spark a whole new generation of diplogamers.

    USA Sat nights work just fine for me.

    btw, anyone reading this thread who is curious what a diplogame is, check out this thread: http://apolyton.net/forums/showthrea...hreadid=101988

    So who've we got?

    Deity - China
    Ozzy - Indians
    Capo - Romans
    Ljube - Russians
    Frank Johnson - Mongols
    Trev - Mali
    Deity Dude
    .....[your name here]
    Last edited by OzzyKP; November 15, 2005 at 20:36.
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    OzzyKP
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    As resident diplogame map guru, I checked out the prepackaged world map for Civ4, and I really like it, but its way too big for our purposes. Seven or even 10 civs on a map that size is going to leave a helluva lot of empty space.

    I'll see what I can find.

    I'm thinking of being either the Indians or Chinese. I made a nice map for Civ3 and was all geared up for our first Civ3 diplogame a year ago as the Indians, but it didn't work out, so it'd be nice to give them a shot.

    Edit: Well its too early for there to be any maps available yet, so I started working on one a bit myself. My plan was to take a screen shot of the default world map, drop it in photoshop and then color code all the terran features so I can convert it back into a map with smaller dimensions.

    Then I realized that Rhye (the guy who designed the world map) probably still has all his .bmp files from it. If he could send me those I could build the map MUCH easier. Or he could just do it himself.

    So I asked him, I'll let you know when I hear back from him.


    edit2: He said he is taking a break from civ so isn't doing any more maps right now, and he can't give out the bitmaps cause they are copyright or something.. meh. I'll get on making one myself, its just gonna take some work.
    Last edited by OzzyKP; November 6, 2005 at 12:33.
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    Deity Dude
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    I'd be interested probably but I have to get the game working first

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    OzzyKP
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    Hurry up!

    Anyone see Rasputin these days?
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    Capo di tutti Capi
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    Thumbs up My logins will change for a bit until I get "The Capo" back...

    This all sounds good to me so far, but I'd like a little time to familiarize myself with the game before I start playing again.

    I just got it the other day, and I have a broken arm right now that will be healed in about two more weeks. Its my rotator cuff. I'm basically asking for about two weeks before we start, then we can figure out scheduling issues. Also I think having a large map may be a good thing if there's a way we can delay the progress of the game (i.e. technology, years per turn etc.).

    I have only played it for around twenty minutes so far actually and I haven't really been around the game too much (including right now), so I'd like to at least slightly improve and develop a better understanding before I play a good Diplogame.

    By the way everyone, sorry for my absence, it was long and I missed playing MP during that time. I've been playing a lot of Civ3 though, which I really didn't like at first but it grows on you after a while.

    Peace.

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    Akaoz
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    Pardon my ignorance: What's a Diplo game? Diplomacy ported to CIV?
    "Build Ports when possible. A port gives you extra resources, as well as an extra tile for a unit to stand on." - Infogrames

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    Capo di tutti Capi
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    A diplogame is...

    This question is more difficult for me to answer now than it was when we first started diplogaming.

    If you want an in depth answer visit the Civ2 Multiplaying forums, Ozzy put together a good reference guide for anyone who wants to get involved in diplogames or simply learn what they are all about.

    For a short answer though; a diplogame is one in which the normal civilization achievments are replaced with attempting to achieve a realistically diplomatic game. This involved a lot of "diplomacy" (treaties formulized by the game's players, propoganda, power-treaties etc.), its an attempt to recreate real-life diplomatic situations rather than basing them purely on Civilization game engines.

    Its a little hard to explain.

    They're fun to play, but I must warn anyone who wants to try it out for the first time; its very time consuming and involves a lot of attention.

    Sorry I couldn't get into it more, but my arm's broken so it sucks to type a lot.

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    OzzyKP
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    Its like a civ role-playing game. We don't just play, we act out our characters and leaders and develop intricate stories for each one (and write those stories out on the forum). So we behave like real leaders do (or try to).

    As Capo said, check out the Diplogame FAQ, I posted a link to it above. Also for a good example of how one of these games looks, check out the History of the World 2 game that is saved in the DiploFAQ.

    We always welcome new players.

    btw Capo, 2 weeks is fine, I'm sure it'll take that long to get players confirmed, decide on settings, get the map created, etc. Plus I'm going out of town for much of this week.
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    OzzyKP
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    Someone made a smaller map (whew, saved me some effort), I still need to check it out and test whether it is suitable for us. And then clean it up a bit (to fit to my exacting attention to detail). But I think we've got a real good lead. If not, then I've got the .bmp files that I can use to resize it if need be. I'll check it out today.
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    Capo di tutti Capi
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    Question Damn log-in...

    I'm still trying to fix my log-in problems, but alas...

    Ozzy I just want you to know that you should do whatever you need to do, usually your maps have been superb and I don't see any reason why that should change now.

    I would also like to ask whether or not its too premature to call the Romans as my tribe?

    Anyone have a problem with this?

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    OzzyKP
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    Not too premature. You might want to take a look at the map though, Italy is rather small. Of course you'd have access to the rest of Europe which is pretty nice. But yea, I've been working on the map for way longer than I should have today considering I'm flying to California tomorrow. But its nearly done.

    I just need to place the strategic resources and it should be ready to go. Civ4 has one buttload of resources, so that takes a lot of balancing for a perfectionist like me.

    The size is perfect. The look of it was a bit shabby in some places when I got it (Europe looked TERRIBLE), but I've done my best. Europe still looks a bit misshapen, but its MUCH better than it did. Terran and such is pretty good now. Food and Lux resources have been placed. Just about to finish strategic and then I'll place the civs.

    When I finish I'll give a complete overview of the map and post it. I can customize it further with more balancing once I know who everyone wants to be. I think I'm going to just decide to be India.

    I put you down for Rome, and I'm keeping a tally above.
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    OzzyKP
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    Ok, I've customized the game for 7 players. I think if we have more or less players then that, it'll be fine.

    I played arond with the resources forever, so you all had better be damn appreciative. I've done my best to balance per region based on historical accuracy and playability. I've also tried to keep the number of resources down. I like the idea of scarce resources because that drives competition. Some I've made more common than others. So here is the full list of how many of each resource there are (assuming I can count properly and didn't forget to delete some from the earlier version, which is entirely posisble):

    FOOD:

    Wheat - 7
    Corn - 6
    Rice - 6

    The three staples are divided up by region. Rice is in the orient, corn is only in the Americas, and wheat is in Europe, Africa and Mid-east.

    Cow - 10
    Pig - 10
    Sheep - 10
    Deer - 10

    Livestock is also roughly regional, though not as strictly as the crops. The Americas don't have any livestock except for a few deer. Pig are more in the orient, cows are more in Europe and Africa, sheep are more in the Mid-East.

    Fish - 15
    Clam - 15
    Crab - 15

    Seafood is fairly well spread out and easy to come by.

    Fruit - 5

    South Asia, Oceana, and South America.

    LUXURIES:

    Dye - 12
    Fur - 12
    Whale - 12

    I made these the more common resources and are better spread out than the others.

    Silver - 8
    Gold - 7
    Incense - 7
    Sugar - 7

    Medium rarity, everyone (assuming 7 players) can get one, but you might have to hunt for them. They are generally spread out.

    Ivory - 4
    Silk - 4
    Spices - 4
    Wine - 4
    Gems - 4

    The ultra-rare luxuries. Not everyone can get one. Are concentrated in one or two areas.

    STRATEGIC:

    Stone - 7
    Marble - 7

    These are spread out, there is enough for everyone, but they might not always be next to you. Each player should have easy access to at least one. Some spots have easy access to both. Most spots have access to both with a little effort. I figure there should be one for everyone in theory, but since they aren't necessarily essential, I don't feel bad if not everyone can get them easily.

    Iron - 10
    Copper - 10
    Horses - 10

    I consider these staples for having a decent military. So I've concentrated them in the Old World (where players will start), and everyone should have access to horses and either copper or iron, sometimes both.

    Coal - 7
    Oil - 7

    Industrial age resources that everyone needs to be competitive, so there is one for everyone, but they aren't necessarily easy to get. There will be some imbalance here. So this could be a critical time for the game. Some regions may have more than their share in a certain one. Some players may have to hunt for harder to find ones, or make deals for them.

    Uranium - 7
    Aluminum - 7

    Modern age resources for the space race and nuclear weapons. Again, they are important, so there is one for everyone, but these are NOT going to be easy to get. I've thrown these in very out of the way, inaccessable places around the globe. Those with colonial empires will be rewarded at this stage.

    If/when I post the map, I'd prefer you guys didn't open it up and hunt out every resource I've placed so you can know ahead of time and plan for it. I think that'll be part of the fun of the game. I've given you some hints above, and you know how many of each so when you explore you can count them and know how many more you need to find. That should be enough, please don't peek.

    Does this give me an unfair advantage? Heh, with as poor as my memory is, I'm not going to remember where I put anything two weeks from now when we start the game. Crap, some of them I have trouble remembering now.
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    Frank Johnson
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    Sounds real interesting! It looks like you're doing you're best also to place the resources where they were historically while still keeping some kind of game balance too. I'd be a little disappointed if I got to the south of france and didn't find wine, or in the california valley etc. And so on, finding them in the far away lands is half the fun.

    The only other thing I can think of as far as the resources is that some of the technologies required to harvest some of the resources come much later than most. For example, wine requires monarchy, and anything that requires a plantation needs calander.

    Because of that those resources, spices, fruit, silk, dye, incense and sugar (plus wine, although I dont think monarchy is as far as calander) might be better suited to the "rare and far flung" catigory than the others that are near by and can be harvested early.

    Its probably not a big deal, but its possible to end up with what "looks" like a good starting location, but most of the resources can't be harvested for a few thousand years.

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    OzzyKP
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    The real question though.... are you in?
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    OzzyKP
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    I'm India, Capo is Rome, and no one else has picked yet. So you've got plenty of options. When setting up the map I kinda anticipated players in India, China/Japan, Russia, Western Europe, and then like the Mali.

    I dunno whether or not we'll be able to get to 7 players. But if so, then I figure we just squeeze. It may take us a bit to get the feel of this game. Ordinarily I wouldn't dream of having just one civ in Africa, but with ICS dead if they tried to build in the whole continent they'd really be hurting tech wise. So its a much different dynamic.

    Since the game is still very new, we don't have as many moding options yet as before with Civ2. So creating new civs might be off the table which could limit us. Unless we just want to do something like just drop the Arabs in Babylon/Baghdad, or Mali in South Africa. But (unless you want to learn) we probably couldn't do anything more intensive.
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    Frank Johnson
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    No need to mod yet. The game still has the new car smell. I don't see much point in rushing to pick a civ until we're sure how many we'll have in the game. Balancing the spots for 5 is alot different than 7.

    I'm sure I'll pick up the modding at some point though. If I can mode Warcraft 3 I can mod this. Hehe.

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    OzzyKP
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    Well the 5 I listed are the basic bunch for the minimum. India, China/Japan, West Europe, Russia/East Europe, and Africa I think are the basis for any game.

    If we get 6, then North Africa/Mideast vs. South Africa would be good.

    If we get 7... perhaps Mali, Zulu & Turkistan? Or like Egypt, Zulu & Tartars? Mongols? I dunno. Fitting in number 7 is always an artform.
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    Frank Johnson
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    If your map is anything like the large one in the default game I'd say Siberia is the new dominate position, quite worthy of being divided up by a siberian power and the Russians. In fact I'd put 2 in north asia (with an India and a China) before I'd put 2 in Africa, mainly due to the power of forests.

    Forests don't take away your food capacity anymore. A grassland forest beats a plan old grass land any day....and all those rivers. If you're gonna overload a spot, its Asia....

  21. #21
    deity
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    I'll grab China
    "Old age and skill will overcome youth and treachery. "
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    OzzyKP
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    Perhaps I could shift the Mongols west a bit and they could be the central/northern Asian civ. That would be interesting.

    I was really hoping for a good game with the Tartars (which one was that? HOTW4?) but the Tartar player really fell asleep on the job and never amounted to much.

    So yea, lets try for 7 players: Rome, Mali, Russia, Zulu, Mongol (in central Asia), China & India.

    Start recruiting more volunteers.

    Anyone have a good name for this game?
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    Frank Johnson
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    HOTW In 3D!

    Yeah I remember the tartars, but I think their placement was a strech from the begining, they were a group on the caspian sea I thnik. But Siberia is a great spot. You have a very strong homeland, but are disadvantaged when it comes to getting to new world resources.

    But hey I know I went to college for a reason. I've got this book with plenty of siberian tribe names Buryats, Evenks, Sakha,Tungus, it just goes on and on....

    I'll Guess I'll be the Mongol. You know we can't have any newbs bordering diety now can we? ^_^

  24. #24
    Capo di tutti Capi
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    Question If we have seven tribes...

    So we now have China, Rome, India and Mongolia. That means we need at least another African tribe involved. I would suggest Abyssinia/Ethiopia only because its a change from the Mali we had in HOTW2, and also its close to the Middle East but not too close so there will still be room for India to expand west and Rome to expand East with enough space so that its quality expansion balanced with competition.

    That makes five tribes. The next question is whether we want another African tribe. Or a more specific question would be whether the map you are making would be able to support another African tribe.

    Another thing; for the purposes of spreading the tribes out a little more I suggest putting the Mongol starting point where Samarkand (Tamerlane's capital rather than Temujin's) is, which would be near where Uzbekistan or Tajikistan is located. This would place Mongolia in a position more equally distanced between Rome, China and India, and give them a good spot to make a crack and settling in the Middle East rather than competing with China for Asia. With this in place you'd have Rome, India, Mongolia, and Abyssinia all equally far from the fertile crescent which could make for early competition.

    Mongolia would still be in a position to compete with China, but would also have an important settlement issue at hand; settling Eastwardly or Westwardly.

    With these tribes: Rome, India, Mongolia, China, and Abyssinia we have a good selection of tribes. The next question I'd like to ask is if we are keeping the Americas free of tribes at all?

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    Thumbs up Continued

    If we are trying to remit potential American tribes (as per HOTW2, although I think we may want to avoid replicating HOTW2) what tribes can we put it?

    As far as I understand we have a South/West European tribe, an East Asian tribe, a Central Asian tribe, a South Asian tribe and (I stick by my Abyssinian/Ethiopian suggestion) a North/East African tribe. If we are going for seven this leaves us with two more spots, if we are going for eight it leaves us with three more spots.

    Operating under our current roster I would have to say that Mongolia runs the risk of being landlocked, which isn't necessarily a bad thing its just something we should consider. The reason I say this is the fact that the Americas don't have tribes.

    This creates a disadvantage to Mongolia in the sense that it will be harder for them to gain access to the New World. Some may say that its part of the game, and that could be seen as true; as the other powers compete for Naval superiority to settle the new continent/s Mongolia's military prowess could become that much stronger.

    The other option is to use the two to three remaining spots and add tribes to the Americas. In the Ultimate diplogame we had three tribes there, I believe; Canada, Brazil and the United States. Granted this game went nowhere (mainly because the map was so gigantic it became ridiculous, contact didn't occur and the biggest problem was controlling disorder rather than what others were doing), but it isn't entirely unheared of for American tribes.

    I don't know, just a bunch of food for thought.

  26. #26
    Frank Johnson
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    I still think that 2 North Asian tribes is more do able than 2 African tribes. The trick is how to place the 2 north asian tribes is such a way they don't pinch any other particular player, Rome, India, or China.

    Now if you were playing the Holy Roman Empire, I wouldn't feel so bad because you'd be able to compete in Eastern Europe better if there was a Russian player.

    But Siberia on the default map is huge. Even if Ozzy's map is scaled down, its still more than a match for any of the other homelands because of CIV's game engine. Even if they are land locked they can still trade for resources, and as far as I can tell there's no strategic resources that exist solely in the new world.

    Seeing how I'm slated to be the Mongolian/Siberian/Central Asian I don't have any problem with moving my starting point around because there are numerous excellent starting points just refering to the large world map anyway.

    Edit: Something to consider when looking at the maps. I know you guys are probably playing SP too to get the mechanics down but I'll just share since I know I'm hopelessly addicted anyway.

    As far as terrain goes, compared to Civ2, CIV treats dry terrain with no sources of fresh water much more harshly. In fact desert is now a completely useless terrain and cannot be irrigated and does not yeild resources unless its a special resource or a flood plain, in which case its a nice square. Even plains that can't reach fresh water will have trouble for a real long time until you can get civil service or biology so it can be irrigated.

    On the other hand, forrested terrain is great in CIV. It does not take any food potental away from the square and adds production and health to the city. They can be chopped down for around 30 sheilds which is one of the favored starting strategies, and if you pick them wisely, they'll grow back evenually too.

    Jungle does not take nearly as long to clear as it used to, although you need iron working to even try and attempt it, but the process is signifigantly faster than in Civ2.

    Tundra is fairly useless unless it is directly next to fresh water, in which case it provides a good bit of food. Resources in the tundra areas usually prodive a nice boost to food and production as well.

    Not to mention mountains are completely useless now.

    So when you look at the Saraha, or a large bit of central asia, and the Himliyas....those areas will be pretty much uninhabitable. Deity won't be terraforming Australia into a pristine grassland either, because there's not terra forming terrain either.
    Last edited by Frank Johnson; November 9, 2005 at 14:33.

  27. #27
    deity
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    Thumbs up

    Originally posted by Frank Johnson
    HOTW In 3D!

    Yeah I remember the tartars, but I think their placement was a strech from the begining, they were a group on the caspian sea I thnik. But Siberia is a great spot. You have a very strong homeland, but are disadvantaged when it comes to getting to new world resources.

    But hey I know I went to college for a reason. I've got this book with plenty of siberian tribe names Buryats, Evenks, Sakha,Tungus, it just goes on and on....

    I'll Guess I'll be the Mongol. You know we can't have any newbs bordering diety now can we? ^_^
    Hi ya Frank.. good to see you back for C4

    This game is a great leveller for Civ2 players so I hope we can leave HOTW4 behind us!

    Looking forward to being your neighbour - actually my most favourite Civ2MP game was when you and I whipped Makeo, Hydey and Nappy on your small Earth map. That was so cool
    "Old age and skill will overcome youth and treachery. "
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  28. #28
    deity
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    That sig is a classic ozzy
    "Old age and skill will overcome youth and treachery. "
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  29. #29
    Ljube
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    Hello guys! I'm in!

    I'll grab what tribe is left.

  30. #30
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    Question

    Originally posted by Ljube
    Hello guys! I'm in!

    I'll grab what tribe is left.


    Even if we're not all here this weekend, those that can be should set up a test session to see how it all goes with connections etc.

    What time USA Sat night?
    "Old age and skill will overcome youth and treachery. "
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