Gathering Storm

[Enigma_Nova]

I guess I'd have to be there to understand it.
This gives me an opportunity to learn something about life!

[Solomwi]

I'd like to throw my hat in for membership consideration.

[notyoueither]

OK. You are on the list of prospective new members.

[DeepO]

Originally posted by Enigma_Nova
Well, I guess that if you want to get emotionally involved with not only your Civ but also your Teammates, that might make sense
But getting emotionally involved with your Civ is a rare obcession, and Teammates are one degree of separation further out.

Still, I'll take your word for it that it can happen. I just don't see how.

Emotional attachment? You bet. You even feel emotional attached to other teams sometimes. The first few weeks, you might think this is just a game, but after a few months this becomes part of your life. Especially for turnplayers...

There was a time when I could draw our complete map by hand, each tile improvement and bonus-perfect. Not because I've got a photographic memory or obsess over such things, but simply because you spend so much time tweaking that same game it becomes your own. Stormia was our land, not some island in some game we were randomly playing.

Such a vivid memory of your land can come quite handy at night, laying awake in your bed, half-dreaming on how to get that last shield squeezed out in time for the big plan

BTW, emotional attachment is also what makes the public forum such a dangerous place: one badly worded comment can quickly turn into personal vendetta. Try reading up on the first year of PTWDG I to see what I mean. Trolls are not appreciated, and the line between friendly jousting and trolling is very thin.

DeepO

[Beta]

Originally posted by DeepO

Emotional attachment? You bet. You even feel emotional attached to other teams sometimes. The first few weeks, you might think this is just a game, but after a few months this becomes part of your life. Especially for turnplayers...

There was a time when I could draw our complete map by hand, each tile improvement and bonus-perfect. Not because I've got a photographic memory or obsess over such things, but simply because you spend so much time tweaking that same game it becomes your own. Stormia was our land, not some island in some game we were randomly playing.

Such a vivid memory of your land can come quite handy at night, laying awake in your bed, half-dreaming on how to get that last shield squeezed out in time for the big plan

BTW, emotional attachment is also what makes the public forum such a dangerous place: one badly worded comment can quickly turn into personal vendetta. Try reading up on the first year of PTWDG I to see what I mean. Trolls are not appreciated, and the line between friendly jousting and trolling is very thin.

DeepO

Damn. A few well-placed sleeping pills and Vox may have won.

And I concur 110% with your post DeepO.

[Aro]

DeepO,

And, E_N... Be nice!

[Aro]

Originally posted by Beta


Damn. A few well-placed sleeping pills and Vox may have won.

And I concur 110% with your post DeepO.

Beta, you're looking like nye!

[Enigma_Nova]

Originally posted by Aro
And, E_N... Be nice!

I'm sorry, Dave, I'm afraid I can't do that.

[Aro]

It's up to you, dude.

[notyoueither]

E_N, I ask you to consider this well.

GS has had a very difficult time managing relations with other teams in a past game. Public forum behaviour and how it was perceived by others was a part of that. Simply who our members were was another part.

A more recent game (that GS was not a part of) has been halted after a problem with behaviour by a member of one team was resloved, but the spirit of the players for that game had been sapped by prior recriminations, again on the public forum.

With those things in mind, I have to wonder if GS would be the right place for you in this game. I feel safe in saying that not many members of GS would like any from our team to be a source of public discord in this game.

[Beta]

Originally posted by Aro


Beta, you're looking like nye!

Not any more.

New addition to the family. Border Collie mix.

[Enigma_Nova]

I'm a cuddly lovable plush spam teddie, not a sower of chaos, resentment and destruction, damn it.
Oh, and the Border-collie is cute. Desire to destroy Sarantium has decreased by up to 20%!

[NicodaMax]

These are certain "rules" I like to keep in mind while playing CIV....and generally in real life too.
Its from a post I made in the Civ4players site. Adapted from an Email I received, its suposed to be from His Holiness The Dalai Lama (the words, not the email)

1. Take into account that great games and great achievements involve great risk.
2. When you lose, don't lose the lesson.
3. Follow the three R's
Respect for self,
Respect for other's and
Responsability for all your actions.
4. Remember that not getting what you want is sometimes a wonderfull stroke of luck.
5. Learn the rules so you know how to break them properly.
6. Don't let a little dispute injure a great relationship.
7. When you realize you've made a mistake, take inmediate steps to correct it.
8. Spend some time playing CIV every day.
9. Open arms to change, but don't let go of your values.
10. Remember that silence is sometimes the best answer.
11. Play a good honorable game. When you look back on it you'll enjoy it a second time.
12. A loving atmosphere in the forum is the foundation for your CIV Demogame experience.
13. In disagreemente with fellow players, deal only with the current situation. Don't bring up the past.
14. Share your knowledge. It's a way to acheive immortality.
15. Be gentle with the earth.
16. Once a year, go someplace you've never been before.
17. Remember that the best relationship is one in which your love for each other exceeds your need for each other.
18. Judge your success by what you had to give up in order to get it.
19. Approach CIV playing with reckless abandon.

That summarizes my attitude I guess (and hope). "And that's all I have to say about that."

[Golden Bear]

Nicoda, you have touched me with your words. Point 3,
"respect for self,
respect for others (I fixed that), and,
Responsibility for all your own actions."
... is a great summary for Demo games and for all of life.

The "responsibility," part gets dropped from discussions almost always. I live by it, however. You can do whatever you like, but do not be angry if you pay the consequences for your actions.

We ought to carve these in stone for all games here on 'Poly!

You deserve the Gold Star of the Golden Bear for elucidating this so clearly!! As Babylonian team members can tell you, this is an important award (to us anyway ) And, .... you are the first non-Bab team member to earn it. bow and give homage.

[Enigma_Nova]

The Dalai Lama's beliefs, while highly valued as being ideal, don't strike me as being Evil, Macavellian, Practical or Insidious enough to have use in the modern world.
They also do not adress the purpose behind why a man would have the belief, or why he would have its opposite (though this is probably because The Dalai Lama knows that compared to him, his followers are idiots).

Originally posted by NicodaMax
1. Take into account that great games and great achievements involve great risk.

Or suitable amounts of asskissing, fortune or nepotism.

2. When you lose, don't lose the lesson.

Unless you would lose more by gaining the lesson - knowledge is power, power corrupts, and if ignorance is working then if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

3. Follow the three R's
Respect for self,
Respect for others and

Dead wrong. People have disrespect for the reason that removing the crappy parts of a system is how the system evolves. If you disrespect your greed, that lets you become more charitable (or vice-versa, if you disrespect your squandering, you become more financial).
Disrespecting people works on two levels. On the base, people respect themselves and disrespect those who disagree, so differing ideologies will clash and (in theory) the strongest wins.
On the upper level, the moral virtues we have allow us to identify inefficiency or evil, and allow us to shun or destroy it.

Disrespect is perfectly justified, IMO. Which is good, because I have a lot of it.

Responsability for all your actions.

I don't believe common folk are responsible for their actions, and even enlightened folk probably aren't either.
Your actions are based on decisions you make. These decisions are influenced by your emotions, beliefs, the people around you, and the situation.
The latter two are usually beyond control, and the first two, while in a person's control if they concentrate hard enough, usually aren't.
In addition, to change your emotions and beliefs, you need to make a decision. It's a circle, that starts with you sumping your emotions and beliefs from the environment when you were a child.
We -are- made up of substance that obeys the various laws of physics.
Self can exist without Freewill - point a camera at a TV screen that takes input from said camera and you have the basic mechanism of self-awareness.

While everyone exercises limited control to improve themselves, or the world around them, I do not consider people responsible for their actions, and I consider punishing people for the amorality of their beliefs and actions to be cruel and unjustified.
On the other hand, since you can't force people to believe or feel things that are beneficial to your empire, it's entirely moral to execute them en-masse so that the beliefs and feelings you want become dominant,
and since people are basically predictable machines with no soul (in my opinion) I have no qualms about publicly torturing one to affect the others.

Yes, I know my beliefs differ from those you find conventional,
but though evolution makes the masses feeling, it also makes people who are able to invent new ideas to lead.
Since the world has 6 billion people in it and no specific need for new leaders, I don't do much - but my beliefs are just as needed for society (in small quantities) as yours are (in large quantities).

This is why representative democracy doesn't work - people find their kin (followers) popular, so you get a charismatic but ineffectual follower as your leader. Leaders should be based on how well they lead and how much they desire to lead, IMO.

4. Remember that not getting what you want is sometimes a wonderfull stroke of luck.

True.

5. Learn the rules so you know how to break them properly.

Only applies to people who would have more to gain by breaking the rules than by using that mental energy to asskiss effectively.

6. Don't let a little dispute injure a great relationship.

But as soon as the little disputes pile up so that the relationship is no longer great, cancel it faster than Jerry Springer cancels happy couples.

7. When you realize you've made a mistake, take inmediate steps to correct it.

inmediate

8. Spend some time playing CIV every day.

9. Open arms to change, but don't let go of your values.

Only applies to people with some natural skill at assimilating new ideas, feelings or values. For those without such faculties, refer to 1. and 5.

10. Remember that silence is sometimes the best answer.

True.

11. Play a good honorable game. When you look back on it you'll enjoy it a second time.

An alternative is to be proud of the skill and evilness with which you executed your lies, manipulations and skullduggery. If you are content with being evil there's no need to be good. >=)

12. A loving atmosphere in the forum is the foundation for your CIV Demogame experience.

No it's not, you moron! You're a disgrace to this game, get the hell off the forums. :P (Just kidding)

13. In disagreemente with fellow players, deal only with the current situation. Don't bring up the past.

Unless 'the past' involves epileptic siezures, heart attacks, children, or other such problems that persist into the present and future.

14. Share your knowledge. It's a way to acheive immortality.

The forum will show the downside of this for me when they reply to my treatise on disrespect.

15. Be gentle with the earth.

Because hammers spent on an ICBM are more effectively spent on airplanes, tanks and subs.

16. Once a year, go someplace you've never been before.

Does going for a vacation to two nearby but different locales on new years' eve and day count?

17. Remember that the best relationship is one in which your love for each other exceeds your need for each other.

Such a relation is impermanent and unstable once your emotions change (and they do). The Dalai Lama made a mistake when he assumed his students to be as capable of love as he is - but then again, it's good to be critical and not regard even a famous philosopher's ideas as always right, especially when you're much more adept at understanding new ideas than you are at asskissing.

18. Judge your success by what you had to give up in order to get it.

But what of risks you took which yielded nothing? You'd need a multiplier for risky successes as opposed to safer successes.

19. Approach CIV playing with reckless abandon.

Recklessly abandon THIS!
Enemy troops have been spotted near your capital

[notyoueither]

I would say the vast majority of GS have a wish to be neither evil nor Machiavellian.

[Enigma_Nova]

Yes, you made this clear earlier.
But I'm allowed to be the devil's advocate, so that if you end up changing your minds halfway through the game (be it because you've changed over a year, or someone's axeman-rushed you) then you can still feel good about yourselves.
It's win-win!

[NicodaMax]

to Golden Bear...
The fact that at least one is touched by those words, which are not mine though they represent well how I feel, is reward enough. Thank you very much.

to Enigma_Nova...
I appreciate the feedback, though to go into a political / philosophical discussion is neither my purpose nor the subject of discussion here I just want to point out that:

Though I do not share many of their beliefs, I don't think the Dalai Lama's followers are idiots compared to him, given that many who follow him aren't necessarily less enlightened than him. Ironically, their views not being of much use in this world is perhaps proof of the world's ill state.
To me, there are no wrong or right beliefs. There are just different approaches or methodologies to how we face the moment. While in the long run, circumstances and evolution may favor one system or another, in the immediate* presents different belief systems coexist and clash, which is how it works and its what gives it its dynamism. To have respect is to accept this, as it is, without judging.
* Funny how misspellings can inadvertently add meaning to a phrase.

I don't think we're using the word disrespect in the same way. When I want to change something or when I disagree with someone I don't see it as disrespecting it or them.
In most cases I also don't consider people responsible for their actions, just as I don't consider a lion responsible for eating somebody, or a virus for infecting and killing people. That's just their nature. Some individuals can go beyond their nature in some aspects of their lives and that's when we also gain responsibility.
I agree 100% that "representative" democracies don't work. Funny how popular it is nowadays as a form of government in the world. Basically, just another symptom to me.
I must say, you do honor to your name, for you are very enigmatic to me

[Cort Haus]

E_N, it has to be said that your posting style is more, shall we say, Genghis Farb than Gathering Storm. You may or may not remember him, but others will.

Whilst your philosophy is distinct and colourful, it is, in all honesty, somewhat at odds with the usual Stormian way of going about things. We are not 'Machievellian' or 'Evil' types in GS, and nor are we hot on trolling and flaming people, as you apparantly enjoy in accordance with your worldview.

For public posting, we held a rigid team discipline for much of the game, where basically no-one said anything outside the agreed party line - which would be discussed internally - and usually only the turnplayer would make the public postings.

In this light, your desire for self-expression may not have the room it seeks within GS, nor like-minded people with whom to share an approach to strategy gaming.

In the past, other teams have made public posture and propaganda very much part of their team profile, and it may be that such a team would be better suited for your gaming and posting style.

As nye said, please think about it carefully. Thanks.

[DeepO]

Originally posted by Cort Haus
For public posting, we held a rigid team discipline for much of the game, where basically no-one said anything outside the agreed party line - which would be discussed internally - and usually only the turnplayer would make the public postings.

Yes, and I think many of us vets are going to want to enforce that rule, at least at the start of the new game.

Ideally the public forum is Utopia, the place where everybody gets along and cares (or pretends to care) for all others. I certainly would like to see GS adding to that positive vibe, or at least not disturb it... All diplomacy in game is largely determined by how you are perceived as a team, and human nature is such that one negative comment can have more impact than years of friendliness.

In this light, your desire for self-expression may not have the room it seeks within GS, nor like-minded people with whom to share an approach to strategy gaming.

As nye said, please think about it carefully. Thanks.

I agree, please consider this thoroughly. I read in your posts the enthousiasm and game insight I would love to add to our team. It would be a pity to lose that because your style might clash with the rest of the team's.

In our private forum, there is all the room you need for debate, opposing views, and while we never experienced it before also for reasonable conflicts as long as they don't get personal. Our public image, though, has to be one of a united front.

In the past, more then a few members have voluntarily stopped posting in public for several months as they noticed some of the posts they made added to flame wars or similar nasty things, ruining the fun in the game for them and others. They took actions in their own hands, and simply shut up. While this might be a bit extreme, do you see yourself taking the same responsibility if you would somehow have reason to believe your personal postings could be harming the team?

DeepO

[Golden Bear]

Just to reemphasize something... E_N, I enjoy your patter which is pretty much sound and fury without thought or substance.

However, you cannot dodge responsibility for your actions. There are consequences for every action. You may not like them, but it is a fact that they are there.

[snoopy369]

More specifically, you and your team are held responsible for your actions. C3CDG proved that, if nothing else. Teams *will* be held responsible for their members - and that means you, as a member, are responsible to your team for acting within the bounds of reasonability.

[binTravkin]

I will not comment on the long writeup about how E_N's beliefs contradict Dalai Lama's statements, apart from this hilarious quote:

since people are basically predictable machines with no soul (in my opinion) I have no qualms about publicly torturing one to affect the others

It sounds like you're feeling unpredictable E_N.
It is not so, this answer of yours was fully predictable by people who know you

Also, you might one day find out that to perceive a person in forum like a collection of username, avatar, signature and some other minor properties, who (or rather which) is able to spit some semi-logical ('predictable') string, is plain wrong.

[Enigma_Nova]

Originally posted by binTravkin
It sounds like you're feeling unpredictable E_N.

Nah. But I guess you predicted me feeling predictable, right?

Also, you might one day find out that to perceive a person in forum like a collection of username, avatar, signature and some other minor properties, who (or rather which) is able to spit some semi-logical ('predictable') string, is plain wrong.

Or, I could disagree with you, and ask you what the alternative would be (bearing in mind that I am not telepathic) and why this alternative is better than considering a person to be a collection of Username, Avatar, Signature and Funny and/or Confusing banter.

Originally posted by snoopy369
More specifically, you and your team are held responsible for your actions. C3CDG proved that, if nothing else. Teams *will* be held responsible for their members - and that means you, as a member, are responsible to your team for acting within the bounds of reasonability.

That's a nice collection of buzz words. So, in layman's terms, you've got your underwear in a knot because someone doesn't give a damn about your ideal notion of a responsible player, and you're giving me an e-mean stare in the hopes that I'll revert to a good happy little forum-goer.
...
Doesn't work on me, nor do adminslaps.
But if you had instead said this:

More specifically, The Forumgoers are afraid of people who act so bravely and uniquely (and trollishly ). They will hold suspicion against both you and your team. C3CDG proved that, if nothing else. I assume you're not wanting to cause your team trouble, so ask yourself this:
"When I post this, is the frustration caused for my teammates and thus later frustration for myself balanced by whatever glee being a troll gives me?"
How much do you value trolling over the success of your team?"

Then I would have said:
I respect my feelings moreso than those of anyone else. That said, I'm not going to post things I don't believe for the point of trolling if they will give my team a bad rep.
If what I genuinely believe puts stress on my team, or the demo game, then you can handle the situation as it arises.
But assuming I will cause trouble now is ... presumptuous.

I know, you've probably just had a bad day and didn't have time to think about your post and how it would affect people.
It's no big deal, I know how it feels and I forgive you.
There's no need to be responsible when you're upholding the rules of the game and just adressing some troll - but if you set a good example, maybe the troll will follow you?

Originally posted by Golden Bear
Just to reemphasize something... E_N, I enjoy your patter which is pretty much sound and fury without thought or substance.
However, you cannot dodge responsibility for your actions. There are consequences for every action. You may not like them, but it is a fact that they are there.

Oh, I don't ignore the consequences. I know that the uneasiness of my peers and perhaps the Divine Wrath of Mods will follow, but I accept it, laugh it off and move on.
... after being annoyed at being unable to win anything requiring diplomacy, but that's how I am. Gotta accept it.

[NicodaMax]

"Reader, suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." [Mark Twain, c.1882]

Actually, idiot comes from the Greek idiotes (layman, person lacking professional skill), and I believe it was used in ancient Greece to denote a person who did not participate in the democratic process (i.e. that could vote but wouldn't); from idios (one's own).

sorry, just thought it was funny

[NicodaMax]

Originally posted by Enigma_Nova

...I know that the uneasiness of my peers and perhaps the Divine Wrath of Mods will follow, but I accept it, laugh it off and move on....

Not that you need any encouragement...

[Enigma_Nova]

Originally posted by Cort Haus
Whilst your philosophy is distinct and colourful, it is, in all honesty, somewhat at odds with the usual Stormian way of going about things. We are not 'Machievellian' or 'Evil' types in GS, and nor are we hot on trolling and flaming people, as you apparantly enjoy in accordance with your worldview.

... Yes, but you're also heavily strategic. I don't think there's any team looking for members that is Evil/Strategic or Trolly/Strategic.
At least other people being Good or Calm doesn't annoy me as much as other people being idiots.

For public posting, we held a rigid team discipline for much of the game, where basically no-one said anything outside the agreed party line - which would be discussed internally - and usually only the turnplayer would make the public postings.

I see. Will there be sufficient spam threads in the GS forum to make up for what would be lost from public posting?

In this light, your desire for self-expression may not have the room it seeks within GS, nor like-minded people with whom to share an approach to strategy gaming.

My self-expression will make enough room, and searching for like-minded people would be easier done by going to www.techcomedy.com

In the past, other teams have made public posture and propaganda very much part of their team profile, and it may be that such a team would be better suited for your gaming and posting style.

And they get even more agitated when I bother to post my own propaganda which isn't in line with their own happy tea-party ideas.
No thank you. Silence on everyone's part is a better plan to me than Expression on everyone's part but my own.

Besides, Don't ignore that I'm obcessive about knowing how to play the game. Expressive teams are always Friendly teams, and for some strange reason Friendly teams insist that even the n00bier, more stupid or more casual players get equal say -
probably because friendly people don't have the heart to say 'no'.

The only way you'd find a team that matches my ideals would be if a team was made to match my ideals - and I would do so if the game hadn't already started.

As nye said, please think about it carefully.

Lack of idiots is the main selling point, and GS has the least idiots.
I have thought about this - and my expression isn't important if I don't have anything to complain about (and won't, if my team aren't morons).

Originally posted by DeepO
Yes, and I think many of us vets are going to want to enforce that rule, at least at the start of the new game.

Meh, seems a sensible rule by me and I'm fine with it-
up until the point when we don't have a solid party line.
Just know that there will be much internal complaining on my part if you do something I strongly disagree with.

Ideally the public forum is Utopia, the place where everybody gets along and cares (or pretends to care) for all others. I certainly would like to see GS adding to that positive vibe, or at least not disturb it...

Oh, I add to it. It's just not obvious that openness, honesty and humor balance out the shock value.

All diplomacy in game is largely determined by how you are perceived as a team, and human nature is such that one negative comment can have more impact than years of friendliness.

Human nature also dictates that having your team percieved as Strong, Weak, Spammy, Serious, Active, Passive, Aggressive and Kind all have their places. It would be best to act how you are and work with what you have than expend large amounts of effort so you can base success on a lie.
As for the negative comment ... True, but doesn't consider the whole picture. Common dislike of an enemy strengthens bonds, and while comments can draw many passing enemies they can also bring strong allies.
Also, if one person starts flaming, the others tend to join in.
While you probably won't give me orders to do such, I have faith in my ability to turn people against each-other rather than just against us.

]In this light, your desire for self-expression may not have the room it seeks within GS, nor like-minded people with whom to share an approach to strategy gaming.

Nor would I find like-minded people and the potention for expression anywhere else. At least in GS I'm shutting up about my disagreement with a bunch of people who aren't total idiots.
The problem with diplomatic relations (that I don't instigate)
are that they expect you to be tactful and to hold common views.
'course, given half the chance I'll tell it like it is - and I think I've succeeded in doing that, thus getting problem A out of the way.

I agree, please consider this thoroughly. I read in your posts the enthousiasm and game insight I would love to add to our team. It would be a pity to lose that because your style might clash with the rest of the team's.

- I can be shrewd diplomatically if you provide ample troll food and spam in your forum, so that I need not feast here.

But the problem, and for once this not my problem, is that if you delude yourselves into thinking you will avoid being hurt when my opinions start filling your boards, then you'll get even more hurt and blame me instead of yourselves.
If you attach yourselves to your team and wand more than just postcount from this game, then
You will be hurt, it's part of the learning experience. If you're not prepared to have theories smashed, feelings hurt, expectations unmet, efforts wasted and personality changed, then you're not ready to grow.
I'm sure as hell ready. I expect to have personal challenges as part of this game - and I would demand it. If I can't leave this game knowing that I have improved or changed, then this game was nothing more than a passing diversion.

Casual gamers may not want to get this deep. I respect their opinions. But for those of us who actually want this game to connect our minds and influence our hearts, don't push that bullshit about "it just being a game". It's part of life, and if someone wants to make this human interaction an important part, then they have just as much right to be serious as you do to be casual.
If you approach this game thinking it will be a happy diversion for 6 months, then indeed we're not compatible,

Emotional attachment? You bet. You even feel emotional attached to other teams sometimes. The first few weeks, you might think this is just a game, but after a few months this becomes part of your life. Especially for turnplayers...

There was a time when I could draw our complete map by hand, each tile improvement and bonus-perfect. Not because I've got a photographic memory or obsess over such things, but simply because you spend so much time tweaking that same game it becomes your own. Stormia was our land, not some island in some game we were randomly playing.

but it seems ... we understand.

In our private forum, there is all the room you need for debate, opposing views, and while we never experienced it before also for reasonable conflicts as long as they don't get personal.

Oh, they will. If feeling strong emotions about the game will make us work harder, then I'll try to inspire such emotions - even if you consider it trolling.

Our public image, though, has to be one of a united front.

Got it. When one of us talks, that's not us talking, that's a part of GS talking. And if you impersonate someone and make **** on their behalf, then they've got the right to smash your face for it.

They took actions in their own hands, and simply shut up.

Give you 50:1 odds that I'll take matters into my own hands and say something before I take matters into my own hands and shut up.
... Because Silence isn't always the best answer.

do you see yourself taking the same responsibility if you would somehow have reason to believe your personal postings could be harming the team?

I am the Team. If I hurt the team, then I hurt me. There is no separation of self from team, for as long as we have a reason to form a team in the first place.
... At least, that's how we make it seem to others while we tear each-other up like the rabid dogs we are.

[Enigma_Nova]

Originally posted by NicodaMax

Not that you need any encouragement...

Well maybe not now, but I'm sure going to need it when my team starts bickering about which team we declare war on.

[Arrian]

Oy.

-Arrian

[NicodaMax]

After that I need some time to recuperate...and think.
btw, private forums anytime soon? anyone?