Israel

[Braindead]

Originally posted by notyoueither
Biggest argument against Israel as a civ in the basic game is that they were not the first in the immediate area.

Would you replace Egypt?

No.

QUESTION
Throw out Egypt (or Babylon) to make a place for Israel?

ANSWER

[Sharule]

As much as I would like to see Israel in the game, the selection of other civs are good, and I wouldnt trade them(with the excepion of the Aztecs and Mali, but theyre 'token' civs for Africa and Early america). I certainly believe that Egypt and China deserve to be in the game more than Israel. Especially China, which has a significant religious, cultural, explorative and military history. Chine fits all the reqiurements to be in this game perfectly.

I think its more culture myth that modern Israel is somehow a legitamate successor to the ancient state.

And Egypt is the legitimate succesor to the ancient egypt?
Although, just something to note, Egypt is predomionantly Muslim. An Abrahmic religion, which Muhammad took inspiration from the Jews(or devinely recieved it from the God of Abraham).
While I would be hesitant to replace any current civs, I do think Israel should have been added. Mostly as a cultural and religious civilization.

[Alexander I]

Well, Israel isn't going to be in Civ4. It may be in an expansion. CtP had them, though it wasn't a Sid Meier game.

I personally wouldn't mind seeing them in a game.

I find it impressive that the Jews are still a people after the number of times they've been conquered and persecuted. They're persistent, and they're survivors.

And I think their culture has had more influence on western civilization than they've been given credit for in this thread.

Granted, I don't think the Jews ought to be a Civ4 civ on their own, rather the Israelites or Hebrews because it's more inclusive.

[Volstag]

You're basically asking us to tell you why Firaxis made the choices they did. Call me crazy, but I doubt any of us have the ability to divine their collective thought process.

When you're only allowed 18 candidates from a pool of several hundred, most are going to be left out, no? It's their game, and they can include/exclude whomever they want for any reason they want. Firaxis can't, and won't, add every country/ethnic-group that someone, somewhere, wants in the game.

And finally, I just don't understand why some people are so obsessed with inclusion/exclusion of certain countries. I feel that some people base the relative worth of their country on whether it appears in a silly game, or not -- which is weird. Or that, somehow, playing Germany (for example) is going to offer some deep historical insight on what it means to be German. In other words, other than a few cosmetic differences, and a handful of arbitrary traits, there's no fundamental difference between playing Germany, or Rome, or Isreal.

[Senethro]

Originally posted by Sharule
And Egypt is the legitimate succesor to the ancient egypt?
Although, just something to note, Egypt is predomionantly Muslim. An Abrahmic religion, which Muhammad took inspiration from the Jews(or devinely recieved it from the God of Abraham).
While I would be hesitant to replace any current civs, I do think Israel should have been added. Mostly as a cultural and religious civilization.

Of course not! Modern Egypt is not been a continual state since the last dynasty. However, the difference between Israel and Egypt is that Egypt had an empire/culture lasting thousands of years even before the birth of Christ. Note that the leaders of Civ4 Egypt are from its "golden age" relative to the rest of the world, not General Nasser

Jews have most certainly had an effect on western culture much greater than their numbers would suggest, but Jews are not Israel. Israel has no place on the civ roster.

[LordShiva]

Originally posted by Volstag
You're basically asking us to tell you why Firaxis made the choices they did. Call me crazy, but I doubt any of us have the ability to divine their collective thought process.

When you're only allowed 18 candidates from a pool of several hundred, most are going to be left out, no? It's their game, and they can include/exclude whomever they want for any reason they want. Firaxis can't, and won't, add every country/ethnic-group that someone, somewhere, wants in the game.

And finally, I just don't understand why some people are so obsessed with inclusion/exclusion of certain countries. I feel that some people base the relative worth of their country on whether it appears in a silly game, or not -- which is weird. Or that, somehow, playing Germany (for example) is going to offer some deep historical insight on what it means to be German. In other words, other than a few cosmetic differences, and a handful of arbitrary traits, there's no fundamental difference between playing Germany, or Rome, or Isreal.

[SirSebastian]

snoopy369,

... even the Catholic mass is primarily pagan (although the format is half based on jewish services, nearly all of the symbolism and symbols, plus the more-important second half of the mass, are based on pagan artifacts - particularly the eating of the body and blood of christ).

Is it really necessary in a thread about whether or not a Jewish-based civilization should be in the game to find a way to take such a ridiculously feeble shot at Catholicism of all things? Not only did your post display a clear lack of knowledge about the connections between Christianity and Judaism, but the end of your post is off topic and uncalled for. Since you gave a fiction book (The Davinci Code) as suggested reading, I can easily counter with any recommendation, but I'll throw out: Many Religions, One Covenant: Israel, the Church, and the World by Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger.

[Joseph]

Originally posted by SirSebastian
snoopy369,


Is it really necessary in a thread about whether or not a Jewish-based civilization should be in the game to find a way to take such a ridiculously feeble shot at Catholicism of all things? Not only did your post display a clear lack of knowledge about the connections between Christianity and Judaism, but the end of your post is off topic and uncalled for. Since you gave a fiction book (The Davinci Code) as suggested reading, I can easily counter with any recommendation, but I'll throw out: Many Religions, One Covenant: Israel, the Church, and the World by Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger.

I felt his post was unworthy of a reply. I have not read any book from our new Pope when he was a Cardinal. Should I buy this one?

[Sharule]

Jews have most certainly had an effect on western culture much greater than their numbers would suggest, but Jews are not Israel. Israel has no place on the civ roster.

If there was no Israel, there would be no Jews. Therefor no Tanakh(old testament) the best selling and most influential piece of literature in the western world, if not the entire world. The western religions would have never developed, and the world would be a lot different. Trying to seperate the people from their nation is rediculous. The Arabs did not flourish without Arabia.

This topic is getting rather hot. People are talking about religions in an impersonal manner. Im trying to state my point, yes I am Jewish, yes, I might be biased. But I am trying not to be. It is impossible to study christianity without studying the Jews. The New Testament was written by a Jew(Saul/Paul of Tsauris) and was about a Jew. 33% of the world claims to be christian(I wont argue that some of these people do not have strong convictions, but the fact that they claim to be religious is enough for me.) I do not see how you can say that Israel had no effect on the world when 33% of the world worships an Israelite(Isea, Jesus) another 16 million follow Judaism and another 21% follow Muhammads teachings, which worships and glorifies the Israeli God(Abliet in a different form).

[Dinner]

Firaxis should give the Jews their civ.

[smellymummy]

recent archeological digs might just prove that china invented the noodle. and they are also the third nation to go to space. if thats not reason enough for china, i don't know what is

now for israel, the fact that their culture has survived all this time is good enough for me to say they should be in. and so what if they got conquered, in civ, it's not about what happened, its what can happen at the hands of a player

anyway, someone will make a mod with israel

[Senethro]

Originally posted by Sharule


If there was no Israel --snip

Note that everything in your post happened after Israel and did not require it.

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by Sharule


If there was no Israel, there would be no Jews.

Do you mean ancient kingdom of Israel or modern state of Israel ?


Because Judaism survived the Babylonian captivity and Jewish settlements persisted in Mesopotamia and the Achaemenid, Parthian and Sassanid empires, even when there were no independent Jewish states in Palestine.

This is without even mentioning the Jewish Berber tribes, the Jewish Khazar khanate, the Jewish colonies in Egypt, India, China, Afghanistan, Africa- none of which were dependent upon an independent state of Israel or Judaean kingdom.

The New Testament was written by a Jew(Saul/Paul of Tsauris) and was about a Jew.

Actually, it was written by more than one person, at more than one time, and it isn't all about Jesus.

[Fried-Psitalon]

Die! Die bad thread die!

:: hits it with a stick::

Die! Go away! Shoo!

This has been a public service announcement for "Let's talk about CIV in the Civ4-General forum." Thank you.

[curtsibling]

Originally posted by Nikolai
I'd be all for a Jewish civ. No country/people has survived so much so long in the history of mankind, so I'd say they deserve a place in Civ.

Balderdash.

Other cultures (Indus/Chinese/African) far predate the Judaic peoples.

And on the subject, anything is in CIV4 is moddable,
So, we could have the 'banana' civ included by the public.

PS
This thread just screams 'political rant' at me.

[Sharule]

I was refering the the ancient state. Before the destruction of the first temple. Until the time of Ezra, the Jews didnt not have a Tanakh, and were a largely unorginized people.

Actually, it was written by more than one person, at more than one time, and it isn't all about Jesus.

It wasnt all, but a large ammount of it was at the very least edited by him. Its not all about jesus's life, but its about his faith, and the house he built so to speak.

[Nikolai]

Originally posted by curtsibling


Balderdash.

Other cultures (Indus/Chinese/African) far predate the Judaic peoples.

And on the subject, anything is in CIV4 is moddable,
So, we could have the 'banana' civ included by the public.

PS
This thread just screams 'political rant' at me.

Could you please reread my post and my reply to the other post saying the same as you? Thanks!

[Alexander I]

You know, this seems to be the exact opposite of my old Mali thread. That one was about why a Civ shouldn't be in, and everyone got furious, saying that it should be. This one is about why a civ should be in, and now everyone's jumping all over, shouting that it shouldn't be...

Perhaps some people just like to be antagonistic...

[Cort Haus]

Originally posted by Alexander01
And I think their culture has had more influence on western civilization than they've been given credit for in this thread.

I agree with this, though I also accept that with only about 16-or-so slots in the game, some 'deserving' civs will lose out, and some tough decisions will have to be made.

Are the Civs present which invented/discovered the other religions used in the game?

It seems to me (as a non-Jewish atheist) that apart from the three Abrahimic religions, modern western progressive traditions of democracy, secularism, liberalism and socialism also owe much to the Jewish Civ.

[Alexander I]

Originally posted by Cort Haus

I agree with this, though I also accept that with only about 16-or-so slots in the game, some 'deserving' civs will lose out, and some tough decisions will have to be made.

Are the Civs present which invented/discovered the other religions used in the game?

It seems to me (as a non-Jewish atheist) that apart from the three Abrahimic religions, modern western progressive traditions of democracy, secularism, liberalism and socialism also owe much to the Jewish Civ.

I agree wholeheartedly. No, the Hebrews/Israelites/Jews (gradually getting more specific) did not have a huge long-lived conquering empire. But their culture has had such influence on the world as we know it that I think they merit a place in a Civ Expansion. After all, they've never been in a Civ game before.

[lord of the mark]

judaism is clearly a civilization, a distinctive and creative one, which has had many influences.

However a civilization, the game Civilization (at least all previous incarnations) is really a State. A state that goes throught processes of the advancement of civilization. I havent heard that Civ 4 will be any different in this respect.

Judaism is an example of a civilization that achieved many of its great advances precisely when it was NOT embodied in a state. It therefore doesnt fit the Civ paradigm.


It would still be helpful to have for specific scenarios.

[Kinjiru]

Originally posted by tuckson
Whatever u say on Israël, the fact that nearly 2000 years after their destruction the nation is re-established and is florishing (in spite of the continuous war-like situation) is quite an achievement imho.

That ('Israel is now flourishing') is a concept that I wonder about sometimes. The israeli intelligence service is certainly top notch, no question, but if the nation were not heavily supported militarily by the US, would Israel still exist? I suspect not.

The reason I say that Israel is supported militarily by the US is that, AFAIK, pretty much all of the military hardware possessed by the Israeli's is American made and given and/or sold to them at a heavy discount. (Possible exception: I seem to recall that they bought some French Mirage jets a while back). Not to mention the fact that Israel is generally considered to be under the protection of the US nuclear umbrella.

Anyway, I will leave the discussion to those with more concrete knowledge of the region...

[MarkG]

threads with ideas that are obviously too late to have anything to with civ4 belong here now....

[DarkCloud]

Originally posted by Joseph
We had a big discussion over at the FFZ about who invented what. Chris 62 remember him, look it up.

Sorry, ever since I was permabanned from that forum, I refuse to visit it.

But thank you for telling me your source.

And Boris- thank you for backing me up with hard facts.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Kinjiru


That ('Israel is now flourishing') is a concept that I wonder about sometimes. The israeli intelligence service is certainly top notch, no question, but if the nation were not heavily supported militarily by the US, would Israel still exist? I suspect not.

The reason I say that Israel is supported militarily by the US is that, AFAIK, pretty much all of the military hardware possessed by the Israeli's is American made and given and/or sold to them at a heavy discount. (Possible exception: I seem to recall that they bought some French Mirage jets a while back). Not to mention the fact that Israel is generally considered to be under the protection of the US nuclear umbrella.

Anyway, I will leave the discussion to those with more concrete knowledge of the region...

From its independence to 1967 israel principally purchased weapons from Britain and France. The aircraft were usually French, as you mention, and the armor was largely british. Israel only began to "buy american" after 1967.

Israel has long had an extensive defense industry of its own as well.

Israel receives about 3 billion a year in aid, which helps it to buy US weapons. They could probably do without this aid, but the need to cut back on subsidies to specific religious and economic groups would lessen the Govts ability to form coalitions - the US govt prefers paying the aid, and getting coalitions that are generally more favorable to concessions than it would otherwise get.

Israel is widely beleived to have its own nuclear force.

[lord of the mark]

way back when we were debating Civ3, i did a profile of the "unique units" a jewish/israeli civ would have. It was rather amusing, but i cant find the post. Anyone here better at websearching can find it maybe?

[Colon™]

About this printing press thingy again. I'll try not to pretend I know a lot about this, I had to read some re-read texts about it several times for one, but there seems to be some fuzziness going on (and Wikipedia isn't a particularly good source).
Yes, the Chinese invented woodblock printing and the use of movable types, and perhaps the Koreans metal movable types, but those elements do not constitute a printing "press".
Gutenberg invented a punch and mold system to quickly create movable metal types. And then he combined such types, put together in a tray, with the use of a screw press. Screw-drive presses is something the Chinese simply did not have.
And the significance is so not much that it printed, but that allowed printing in large quantities.

Put simply, the Chinese did not have a device like this:

[DarkCloud]

Admittedly, the way that I understand it, they did not have a mechanized way to do it, but they did have woodblock printing and produced thousands of copies of books through moving the blocks by hand and then pressing them down.

Allegedly, they could print 50-60,000 copies of some literature. Now, admittedly, I only have two book sources which corroborate this- but both books are scholarly considerations of the subject- I believe the title is "The Genius of China: 3,000 Years of Science, Discovery and Invention
by Joseph Needham, Robert K. G. Temple" The book was recommended to me by Urban Ranger- he could probably tell you more (though admittedly, he's not the most unbiased source in the world.

PS: apologies for the overuse of "admittedly" and "allegedly"

[Colon™]

Yeah, UR already told me the Chinese made a lot of books, which is a bit beside the point and which I certainly wasn't trying to refute in any case. The point is that Gutenberg didn't just re-invent the wheel by using movable types: by using a press it was possible to print sharper images and both side of a sheet and, more significantly, it allowed for further enhancements. Dismissing the press would be like dismissing a wind mill, because manpower could drive a mill just as well.

Besides, I don't know how the Koreans did it, but Gutenberg also invented a punch and mold system to create new characters quickly, which also was far more productive than cutting characters out of wood.

Some sources:
http://communication.ucsd.edu/bjones.../printech.html
http://www.gutenberg.de/english/erfindun.htm

[DarkCloud]

Okay, I'm not arguing that the Chinese system was better than Gutenberg's system. The only points that I made was that the Chinese invented the basic idea and that there is some claim that the Koreans and the Germans only arrived at the same conclusion after seeing demonstrations/and/or hearing about it.

Thanks for futher educating me on the fact of exactly how Gutenberg's sytem differed from the Chinese, though- I never quite understood their precise differences.

That still doesn't change the fact though that thousands of copies WERE produced by Chinese presses. But- once again, as you mention- Gutenberg's process was far superior, so I can see how some people would praise him for the invention of the 'press'... but regardless of whether he's more efficient or not isn't the issue- the Chinese invented the first one- much as Marconi invented the radio (actually someone else did-Marconi just took the credit- but I can't remember the other guy's name) and others built on his invention or came to it through similar lines of reasoning.

Indeed, wood block movable type was an amazing invention in its own right- and I think that the Chinese deserve a lot more credit than they're given for its invention.