Thomas L. Friedman: "The World is Flat"

[Dinner]

Originally posted by Provost Harrison
Many would consider your economic model to be lagging behind a large proportion of the western world actually...

Not economic growth wise but in terms of social responsibility it is.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Drake Tungsten

Really? Scandinavia is already spanking you in terms of living standards, and hotness of women.

Who's talking about standards of living? I'm talking about economic strength.

What's the point of economic strength if it doesn't translate into SoL?

[Agathon]

What's the point of economic strength if it doesn't translate into SoL?

I already asked that question. Apparently the answer is that it allows you to Lord it over the rest of the world, whether they know it or not. You also get lots of guns.

[Spiffor]

Guns

[Japher]

I'm with Che... though it's not only SoL but Quality of Life, something the US is definitly lagging on.

We need to be more productive, do less, and kill more people and then we would rok

[DanS]

Despite it all, the vast majority of people in the US have an extremely high standard of living.

[Lawrence of Arabia]

12% live in poverty, more then any other western european nation.

[Lawrence of Arabia]

12% live in poverty, more then any other western european nation.

[KrazyHorse]

12 or 24%?

[Lawrence of Arabia]

12.

[GePap]

Originally posted by DanS


I don't know that to be true. US companies sell about 1/2 of the world's semiconductors by value, which is about as well as they have ever done. It is true that some of those semiconductors are manufactured by our companies overseas, of course.

Friedman's main point is the difference in trained engineers and scientists. The US has not been producing many engineers and scientists for a while now- this shortage was being met by trained engineers from around the world before, one because they could not find work elsewhere, 2. because immigration to the US was relatively easy.

Thanks to new immigration regulations, its much harder to get into the US, and thanks to the internet there is less need for engineers to actually move to the US to work. This is Friedman's main concern.

Plus the fact the US is not gaining as fast with a variety of new information technologies- the US used to be number 1 in terms of houses with access to broadband internet. The Japanese are now ahead not only in the % of homes with broadband, but in ther quality of the service as well. This is because the Japanese government, and other governments, are subsidizing the growth of broadband and G3 cell phones and so forth, while the US has sat back and is trusting the market to do it. It seems the market is not keeping up.

[Jon Miller]

I would like to say here and now that comcast sucks

but there is no other boadband service provider arround here... (that I know of)

Jon Miller

[Imran Siddiqui]

Originally posted by Drake Tungsten
I wouldn't be too worried about Japan; their economy has too many of the same problems that are plaguing Europe. Of course, the rise of China may be enough to get them off their asses to make some serious reforms, so who knows?

Japan will get out of it eventually. Maybe China's rise is just what they'll need, but Japan will continue to be a player. Of course, China is the one to watch out for and India is growing very well.

And from some of the comments here, you'd think the US was 100+ in the HDI. They are actually 8th and it isn't a great leap to #1. And of the countries above the US, only Australia has areas with as nice weather as some areas in the US .

[DanS]

12% live in poverty, more then any other western european nation.

As far as I know, a 12% poverty level is not out of line with those in Western Europe. The UK has a ~ 17% level, f.e.

On the other hand, the US has areas of acute poverty, unlike many European countries.

[Ted Striker]

I'm with the quality of life and social responsibility crowd.

Who cares if we are kicking everyone's azz when it only benefits a few.

Like the recent moron CEO that gave his wife 2 billion in stock a couple of days before he was fired.

Inequity of wealth.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Originally posted by Ted Striker
I'm with the quality of life and social responsibility crowd.

Who cares if we are kicking everyone's azz when it only benefits a few.

/me points to his last post, re: HDI

[Drake Tungsten]

The Japanese are now ahead not only in the % of homes with broadband, but in ther quality of the service as well. This is because the Japanese government, and other governments, are subsidizing the growth of broadband and G3 cell phones and so forth, while the US has sat back and is trusting the market to do it. It seems the market is not keeping up.

That's hardly the sole reason. Japan has a natural advantage when it comes to building the necessary infrastructure for broadband due to its compact and highly urbanized nature.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Yeah, I'm sure New York City has really high numbers of broadband users and quality.

[Dracon II]

How does Europe and the US compare in terms of underemployment and levels of casualization?

[Drake Tungsten]

Well, this sure is a timely article...

We're Rich, You're Not. End of Story.
By BRUCE BAWER

OSLO — THE received wisdom about economic life in the Nordic countries is easily summed up: people here are incomparably affluent, with all their needs met by an efficient welfare state. They believe it themselves. Yet the reality - as this Oslo-dwelling American can attest, and as some recent studies confirm - is not quite what it appears.

Even as the Scandinavian establishment peddles this dubious line, it serves up a picture of the United States as a nation divided, inequitably, among robber barons and wage slaves, not to mention armies of the homeless and unemployed. It does this to keep people believing that their social welfare system, financed by lofty income taxes, provides far more in the way of economic protections and amenities than the American system. Protections, yes -but some Norwegians might question the part about amenities.

In Oslo, library collections are woefully outdated, and public swimming pools are in desperate need of maintenance. News reports describe serious shortages of police officers and school supplies. When my mother-in-law went to an emergency room recently, the hospital was out of cough medicine. Drug addicts crowd downtown Oslo streets, as The Los Angeles Times recently reported, but applicants for methadone programs are put on a months-long waiting list.

In Norway, the standard line is that there must be some mistake, that such things simply should not happen in "the world's richest country." Why do Norwegians have such a wealthy self-image? Partly because, compared with their grandparents (who lived before the discovery of North Sea oil), they are rich. Few, however, question whether it really is the world's richest country.

After I moved here six years ago, I quickly noticed that Norwegians live more frugally than Americans do. They hang on to old appliances and furniture that we would throw out. And they drive around in wrecks. In 2003, when my partner and I took his teenage brother to New York - his first trip outside of Europe - he stared boggle-eyed at the cars in the Newark Airport parking lot, as mesmerized as Robin Williams in a New York grocery store in "Moscow on the Hudson."

One image in particular sticks in my mind. In a Norwegian language class, my teacher illustrated the meaning of the word matpakke - "packed lunch" - by reaching into her backpack and pulling out a hero sandwich wrapped in wax paper. It was her lunch. She held it up for all to see.

Yes, teachers are underpaid everywhere. But in Norway the matpakke is ubiquitous, from classroom to boardroom. In New York, an office worker might pop out at lunchtime to a deli; in Paris, she might enjoy quiche and a glass of wine at a brasserie. In Norway, she will sit at her desk with a sandwich from home.

It is not simply a matter of tradition, or a preference for a basic, nonmaterialistic life. Dining out is just too pricey in a country where teachers, for example, make about $50,000 a year before taxes. Even the humblest of meals - a large pizza delivered from Oslo's most popular pizza joint - will run from $34 to $48, including delivery fee and a 25 percent value added tax.

Not that groceries are cheap, either. Every weekend, armies of Norwegians drive to Sweden to stock up at supermarkets that are a bargain only by Norwegian standards. And this isn't a great solution, either, since gasoline (in this oil-exporting nation) costs more than $6 a gallon.

All this was illuminated last year in a study by a Swedish research organization, Timbro, which compared the gross domestic products of the 15 European Union members (before the 2004 expansion) with those of the 50 American states and the District of Columbia. (Norway, not being a member of the union, was not included.)

After adjusting the figures for the different purchasing powers of the dollar and euro, the only European country whose economic output per person was greater than the United States average was the tiny tax haven of Luxembourg, which ranked third, just behind Delaware and slightly ahead of Connecticut.

The next European country on the list was Ireland, down at 41st place out of 66; Sweden was 14th from the bottom (after Alabama), followed by Oklahoma, and then Britain, France, Finland, Germany and Italy. The bottom three spots on the list went to Spain, Portugal and Greece.

Alternatively, the study found, if the E.U. was treated as a single American state, it would rank fifth from the bottom, topping only Arkansas, Montana, West Virginia and Mississippi. In short, while Scandinavians are constantly told how much better they have it than Americans, Timbro's statistics suggest otherwise. So did a paper by a Swedish economics writer, Johan Norberg.

Contrasting "the American dream" with "the European daydream," Mr. Norberg described the difference: "Economic growth in the last 25 years has been 3 percent per annum in the U.S., compared to 2.2 percent in the E.U. That means that the American economy has almost doubled, whereas the E.U. economy has grown by slightly more than half. The purchasing power in the U.S. is $36,100 per capita, and in the E.U. $26,000 - and the gap is constantly widening."

The one detail in Timbro's study that didn't feel right to me was the placement of Scandinavian countries near the top of the list and Spain near the bottom. My own sense of things is that Spaniards live far better than Scandinavians. In Norwegian pubs, for example, anyone rich or insane enough to order, say, a gin and tonic is charged about $15 for a few teaspoons of gin at the bottom of a glass of tonic; in Spain, the drinks are dirt-cheap and the bartender will pour the gin up to the rim unless you say "stop."

In late March, another study, this one from KPMG, the international accounting and consulting firm, cast light on this paradox. It indicated that when disposable income was adjusted for cost of living, Scandinavians were the poorest people in Western Europe. Danes had the lowest adjusted income, Norwegians the second lowest, Swedes the third. Spain and Portugal, with two of Europe's least regulated economies, led the list.

Most recently, the Danish Ministry of Finance released a study comparing the income available for private consumption in 30 countries. Norway did somewhat better here than in the KPMG study, lagging behind most of Western Europe but at least beating out Ireland and Portugal.

The thrust, however, was to confirm Timbro's and Mr. Norberg's picture of American and European wealth. While the private-consumption figure for the United States was $32,900 per person, the countries of Western Europe (again excepting Luxembourg, at $29,450) ranged between $13,850 and $23,500, with Norway at $18,350.

Meanwhile, the references to Norway as "the world's richest country" keep on coming. An April 2 article in Dagsavisen, a major Oslo daily, asked: How is it that "in the world's richest country we're tearing down social services that were built up when Norway was much poorer?"

Obviously, this is one misconception that won't be put to rest by a measly think-tank study or two.

Bruce Bawer,a freelance writer based in Oslo, reports frequently on social and cultural issues.

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/04/17/we...w/17bawer.html

Superior economic model indeed...

[Sandman]

Not exactly a balanced article, is it? He could have pointed out that Norway has a higher life expectancy than the US, for example.

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by Sandman
Not exactly a balanced article, is it?

Opinion pieces rarely are.

[Dinner]

I don't think anyone was seriously calling for a high tax Scandinavian model but instead most people here call for a model like that found in Holland, Spain, Ireland, or the UK. Relatively low taxes, stress on entrepreneurship, combined with civic responsibility towards those less fortunate. That means much cheaper education for everyone who scores decent on standardized tests, basic health coverage for everyone (all extras are on their own dime), and a modest but progressive tax rate. We do need to simplify the tax code and we do need to make sure we don't tax companies to death but we also need to stop wasting money on corporate welfare and insane defense budgets.

Around half of our defense budget is pure pork with three nearly identical air superiority fighters (because Congressmen all want their local company to feed at the trough), worthless armored vehicles like the stryker which don't even work as advertised, wasting billions buying new rifles which are only ever so slightly better then the M-16 (almost the same in every area except it costs twice as much and it has an ever so slightly lower jamming rate but even that goes away if the M-16 is properly cared for), and a million other things. We have .75 officers for every enlisted man meaning we have a bunch of dead wood in the officer corp which needs to be cut. Do you think GE or IBM would allow there to be as many managers as workers?

Don't even get me started on the blatant pork projects like Bush's star wars... Yep, we could easily cut 1/3 of the defense budget simply by reducing waste and getting rid of unneeded programs. Don't look for a bought and paid for man like Bush to do it though. He doesn't do things which are good for the country he only does what moneyed people pay him to do.

[Lawrence of Arabia]

dont forget, there are no homeless in norway, the way we have homeless in save SF.

[Drake Tungsten]

Don't even get me started on the blatant pork projects like Bush's star wars... Yep, we could easily cut 1/3 of the defense budget simply by reducing waste and getting rid of unneeded programs. Don't look for a bought and paid for man like Bush to do it though. He doesn't do things which are good for the country he only does what moneyed people pay him to do.

Yeah, we all know there was no pork before Bush and that it will all be gotten rid of once Chimphitler is gone. Damn him!

[RGBVideo]

I noticed that several of the things in that article are true regarding to Finland also, but may be misleading... let me comment a bit:

Even as the Scandinavian establishment peddles this dubious line, it serves up a picture of the United States as a nation divided, inequitably, among robber barons and wage slaves, not to mention armies of the homeless and unemployed. It does this to keep people believing that their social welfare system, financed by lofty income taxes, provides far more in the way of economic protections and amenities than the American system.

This is true, at least in Finland. Our history teacher taught us in 7th grade elementary that the literacy in USA is around 80% and poverty rate around 20% ( ). Every pal at school believed it without choking.

They hang on to old appliances and furniture that we would throw out. And they drive around in wrecks. In 2003, when my partner and I took his teenage brother to New York - his first trip outside of Europe - he stared boggle-eyed at the cars in the Newark Airport parking lot, as mesmerized as Robin Williams in a New York grocery store in "Moscow on the Hudson."

In Finland, again this would be true comparing to US. This is due to high taxes on cars and gasoline and because you can't dump stuff without paying a separate pollution tax. I know it may sound amazing, but people here actually recycle furniture (teh horror, how can they live without brand new Lexus?). It's called saving money.

In Finland again, I've never seen any "serious" shortages of police officers, school supplies or library books (I'm a frequent visitor in my nearest library). Health care has been a mess for the last 5 years or so, though -- I think this has something to do with the politicians lobbying for a private health care system silently by diverting funds from vital health care services and cutting even more of the state nurses' wages (they can do it freely since the other main party, SDP, has most of the unions as it's puppets). We spend less of our GDP to health care than most western countries - less than Mexico, f. e.

One image in particular sticks in my mind. In a Norwegian language class, my teacher illustrated the meaning of the word matpakke - "packed lunch" - by reaching into her backpack and pulling out a hero sandwich wrapped in wax paper. It was her lunch. She held it up for all to see.

Yes, teachers are underpaid everywhere. But in Norway the matpakke is ubiquitous, from classroom to boardroom. In New York, an office worker might pop out at lunchtime to a deli; in Paris, she might enjoy quiche and a glass of wine at a brasserie. In Norway, she will sit at her desk with a sandwich from home.

...this would be again true in Finland, teachers brought some various sandwiches and snacks to school when I was there few years ago, they want sometimes to eat something healthy fast if feeling tired at the afternoon. It should be noted, however, that teachers get a free all-you-can-eat lunch from school along with students at 11AM.

Even the humblest of meals - a large pizza delivered from Oslo's most popular pizza joint - will run from $34 to $48, including delivery fee and a 25 percent value added tax.

So far, I've been talking about Finnish situation so I haven't been really able to tell you if the writer is a blatant liar or if he knows more of the local situation than I do. Not so know, since I've eaten in a Oslo pizza place myself, I can assure you that this is total, 100%, fine-refined bs. Pizza cost about 6$ back then, VAT included.

Not that groceries are cheap, either. Every weekend, armies of Norwegians drive to Sweden to stock up at supermarkets that are a bargain only by Norwegian standards.

This is true in towns neighbouring Sweden, it has something to do with Norwegeian goverments getting used to spending ludicrous amounts of money on buddy buddy -deals and their pet projects without a public outcry.

And fuel costs around $6/gallon since insane taxes, yes. I don't care much, since I use mass transit and bicycle (you can get faster with either of those in this city).

All this was illuminated last year in a study by a Swedish research organization, Timbro, which compared the gross domestic products of the 15 European Union members (before the 2004 expansion) with those of the 50 American states and the District of Columbia. (Norway, not being a member of the union, was not included.)

blah blah blah about the study

I've read the study they're talking about. It used (obsolete? the hell do I know) data which conflicted with both Eurostat AND CIA factbook.

Contrasting "the American dream" with "the European daydream," Mr. Norberg described the difference: "Economic growth in the last 25 years has been 3 percent per annum in the U.S., compared to 2.2 percent in the E.U. That means that the American economy has almost doubled, whereas the E.U. economy has grown by slightly more than half. The purchasing power in the U.S. is $36,100 per capita, and in the E.U. $26,000 - and the gap is constantly widening."

http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/...k/geos/no.html
http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/...k/geos/us.html
Norway: GDP / capita, PPP - $37,800 (2003 est.)
USA: GDP/capita, PPP - $37,800 (2003 est.)
Yeah, a 10k$ difference constantly widening, indeed...

It should be noted that the 'study' was funded and made by a political lobbying group and... frankly, I can't believe some morons are actually still believing it and using it as an argument. It uses false information to support it's (perfectly valid) points. I mean, wtf? It blatantly lies to us, you can see it for yourself by checking the pdf-study yourself, picking any country GDP stat and comparing it to either CIA's or Eurostat's data (yes I know the study is now few years old, I checked the data when it was released and it was still bs)... Don't people anymore check the validity of the reports the press feeds to it? Don't journalists in the press do it either?

In summary, that op-ed is crap. The author directly lies on several times and misleads you in other. Is NYT a tabloid paper when it runs crap like that on it's pages?

[Drake Tungsten]

Pizza cost about 6$ back then, VAT included.

Who knew Norway had the cheapest pizzas in the world?

[RGBVideo]

Uhm?

Are we talking about same sort of joints here? Or are we using different currency (I'm using US dollars)? Or are US pizzas 20 inches in diameter? What's so funny?

Hey, I was in Oslo 2001, larger pizza cost around 6$ when I translated in my mind. What can I say? I'm pretty sure it hasn't gone up to 40$...

EDIT: I just realised what was so funny. You've been having this little thing called inflation out of control during the last year, right? The hell if I can keep track of your trivial, unstable banana republic currency

[Drake Tungsten]

6 dollars for a large pizza is ridiculously cheap. Here in Japan its around $30 (without delivery) for a large pizza; it wouldn't surprise me if Norway was as expensive or more.

[DanS]

Are we talking about same sort of joints here? Or are we using different currency (I'm using US dollars)? Or are US pizzas 20 inches in diameter?

Yeh, something like 18 or 20 inches.