Game 152

[demipomme]

When playing the technology scenario in the testbed version I made a large army to kill the barbarians and was in the process of moving it over to kill them and then suddenly it said 'military efficiency down to 0% due to low supplies' and the cost in the economics window had gone to 214748364 (with a few more numbers outside the box). I'm pretty sure this wasn't meant to happen. Also, my unit's icon vanished from the map though if i clicked on the square then it was still there.

I've also had another 'still running last turn, cannot start new turn' crash. I think they occur when you click the next turn button too quickly.

Can anyone explain to me how to build a wall? And how to win at Attilla?

I'm not too keen on having 'light', 'medium' and 'heavy' for each type of unit. It just doesn't seem realistic to me.

[alms66]

Light, Medium and Heavy X are supposed to be the generic terms, which would later be replaced by a cultural specific term.

[demipomme]

Originally posted by alms66
Light, Medium and Heavy X are supposed to be the generic terms, which would later be replaced by a cultural specific term.

Is that cultural specific terms such as 'legion', 'phalanx' and 'cohort'?

How does that work say for cultures that never had cultural specific terms? For example some cultures never had chariots.

As well as a choice between 'light', 'medium' and 'heavy' I have a choice between 'axemen', 'spearmen' and 'swordsmen'. Is there benefit in having these distinctions? Is there significant difference in the fighting efficacy of infantry armed with spears and infantry armed with swords?

[alms66]

regarding cultural specific terms, your examples are correct

Chariots were literally called by "light", "medium", "heavy", so that's a bad example, but I know what you mean. That issue hasn't really been addressed for Clash as far as I know.

Regarding spearmen, axemen, swordsmen, etc., there is supposed to be a difference and use for the types, but I don't really think I ever got there with it, I'm not even sure what values they have in your version or if those values you have are the correct ones.

[Mark_Everson]

Originally posted by demipomme
(snip) and then suddenly it said 'military efficiency down to 0% due to low supplies' and the cost in the economics window had gone to 214748364 (with a few more numbers outside the box).

Congratulations, you've broken the economy! Obviously there's a bug in there somewhere. We used to get those more often, but I fixed a bunch of bugs, and so now they're harder to get. There are a few things you can do to help me find that bug. If you are running in batch mode, and if there is a stack trace that comes out in the DOS window, please report that. Also, you can send me the "economy.txt" file, which has a bunch of error reporting diagnostics in it.

I've also had another 'still running last turn, cannot start new turn' crash. I think they occur when you click the next turn button too quickly.

There are actually two things that can cause that message. The case were you click the button too quickly it just puts up that message but there is no hanging of the program. However, when there is a bug then you will get the "still running" message indicating that the program crashed somewhere in the execution of the previous turn. Essentially if the events box for the new turn eventually comes up then it is the former case, and otherwise the latter.

Can anyone explain to me how to build a wall? And how to win at Attilla?

Building a wall requires two basic steps. 1 planning the wall, and 2 allocating resources in the economy build the wall.

To plan the wall you need to push the wall button, then select the type of wall (I think wooden fort may be the only viable choice at this point), and then click on the map square where you want the wall to be built. When you have selected all the squares for which you want to plan walls, then click the and wall button. Once this is done then you need to go into the economy GUI and allocate resources to the "wall building" item. (Don't add points to the "wooden fort" infrastructure since as far as I know it does nothing, that's a bug that meant to clean up before demo 8 but never got around to it.)

The best way to win Attila is to build walls as fast and furious as you can. It sounds like you are thinking of this already, so I won't say any more...

[Max Sinister]

Don't know whether it helps - but I'd guess that the number was 2147483647, the highest possible signed 32-bit integer.

[demipomme]

Playing the Attilla scenario has become significantly more enjoyable now I can build walls, partly due to the fact I can win. Thanks for your help. I would point out though that despite securing all the cities and killing most of the enemy units, it took me at least as many turns again to track down the remenants of their army: two task forces, each with two mounted units. Not sure how realistic this is...

[Mark_Everson]

Originally posted by demipomme
Playing the Attilla scenario has become significantly more enjoyable now I can build walls, partly due to the fact I can win. Thanks for your help. I would point out though that despite securing all the cities and killing most of the enemy units, it took me at least as many turns again to track down the remenants of their army: two task forces, each with two mounted units. Not sure how realistic this is...

Yeah, I know that's frustrating. Although with the Huns it might be realistic. They moved much faster than what the Romans had IIRC. But anyway we still need to do more to avoid the tedium of tracking down a few insignificant units. Suggestions wecome in the thread Fixing the enemy units behind-the-lines problem .

[demipomme]

I don't really get anything in the 'Ruler' box. What does it mean to have slavery 57? Is it not unrealistically easy to change the power distribution?

One suggestion I do have with respect to the social test scenario is to separate riots and rebellions. Rioting would result in loss of production from a square and increase the chance of a rebellion. A rebellion would essentially be a new civ.

[demipomme]

Why are the random maps not random?

[demipomme]

When you enter an enemy's province for the first time, the first square you enter becomes your capital for that province. This is all well and good, but when you finally capture the true capital, you still have units delivered to some random square.

I have two suggestions:

-Call that initial capital something different and then automatically switch (or pop-up dialog box to switch) to the true capital when captured. You could call the initial capital something like: Headquaters (HQ), Strategic Headquarters (SHQ), Territorial Headquarter (THQ), Forward Operating Base (FOB) or Temporary Capital.

-Have the largest military unit in the province as the pseudo capital, then switch the capital to true capital when it is taken (either automatically or via pop-up dialog). The advantage here is that the capital is not some under-populated mountain where you first entered that is not worth the bother of defending.

As I like both of these ideas, perhaps both could be available. The player or AI can choose whether to have a temporary capital or a mobile command centre.

[alms66]

Originally posted by demipomme
When you enter an enemy's province for the first time, the first square you enter becomes your capital for that province. This is all well and good, but when you finally capture the true capital, you still have units delivered to some random square.

You need to move the capitol once you've conquered the province. When your cursor is over the tile that you want to move the capitol to, over the main map window, right-click and select "Set to Province Capitol".

[Mark_Everson]

Hi demi pomme:

Thanks for all the thoughts and identification of issues.

But. . . Could you try to put your comments in relevant threads, rather than having this one mishmash thread? We want to answer questions in a relevant place so that people in the future can find the answers. (Ans so we don't have to answer the same q. many times! Most of these should go in the D8 thread. The social test comments probably should go in the latest social thread here . There's also a thread on provinces and provincial organization somewhere. Usually you can just scan the top two pages of the forum and find a fairly relevant place to put your comments.

Thanks!

Mark

[LDiCesare]

Random maps are random unless you run with -seed in which case you always get the same map.

Is it not unrealistically easy to change the power distribution?

Yes. It should be harder. I don't think I implemented that part of the social model right, or it could be weak in that area. I'll blame myself first by default.

What does it mean to have slavery 57?

Well, all policies are more or less important, but having 100 figures for each is probably a bit too much, 10 would already be quite big. Anyway, slavery of 57 means you allow some slavery but with some limits. It could be something like not being allowed to kill slaves, allowing them to buy their liberty back. Very low slavery numbers would mean only indenture is allowed for instance. That probably needs explanations and refining, as just figures won't cut it, and 101 different descriptions is a bit too much.

[alms66]

Originally posted by LDiCesare
Well, all policies are more or less important, but having 100 figures for each is probably a bit too much, 10 would already be quite big. Anyway, slavery of 57 means you allow some slavery but with some limits. It could be something like not being allowed to kill slaves, allowing them to buy their liberty back. Very low slavery numbers would mean only indenture is allowed for instance. That probably needs explanations and refining, as just figures won't cut it, and 101 different descriptions is a bit too much.

I'll have to second that. Ten-step or less sliders would be much easier to work with. Perhaps a structure like this can be used to define the steps (one possible example of slavery defined)?

&ltslavery&gt
  &ltstep&gt
    &ltlabel&gtNone&lt/label&gt
    &ltdescription&gtNo slavery is allowed.&lt/description&gt
  &lt/step&gt
  &ltstep&gt
    &ltlabel&gtIndentured&lt/label&gt
    &ltdescription&gtOnly indentured slavery is allowed.&lt/description&gt
  &lt/step&gt
  &ltstep&gt
    &ltlabel&gtFull&lt/lable&gt
    &ltdescription&gtAll forms of slavery allowed.&lt/decription&gt
  &lt/step&gt
&lt/slavery&gt

What you see above is just the interface portion, there would have to be some sort of "effect" portion that defined the behavior of the sliders.

[Mark_Everson]

Hi everybody:

I would like to make another plea for people to put responses to the many miscellaneous topics covered in this scattered thread in the relevant organized discussion thread for the topic. For example the recent comments on slavery and what the Numbers mean should go in the most recent social model thread. If we don't do that, pretty much all the discussion and ideas contained in this thread will be lost whenever people stop posting here...

Sorry to be a pain. But I'm good at it!