US Troops Destroy Babylon

[Zkribbler]

Patroklos, perhaps you aren't outratged because you failed to read a list of the damage:

Among the damage found by Mr Curtis, who was invited to Babylon by Iraqi antiquities experts, were cracks and gaps where somebody had tried to gouge out the decorated bricks forming the famous dragons of the Ishtar Gate.

He saw a 2,600-year-old brick pavement crushed by military vehicles, archaeological fragments scattered across the site, and trenches driven into ancient deposits.

Vast amounts of sand and earth, visibly mixed with archaeological fragments, were gouged from the site to fill thousands of sandbags and metal mesh baskets. When this practice was stopped, large quantities of sand and earth were brought in from elsewhere, contaminating the site for future generations of archaeologists.

***

In his report, Mr Curtis accepted that initially the US military presence helped protect the site from looters. But he described as "regrettable" the decision to set up a base in such an important spot.

He found that large areas of the site had been covered in gravel brought in from outside, compacted and sometimes chemically treated to provide helipads, car parks and accommodation and storage areas. "The status of future information about these areas will therefore be seriously compromised," he said.

[Gatekeeper]

Y'know, I stopped reading this thread the second page in. Want to know why? Because while what the U.S.-led personnel did wasn't exactly the brightest thing in the world, the reaction in this thread has been downright childish, insulting and it sure as hell makes me want to jump right up there with the rabid right-wingers and tell everyone else to go to hell.

Humans are a f*cked up species, and this thread proves it.

Gatekeeper

[Urban Ranger]

You think it's all right for the US armed forces to do irrepairable damage to a world heritage site but not okay when others become upset because of it?

[Whaleboy]

What part of archeologically insignificant do you not undersand, or is it just that Whaleboy knows archeology best like the all other subjects?

Once again I predictably produce outrage? Take you tired "bleeding heart liberal" stereotype elsewhere . You don't need to know archeology to any detailed degree to know that this is a terrible thing, and attempting to rationalise it by saying that only objects of limited archeological importance were used by the US Army will cut about as much ice as a rotting penguin.

Gatekeeper: I am appalled and with good reason, much of the region's archeology is crucial for understanding the roots of todays civilisations, but that pails into insignificance compared to future generations comparing that archeology with our own, which is why it is our responsibility to preserve it. There are few places where this applies more than Babylon. History will only remember the stupidity and folly of this war, and as a sidenote, whereas Babylon gets an entire ****ing chapter... the end of which will likely refer to the above sidenote

[Proteus_MST]

After all I also wonder which reason the US-Army had to set up a Camp at the site.
Iraq is big, so wasn´t it possible for the Army to set up camp maybe 1-2 Miles away?

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by Evil Knevil
Yeah, well you would say that. It's your life excuse.

[Gatekeeper]

Originally posted by Urban Ranger
You think it's all right for the US armed forces to do irrepairable damage to a world heritage site but not okay when others become upset because of it?

Re-read my g*d*mn post again, UR. Did you see the part about "not the brightest thing in the world"? Good.

Others being upset? Yeah, I guess upset in a rabid, screw-all-the-Americans-they're-the-source-of-all-evil sort of way.

Gatekeeper

[Gatekeeper]

Originally posted by Whaleboy
Gatekeeper: I am appalled and with good reason, much of the region's archeology is crucial for understanding the roots of todays civilisations, but that pails into insignificance compared to future generations comparing that archeology with our own, which is why it is our responsibility to preserve it. There are few places where this applies more than Babylon. History will only remember the stupidity and folly of this war, and as a sidenote, whereas Babylon gets an entire ****ing chapter... the end of which will likely refer to the above sidenote

I'm something of an archeology buff myself, and what's happened is most distressing. But when "disagreement" turns into stereotypical anti-American crap, I draw the line. And, frankly, that's what a fair amount of this thread has regressed into. I suspect there's certain folks who don't give a sh*t about archeaology, and just saw this thread as an opening to spew filth about Americans.

Gatekeeper

[Sava]

just saw this thread as an opening to spew filth about Americans.

perhaps you should be pissed at the US military then for GIVING THEM SOMETHING TO SPEW FILTH ABOUT.

just a suggestion...

[Dinner]

Originally posted by Urban Ranger
You think it's all right for the US armed forces to do irrepairable damage to a world heritage site but not okay when others become upset because of it.

Stop being such a hypocrite. You know full well if they didn't build a base there then the Iraqis would loot the place until there was nothing left and you'd be the first in line to scream about the evil US not stopping them. The US builds a base to guard the site and minor damage occurs and you once again get your panties in a bunch.

Which is it UR? Which one of these scenarios is the lesser of two evils?

[Whaleboy]

I'm something of an archeology buff myself, and what's happened is most distressing. But when "disagreement" turns into stereotypical anti-American crap, I draw the line. And, frankly, that's what a fair amount of this thread has regressed into. I suspect there's certain folks who don't give a sh*t about archeaology, and just saw this thread as an opening to spew filth about Americans.

I'm not spewing anti-American "filth", I happen to think the war is a collosal blunder and that it is for visable reasons like this that will be remembered. Remember in the long term, the historical significance of Babylon totally dwarfs that of this little expedition.

[Dinner]

Originally posted by Whaleboy
I'm not spewing anti-American "filth",

If true then that would be a nice change.

[Alexander's Horse]

Babylon was destroyed by the Assyrians in 689bc so you can't blame the Americans.

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by Oerdin
You know full well if they didn't build a base there then the Iraqis would loot the place until there was nothing left and you'd be the first in line to scream about the evil US not stopping them.

How come this sounds so eeriely familiar?

Ah, yes. Something about how Iraqi is an imminent threat not only to the US but to the rest of the world as well.

Originally posted by Oerdin
The US builds a base to guard the site and minor damage occurs and you once again get your panties in a bunch.

Did I?

Originally posted by Oerdin
Which is it UR? Which one of these scenarios is the lesser of two evils?

So you are basing your argument on an untested and untestable hypothetical scenario?

[Dinner]

Please feel free to keep dodging the issue and pretending that you aren't a hypocritical bastard who is playing both sides of the fence.

[Gatekeeper]

Originally posted by Alexander's Horse
Babylon was destroyed by the Assyrians in 689bc so you can't blame the Americans.

Thanks for the smile, AH. I needed that.

Gatekeeper

[notyoueither]

Originally posted by Agathon
On a more serious note, this is terrible. These are world heritage sites IIRC. How would the US feel if someone decided to burn down Paul Revere's house?

They would anticipate the enemy to come by land?

[notyoueither]

Originally posted by Bkeela
It's news like this that makes news of US war casualties all the sweeter.

Only to *******s.

[notyoueither]

Originally posted by Whaleboy
This is a ****ing outrage . Tortured civilians, murderous insurgents and barbarian occupiers can be replaced, Babylon cannot. The only thing history will remember of this ill-fated exercise in American Machiaveillism and military/patriotic stupidity will be the defiling of this site and the complete ****-up of the Middle East and West-Islam relations for generations to come .

There's perspective for you. Kill, maim, and torture people, but now you've filled sandbags full of old rocks. You have gone too far!

[beingofone]

The last time any other nation thought that America should be in a war, was when the Nazis were 15 miles outside of Paris.

The United States occupation of Japan, Germany and Korea sure devastated those cultures and way of life.

Oh BTW - I am sure that the US government would accept payment of all the lend lease for WW2 loans anytime now.

[beingofone]

June 6, 1944. -NORMANDY- Three hundred French civilians were killed and thousands more wounded today in the first hours of America's invasion of continental Europe. Casualties were heaviest among women and children.

Most of the French casualties were the result of artillery fire from American ships attempting to knock out German fortifications prior to the landing of hundreds of thousands of U.S. troops Reports from a makeshift hospital in the French town of St. Mere Eglise said the carnage was far worse than the French had anticipated and reaction against the American invasion was running high. "We are dying for no reason," said a Frenchman speaking on condition of anonymity. "Americans can't even shoot straight. I never thought I'd say this, but life was better under Adolph Hitler."

The invasion also caused severe environmental damage. American troops, tanks, trucks and machinery destroyed miles of pristine shoreline and thousands of acres of ecologically sensitive wetlands. It was believed that the habitat of the spineless French crab was completely wiped out, threatening the species with extinction.

A representative of Greenpeace said his organization, which had tried to stall the invasion for over a year, was appalled at the destruction, but, not surprised.

"This is just another example of how the military destroys the environment without a second thought, " said Christine Moanmore.

"And it's all about corporate greed."

Contacted at his Manhattan condo, a member of the French government-in-exile who abandoned Paris when Hitler invaded said the invasion was based solely on American financial interests. "Everyone knows the President Roosevelt has ties to big beer," said Pierre LeWimp. "Once the German beer industry is conquered, Roosevelt's beer cronies will control the world market and make a fortune."

Administration supporters said America's aggressive actions were based in part on the assertions of controversial scientist Albert Einstein, who sent a letter to Roosevelt speculating that the Germans were developing a secret weapon, a so-called "atomic bomb." Such a weapon could produce casualties on a scale never seen before and cause environmental damage that could last for thousands of years.

Hitler has denied having such a weapon and international inspectors were unable to locate such weapons even after spending two long weekends in Germany. Shortly after the invasion began reports surfaced that German prisoners had been abused by Americans. Mistreatment of Jews by Germans at so-called "concentration camps" has been rumored but so far, remains unproven.

Several thousand Americans died during the first hours of the invasion and French officials are concerned that uncollected corpses pose a public health risk. "The Americans should have planned for this in advance," they said. "It's their mess and we don't intend to clean it up."

[Whaleboy]

If true then that would be a nice change.

If it is filth then it is surely the finest. Your nation should be honoured; I demand ticker tape!

There's perspective for you. Kill, maim, and torture people, but now you've filled sandbags full of old rocks. You have gone too far!

You think I'm joking?

[Dinner]

Originally posted by Whaleboy
You think I'm joking?

We know that you are not joking but we also know that you are a joke.

[Whaleboy]

*maniacal, and yet camp laugh*

No.

[DRoseDARs]

Originally posted by Gatekeeper

Originally posted by Alexander's Horse
Babylon was destroyed by the Assyrians in 689bc so you can't blame the Americans.

Thanks for the smile, AH. I needed that.

Gatekeeper

And again I repeat myself: Making excuses for inexcusable behaviour.

"Everyone has done it, so why can't we?" is, always has been, and forever shall be a bullsh*t defense.

[DRoseDARs]

The US troops went to the site TO PROTECT IT FROM DAMAGE AND LOOTING, not to cause more damage and loot it themselves.

[Evil Knevil]

Originally posted by beingofone
The last time any other nation thought that America should be in a war, was when the Nazis were 15 miles outside of Paris.

The United States occupation of Japan, Germany and Korea sure devastated those cultures and way of life.

Oh BTW - I am sure that the US government would accept payment of all the lend lease for WW2 loans anytime now.

Oh look, a big bag of bollocks. Atavistic endevour ROKS.

1/ This is Iraq, not Japan or France.
2/ AFAIK The allied forces didn't desecrate any archeological sites during the period of occupation after WW2. The Russians maybe, the bombing of Dresden sure. They were also crimes. Surely you're not saying they had do destroy Babylon to save it?
3/ By your logic, we should be supporting the Russians in Chechnya, because of them saving our asses in WW2.

Read some books(any without pictures would be a start), and come back with some better arguments.

[Spiffor]

While I find the news sad, I'm not too much appaled by it. Babylon has been destroyed plenty of times. It's very likely that almost all of its tresures and of its historical hints have been lost to destruction and pillage; the archeologists of today have but traces of what Babylon could have offered if it hadn't been repeatedly destroyed. I don't think the American damage on Babylon will significantly raise the humongous losses the city has already experienced.

What saddens me is not that a military force is further damaging a world heritage site. What really saddens me is that I thought we, in the developed countries, evolved to the point of really valuing our heritage, and really understanding the importance of keeping it for future generations. It's really sad to see we continue not to care about it

[child of Thor]

Originally posted by Gatekeeper


Re-read my g*d*mn post again, UR. Did you see the part about "not the brightest thing in the world"? Good.

Others being upset? Yeah, I guess upset in a rabid, screw-all-the-Americans-they're-the-source-of-all-evil sort of way.

Gatekeeper

But they are aren't they - i thought we all knew that

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/4185205.stm - its all in black+white, so dont act too surprised. Your just going to have to accept that you are no longer on the side of Luke Skywalker and Ben Kenobi - Darth Vader and storm Troopers are what you've become

[beingofone]

Originally posted by Evil Knevil


Oh look, a big bag of bollocks. Atavistic endevour ROKS.

1/ This is Iraq, not Japan or France.
2/ AFAIK The allied forces didn't desecrate any archeological sites during the period of occupation after WW2. The Russians maybe, the bombing of Dresden sure. They were also crimes. Surely you're not saying they had do destroy Babylon to save it?
3/ By your logic, we should be supporting the Russians in Chechnya, because of them saving our asses in WW2.

Read some books(any without pictures would be a start), and come back with some better arguments.

We had an atavistic adventure - trying to save Europe from the well known surefast diplomatic agreement of 1937.
" I believe we shall have peace in our time". - Neville Chamberlain after the agreement signed with Hitler.

1- your grasp of geography is amazing.
2- you only missed the point by say oh, a trillion light years.
3- No I just grow tired of hearing all the propaganda spewed out by almost all news media that brainwashes the little guppies into believing that simply because the US is a superpower they are evil. That the intentions of the US are always suspect and they hide ulterior motives.
Every policy should be apposed because it is US policy.

I suppose the desecration of an ancient site is far worse then saving thousands of victims of gas attacks and mayhem.