New poker thread

[KrazyHorse]

how are things going (everybody that's been playing, that is). I had a pretty decent holiday season (1000$ in about 25 hours online). Last night was brutal though. Got beat bad on like 6 all-ins straight. Many of them were 3 outers or worse. Went down 260$ last night. Honestly, if I'd only carried as many hands as the probabilities dictated I would have been up at least 500$

[KrazyHorse]

What an fing streak. The really sad part is that I was playing well. Didn't make any really bad bets or calls the whole time. Put people on hands with pinpoint accuracy a lot of the time.

Fark.

[KrazyHorse]

Another hour of play and now I'm only down 130$

I think I'm going to satnd up for now. I feel like I'm going to start making bad calls soon.

[Dis]

you guys play poker with real money?

I think all of us at Apolyton should get a game of strip poker going.

[chequita guevara]

Teach me, oh sensai.

[Shi Huangdi]

You play poker online, I assume?

I've thought about doing that.(wouldn't have any money for anything except the microlimit games though). I usually do well in home games. I've also won over $1000 in play money on Yahoo Poker, but I know that doesn't mean much since the play there is so abyssmal. Do you think the free tables on partypoker or any of the other sites are good places where I could learn to play poker at a level where I could reasonably expect to win money on microlimit?

[Shi Huangdi]

Originally posted by Dissident
you guys play poker with real money?

I think all of us at Apolyton should get a game of strip poker going.

Frame this post: The worst idea in the history of Apolyton.

[KrazyHorse]

Originally posted by Shi Huangdi
You play poker online, I assume?

I've thought about doing that.(wouldn't have any money for anything except the microlimit games though). I usually do well in home games. I've also won over $1000 in play money on Yahoo Poker, but I know that doesn't mean much since the play there is so abyssmal. Do you think the free tables on partypoker or any of the other sites are good places where I could learn to play poker at a level where I could reasonably expect to win money on microlimit?

No. Play on UltimateBet though. They have 1cent-2cent limit tables (which is ridiculously low)

[KrazyHorse]

The play is sort of silly there too I imagine. The 0.25-0.5 tables are the first on which it is possible to actually make any money. Move up slowly from there (or stay there)

[KrazyHorse]

If anything, I suggest you play in a home game for small amounts of nmoney (money is important; if there's none people don't play at all logically). Look on it as learning. Discuss why you made certain moves with your friends after each hand.

The first thing to learn is about which starting hands to play, the value of kickers and how to calculate pot odds. Just with that you can beat most of the lowest limit tables online.

After that, you start to think about implied odds, bluffing (i.e. how much to do it and where it's appropriate) and how to put people on hands. These are skills valuable in limit games but most valuable in no limit.

Finally you want to start playing mind games with people. DO NOT DO THIS WITH BAD PLAYERS. THEY DON'T UNDERSTAND THE GAME ENOUGH FOR THIS **** TO MESS THEM UP. Learn to change gears rapidly and often. Learn to recognise opponents' grand strategy (if they have one) in addition to their style of play.

[KrazyHorse]

Another hour and now I'm back in the black by 110$

Phewf.

[KrazyHorse]

Che, what do you want me to teach you? The easiest thing to impart are starting hands. I'm giving you this on the assumption that none of you will be playing against me for serious money (not that I wouldn't want you to learn but that I don't want to tell opponents how I play)

The starting hands in Hold Em (the game which I am by far the most proficient in) come in a number of different categories. I'm assuming you're playing at a full (10 person) table. With less people you loosen your requirements

1) Big pairs (AA and KK). What am I going to tell you that you don't already know? Get as much money into the pot preflop as you can. You want 1 or 2 opponents in there with you. Raise a sizable amount (4X size of BB?) to get rid of the crap hands, but if you raise too much everybody will fold and you will win the blinds alone. Be careful if you have AA and flop comes K-Q-3 or something because youre opponent may have flopped 2 pair. Be very careful if you have KK and an ace comes on the flop because you can easily be beat now. Be very careful if you get 3 cards in the wheelhouse (10 through A) because your opponent may easily have just flopped 2 pair or a straight. In limit raise preflop, raise after the flop, can start just calling after flop if you're afraid of a monster hand.

2) Little pairs (2s through 10s): Drawing hands. Get in for cheap and try to hit a set, unless you're in late position (on the button, say) and everybody else has folded, in which case it's time to try stealing some blinds. In limit same advice applies. Remember that hitting a monster like a set pays off much less in limit, so with 2 raises before you act just throw the little pair away.

3) Frustrating pairs (QQ and JJ): the worst-played hands in Hold Em IMO. Raise with them (similar amount to above; 4X size of BB should be a pretty standard opening bet) but be careful if you get people showing a lot of strength. Assuming you're playing against decent players you're either a slight favourite (AK against QQ or JJ or AQ against JJ) or a big ****ing dog (KK or AA). You aren't going to be able to frighten away mediocre aces in limit, so bet unless you see overs hit. Then it's a judgment call. Bear in mind that people love aces, so if one hits and you have 2 callers on your raise preflop it's almost certain 1 has an ace. You can try one bet. If they both fold then you were lucky and ran into 2 smaller pocket pairs. If one calls or raises you're probably sunk.

4) AK: this deserves a section to itself. The beautiful thing about AK is that it's better than AQ. Even more beautiful is the fact that some players forget this. If you raise a significant amount preflop (which you should have), your opponent calls then an ace hits (but NO Queen or Jack) and your opponent raises you probably have them destroyed. Take them for everything they're worth.

5) other strong aces (A-Q, A-J, A-10 maybe A-9): READ THE SECTION ABOVE. AK BEATS YOUR SORRY ASS. BE CAREFUL. Depending on your position and the actions of the prior players you can raise preflop. If you see big raises and calls or big raises and reraises get your ass out of Dodge. You're beat by AK or KK or AA or some combination thereof. You certainly aren't a big favourite over anybody's hand (barring idiots) so why do you want to play with people who are either coinflips (small pocket pairs being played by idiots) or who have you wrecked (big pocket pairs and AK)

6) Weak aces. (A-2 to A-8 or A-9): never play a weak ace. Never play a weak ace. NEVER PLAY A WEAK ACE. You can either learn this lesson from me or by getting outkickered every time you hit your ace. The exception to this rule is when they're suited and you can sneak into an unraised pot with a lot of callers. Either you hit 2 pair or a flush or a flush draw or you leave. Period. This is a hand for no-limit. For limit your big hands don't pay enough to make this strategy worthwhile.

7) Two in the wheelhouse (K-10 (which is weak), K-J, K-Q, Q-10 (very weak), Q-J, J-10 (not as weak as you think)): you can play them on unraised pots or on small raises. Don't raise with them unless you're trying to steal a blind or something. Very "wait and see". If you hit top pair with them it's a judgment call as to whether or not you have the better kicker. Dangerous, but can pay off well against weaker players who just see that they have top pair and forget about their kickers. It's nice if they're suited but not necessary. Similar play in limit and no limit.

8) Small suited connectors (4-5 to 9-10): J-10 could go in here too as a pair of Jacks with a 10 kicker is not the best hand in the world. Get in on unraised pots with 5 callers and hope to hit a big hand (two pair or 3 of a kind) or a big draw (flush or outside straight). If you don't hit this get out and don't look back. People's bluffs are better than your hand a lot of the time.

9) Everything else: why would you play it? Might as well give me your money now and we'll call it even. I might play a K-9 suited on an unraised pot or even a K-5 suited. But remember that even if you hit your flush (1 in 15 over 5 cards on the board) there is such a thing as an Ace high flush to rape your King high flush. I've been the rapist on a lot of occasions so I should know. I'll play a "suited slightly off connector" like a 6-8 once in a blue moon if the blinds are cheap compared to the stacks and there are no raises (ONLY IN NO LIMIT) because I just might get the chance to bust somebody on a ridiculous hand...

Play these starting hands like this and you are guaranteed to already be better than most people at the lowest level.

[Ming]

Solid advice.

[asleepathewheel]

Wow, great tutorial

[Boris Godunov]

But I didn't understand half the jargon. We need a poker lexicon, too.

[KrazyHorse]

Advice as to general demeanor:

Be tight but aggressive. Choose the hands you want to play (in other words the ones on which you have your opponents beat) and then bet them. If you have the best hand bet. If you have the worst hand, why would you call? Calls are for when you're drawing to a monster (flushes or straights) if your opponent hasn't raised enough to make it too expensive or for the end when you're really unsure as to who has the better hand. Don't check to your opponent and let him draw out on you for free and dn't call with the worst hand and no draw. People bet with draws so don't be too afraid to reraise and see what they've really got. The worst thing in the world to be is a loose caller (never bets, always calls opponents' raises). The best thing in the world to be is tight raiser (not in there that much, but when they are they tear the hell out of the place). Don't go crazy, but remember that every time you bet there's a chance your opponent will fold. I've won so many hands by betting with a flush draw that it's not funny. YOUR OPPONENT MAY HAVE A WORSE HAND THAN YOURS, OR MAY BE SO TIMID AS TO FOLD THE BETTER HAND.

Be conscious of how the table acts. If they're ultratight be more aggressive with more hand and try to steal all the small pots. If they're ultraloose play tighter. Eventually you'll pick up a huge hand and they'll try betting you off of it.

Be conscious of table image (if you're playing against better players especially). The smarter they are the more chance they're taking note of how you play. If you've only shown the nuts so far then all of a sudden you'll find that your raises aren't being called any more. Now is the perfect opportunity to steal some pots. If you've had to show down weak hands then you're going to have a tough time pushing people off of hands. Tighten up and when you get a monster hand somebody will talk themselves into calling your big raises with a weaker hand.

[Shi Huangdi]

Originally posted by KrazyHorse
If anything, I suggest you play in a home game for small amounts of nmoney (money is important; if there's none people don't play at all logically). Look on it as learning. Discuss why you made certain moves with your friends after each hand.

The first thing to learn is about which starting hands to play, the value of kickers and how to calculate pot odds. Just with that you can beat most of the lowest limit tables online.

After that, you start to think about implied odds, bluffing (i.e. how much to do it and where it's appropriate) and how to put people on hands. These are skills valuable in limit games but most valuable in no limit.

Finally you want to start playing mind games with people. DO NOT DO THIS WITH BAD PLAYERS. THEY DON'T UNDERSTAND THE GAME ENOUGH FOR THIS **** TO MESS THEM UP. Learn to change gears rapidly and often. Learn to recognise opponents' grand strategy (if they have one) in addition to their style of play.

Thanks, this and the other post you made seem like excelllent advice. I've already done a little reading online and know about calculating pot odds vs. chances of hitting an out and such.

One more question, though, how do you typically deal with scare cards in low limit when you don't know much about how one person plays? Say for instance you have AA, flop comes up K55, and someone else raises. It could be that someone has a King and thinks they have the top pair, or it could me someone was rediculous and called the hand with Q5. This seems to be one of the big problems people complain about for very low limit poker, that if everybody calls everything and nobody folds, that somebody is likely to flop a big hand.

ALso, how do you typically handle the money transferring aspects of playing online? Is NetTeller very good for handling the money?

[KrazyHorse]

random poker terminology:

Board: the 5 community cards dealt face up

Flop: the first 3 community cards (round of betting afterwards)

Turn: the 4th community card (round of betting afterwards)

River: the 5th community card (round of betting afterwards)

Hole cards: the two cards dealt face down individually to each player in hold em

Kicker: second card, used to break ties. If I have A-9 in the hole, my opponent has A-J and the board is A-Q-7-5-2 then my best 5 card hand is AAQ97 while my opponent's is AAQJ7. Each has a pair of aces but even though the Queen kicker is the same in both cases his J "second kicker" is better than my 9 "second kicker"

Set: 3 of a kind

Preflop: the round of betting before the flop based solely on 2 hole cards

Nuts: the (an?) unbeatable hand. Say the board comes AA952. If I have AA in the hole I have the nuts (4 aces). However, if I have A-9 in the hole I also have the nuts (aces full of nines); since there's only one ace left the best my opponent could do is to tie me with the exact same hand.

EDIT: more lingo

Button: the dealer button. Cards are dealt clockwise starting with the position immediately clockwise of the dealer button. The dealer button moves 1 position clockwise after each hand.

Blinds: big blind and little blind. Generally BB is twice SB. SB is the player immediately clockwise of dealer button. BB is the next clockwise player. Forced bets before you look at your cards. Similar to an ante except not all players need to put up an equal amount every hand.

Position: where, relative to the dealer button you are. On the round of betting prior to the flop the first to act is immediately clockwise of the BB. He can either call the size of the BB, raise or fold. Assuming the SB stays in, on every subsequent round of betting he is the first to act. Betting always proceeds clockwise from the initial bettor. On every round after the flop, therefore, the man on the dealer button is the last to act (assuming he stays in). The later position you are in the better. You know more about what your opponents have done. It's much harder to bet from early position than it is from later, as you gain information from the way each player acts.

EDIT: still more lingo

flush draw: when you have 4 cards of the same suit with cards cards left to come. NOT 3 CARDS. 3 CARDS TO A FLUSH ON THE FLOP MEANS JACK ****. You are ~1 in 25 to hit your flush from here (aka runner-runner flush). A real flush draw is about 20% on each card, or around 35% over two cards. If you don't understand why it's not actually 40% (2 times 20%) then you should start learning about probabilities.

outside straight draw: when you can make a straight with either of two cards because you have 4 cards in a row. Say you have 6-7 and the flop is 4-5-Q. Either an 8 or a 3 makes you the straight. Similar is a double-gut or double-belly-buster straight when you can make a straight with two cards yet you don't already have 4 in a row. For instance, say you hold 6-7 and the flop comes 3-5-9. Either a 4 or an 8 makes a straight, but they are different straights than the previous ones. The probability on hitting either of these types of straight draws is around 18% on one card or 31% over two cards

inside straight draw aka gutshot straight draw aka belly-buster straight draw: where you can hit a straight with only one card: for instance you hold 6-7 and the flop is 5-9-Q. You need an 8 and an 8 alone. The probability of drawing this on 1 card is around 9% and on two cards around 17%

[KrazyHorse]

Originally posted by Shi Huangdi


Thanks, this and the other post you made seem like excelllent advice. I've already done a little reading online and know about calculating pot odds vs. chances of hitting an out and such.

One more question, though, how do you typically deal with scare cards in low limit when you don't know much about how one person plays? Say for instance you have AA, flop comes up K55, and someone else raises. It could be that someone has a King and thinks they have the top pair, or it could me someone was rediculous and called the hand with Q5.

There's no one way to do it. In that situation in strict limit I would definitely reraise and see what my opponent does. By far the most likely situation is that he has a strong king. Don't go crazy though. SOmetimes you have to fold the better hand. Remember also than in strict limit it's possible to call your opponent down and see his hand. Likeliest situation (assuming I act later than he does) is that he will bet, I will raise, he will call. Next card he will check I will bet he will call, unless a Q comes or something and he's hit 2 pair, in which case he might bet. Remember that the 5 might be out there, but that it's probably not if you had very few people seeing the flop. With 8 people in the hand it's impossible to say that none of them has a five. Hell, with 8 people in the hand I'd call a small raise preflop with almost anything.

[KrazyHorse]

And yes, it is frustrating sometimes to play limit with really bad players. In that case, bide your time. You'll be folding aces a lot, but their lack of understanding of exactly how often they hit will pay you off in the long run.

This seems to be one of the big problems people complain about for very low limit poker, that if everybody calls everything and nobody folds, that somebody is likely to flop a big hand.

ALso, how do you typically handle the money transferring aspects of playing online? Is NetTeller very good for handling the money?

I use FirePay. NetTelller doesn't work in MD for some reason. I have never had a problem. It takes a few days for transactions to clear and a few days for them to confirm your identity at the start, but they've given me no trouble with withdrawals through them.

Firepay is currently charging 3.99 for each deposit to Firpay from your regular bank (i've only made 1 such deposit so far; the initial 100$ I put in). Transferring money to and from Firepay via online "merchants" (i.e. gambling websites) is free, as are withdrawals from firepay to your regular bank.

So what I've done is: deposit 100$ to firepay (cost to me 3.99), move that money to pokerroom.com (cost 0$ to me), withdraw money (my winnings) from pokerroom.com to firepay (cost 0$ to me) and then withdraw that money (my winnings) to my bank account (cost 0$ to me).

EDITed to show that I approve of FirePay's service so far, as my original post appears to have been gibberish

[Dis]

Originally posted by Shi Huangdi


Frame this post: The worst idea in the history of Apolyton.

thank you, that's what I was going for.

[KrazyHorse]

Oh, and my final advice is: put a certain amount of money into your poker account and promise yourself that that is IT. If you lose it all, then you've lost it all. Don't refill your poker account from your bank account. It's like constantly pumping money into a business you started which is losing money. That's the way to go broke gambling. If you aren't good enough at poker, or don't have the discipline to play logically, or whatever the reason you lost your whole bankroll then don't turn into a ****ing gambling addict who's going to go broke chasing something which won't ever happen.

I put in 100$ and told myself that was it. If I lose the 700$ (this is a good level for my bankroll given the size of the tables I play at) sitting in my poker account right now that will be it too. I'm never refilling that ****er from my own money. For me it's a business that makes money. If it ever stops being that then I'll quit...

[DanS]

Good standard advice, KH. You read Super System, I take it?

However, Doyle suggests not going very fast with AA pre-flop (4x would be ultra-fast, in my book), but rather to wait for people's hands to catch up with yours. Of course, if somebody bets ultra-fast into you, you do as the Romans do in Rome. But what's your rationale in betting AA ultra-fast otherwise?

I get a headache playing on-line poker, so I may not continue playing it. Don't know why I do, but the headache is equally as bad when I'm winning or losing. I've figured out how to be a consistent winner at the lower stake single-table tournaments.

[KrazyHorse]

Originally posted by DanS
Good standard advice, KH. You read Super System, I take it?

I'm reading it now (got it for Christmas). Much of it I'd already discovered on my own. The starting hand advice is my own, but it mirrors Doyle's in many places.

However, Doyle suggests not going all-in with AA pre-flop, but rather to wait for people's hands to catch up with yours. Of course, if somebody bets ultra-fast into you, you do as the Romans do in Rome. But what's your rationale in betting AA ultra-fast otherwise?

Not betting ultrafast. But especially if I'm in late position and there are 4 calls already I don't see why I shouldn't bet a significant amount. Otherwise you're just begging people to hit something stupid. In early position or with very few callers I might bet slightly less in order to entice a call from a marginal hand. But not betting at all at a full table is just plain stupid IMO. Slow playing is one thing. Overly slowplaying is the worst thing you can do with aces.

I get a headache playing on-line poker, so I'm not going to continue playing it. Don't know why I do, but the headache is equally as bad when I'm winning or losing. I've figured out how to be a consistent winner at the lower stake single-table tournaments.

Good for you.

I'm a consistent winner at everything up to the 50+4 single table tournaments (top prize 250$ isn't so bad...). I believe that I can beat the 100+8 tables too from what I've seen. Will be cautious in stepping up to them. That's a lot of money, but the payoff is also larger. Am only playing 50+4 and 30+3 right now, except when a 100+8 shows up or when there's no action at anything bigger than 20+2. I find the 10+1 and 5+1 (especially) tables ridiculous and get too frustrated playing them.

[DanS]

I've DanS'ed you, but what you say still stands.

I may continue playing. We'll see.

You are getting into higher stakes territory. Given your modest bankroll, it's probably best to just stick with what you're doing for a while until your bankroll can handle those stakes.

[KrazyHorse]

dp

[DanS]

You really need to get yourself to Vegas, dude. You ought to go for spring break. They've got a good poker room at the Bellagio. But come with a reasonable bankroll, since the lowest tables are $2/5 blinds.

[KrazyHorse]

Originally posted by DanS
I've DanS'ed you, but what you say still stands.

I may continue playing. We'll see.

You are getting into higher stakes territory. Given your modest bankroll, it's probably best to just stick with what you're doing for a while until your bankroll can handle those stakes.

a mix of 50+4 and 30+3 tournaments are pretty fine with 700$ in the bank. If I go on a losing streak I tend to step down for a few hours into 20+2 and 10+1 range in order both to boost confidence and lower risk of driving bankrupt.

700$ is not even close to enough for 100+8 exclusively. Need 2000$ or so for that. Need 1300$ or so for mix of 100 and 50 IMO. If my edge is too small or nonexistent in 100 I have no problem going back to 50.

The other thing is that playing 20s I hardly learn anything new any more. Playing at 50 I am always learning. You see many more tricky plays etc. and are thus able to use them yourself or counter them. I enjoy getting better at this in addition to making money. 100$ is a lot of money, but I've played two so far and am even on them, despite having gotten slammed by a 3-out beat on an all-in with 4 players left in one of them. The quality of players was similar to the 50 crowd, and in fact I'd already played against a few of the players at that table for lower stakes (and beat them, I might add)

[KrazyHorse]

Originally posted by DanS
You really need to get yourself to Vegas, dude. You ought to go for spring break. They've got a good poker room at the Bellagio. But come with a reasonable bankroll, since the lowest tables are $2/5 blinds.

I'm going with my friend (the one who taught me how to play and who is, IMO the only person I play regularly online or in person who is better than me) on his bachelor party at end of Feb.

[KrazyHorse]

2/5 is smallest even for NL? Eesh. Need 1000-1500$ for that at least