Logistics

[:) Smiley]

The topic of logistics is hardly ever seen in strategy games, where it's all about tactics, tactics, and more tactics. Does anyone know of any games that put the focus on logistics, supply lines, economics, and the like?

[Barinthus]

IIRC RON had some logistics stuff but probably not to the extend you are looking for.

[Standup]

Operational Ar of War 2, i think, has a supply element. It still quite tactical though from what i remember - another game on my 'to play' pile.

Some of the Panzer General series had a basic supply element - fuel & ammo and penalties for being 'out of supply'.

SOmething like Imperialism 2 has a large element of economics and supply on a strategic scale.

[DrSpike]

Best bet is to ask the wargamers.

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by Smiley
The topic of logistics is hardly ever seen in strategy games, where it's all about tactics, tactics, and more tactics. Does anyone know of any games that put the focus on logistics, supply lines, economics, and the like?

What about Capitalism? Does that count?

[DrSpike]

Well, does it have a focus on logistics, supply lines, economics, and the like?

[Illuminatus]

The Operational Art of War (TOAW) series.

HoI

Korsun Pocket

And probably the most complex game ever made, War in the pacific.

[DarkCloud]

KOHAN:Immortal Soverigns has a focus on supply lines... sort of.

If your units aren't within the supply zone of a city or outpost, they can't regenerate.

And generally KOHAN is a great game, so I suggest that you purchase it!

(I picked it up for christmas- the original version, not the expansion) It's much different from a regular RTS. Buildings have continual resource maintenance costs instead of lump sum- so there's never any downtime!

[DrSpike]

Kohan's not a bad game, but it most certainly does not meet the requirements.

[Dis]

Korsun's Pocket is supposed to be a fantastic game. But I've been reluctant to purchase wargames. I'm not sure if I'd like them. Is there a demo out for these games. What about a demo for operational art of war? That's supposed to be real good as well. But I've never really played detailed war games such as that.

I find too much micromanagement to be tedius. Like the Red Front scenario for Civ2. Far too many units to move around.

[General Ludd]

Hearts of Iron 2 is said to have a sophisticated logistics model.

M.A.X. also had micro-manage level logistics, where everything needed to be resuplied with ammo. (and fuel?)

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by DrSpike
Well, does it have a focus on logistics, supply lines, economics, and the like?

It's mainly an economy game, buying material, making and selling widgets. So I'd say yes.

[Main_Brain]

Transport Tycoon is mainly about logistics.

[DrSpike]

Originally posted by Urban Ranger


It's mainly an economy game, buying material, making and selling widgets. So I'd say yes.

Well then to answer your earlier question, yes.

Glad to be of service.

[lord of the mark]

Seems there are two aspects to logistics, broadly speaking. 1.Economics - what to do we build, and how, and how do we keep the economy going during (and even prior to) war. 2. The other is how do we keep troops in the field supplied - A. How do we keep supply lines open B. How do we allocated supplies, ensure we have enough assets to transport supplies, protect them, etc.


1 is the realm of the civilian leaders, 2a is the realm of the combat officers at any level above tactical, and 2b is the realm of the supply and logistics officers.

1, economics broadly is found generally in grand strategy games - Axis and Allies, Third Reich, the Paradox games - and, in a different fashion, in the imperialisms. And, in a less realistic, but still sometimes interesting fashion, in 4X games like Civ. and, in a more cartoonish fashion, in RTS games.

2A and 2B - is generally NOT handled outside "wargames" properly so-called, (im not familiar with how paradox games handles this)

One constant challenge is how to handle 2a without burdening the player with the micromanagement of 2b - you want players to avoid doing unrealist things like moving an army without regard for protecting its supply lines, but you dont want players (in most games) to have to worry about allocating trucks, and so forth. Different wargames offer different solutions.

At a strategic level you may sometimes WANT to have 2b be central. Im currently reading Churchill on WW2, and its striking the extent to which the constraining factor on both sides was shipping. A WW2 strat game that doesnt reflect that is unrealistic, even if its more "fun".

PG2 solution is a combination of supply, replacements, and reinforcements based on prestige points. While it works well as a gameplay device, its not particularly realistic. In particular you can be resupplied even when surrounded (IIRC) as long as youre not in direct contact with the enemy. Civil War General also allowed resupply without reference to open Lines of Communication, though it didnt do the prestige thing.

Im not familiar enough with enough recent war games to discuss how they handle them.

City builders and tycoon games often get into the details of supply and transport, but I assume you mean in the context of armed conflict.

[:) Smiley]

What does KOHAN stand for?

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Dissident
Korsun's Pocket is supposed to be a fantastic game. But I've been reluctant to purchase wargames. I'm not sure if I'd like them. Is there a demo out for these games. What about a demo for operational art of war? That's supposed to be real good as well. But I've never really played detailed war games such as that.

I find too much micromanagement to be tedius. Like the Red Front scenario for Civ2. Far too many units to move around.

theres definitely a demo for TOAW, it includes the opening days (weeks?) of the Korea scenario. Its doesnt include a manual of course, and its not real easy to figure out the rules of that quite complex game. So probably not a good place to start. Theres also a demo of Age of Rifles, a somewhat simpler design by the same designer (Norm Koger) who did TOAW.

Im not sure where to get these demos these days. You might try asking on CSIPG.warhistorical, if USENET is ok for you.

In general you can find older used wargames for not very much money. Try an EB or other place with lots of used games (be very patient) or try Ebay.

[Spaced Cowboy]

Looks like HOI2 is going to model logistics and make you pay attention to it. It will stop steamrolling in the game.

Me want this one.

[Spaced Cowboy]

There is an early demo:

http://www.gamershell.com/download_7840.shtml

[DrSpike]

Originally posted by Smiley
What does KOHAN stand for?

IIRC nothing; it's a name.

[problem_child]

Hearts of Iron II

[Verto]

Originally posted by Smiley
The topic of logistics is hardly ever seen in strategy games, where it's all about tactics, tactics, and more tactics. Does anyone know of any games that put the focus on logistics, supply lines, economics, and the like?

Operation Iraqi Freedom.

[DarkCloud]

Kohan's not a bad game, but it most certainly does not meet the requirements.

Depends how loosely you want to interpret them. The building of outposts and increasing supply ranges certainly seems logistical to myself.

[DrSpike]

Well I don't think it's what he is after. If it is, then lots of games fit his requirements.

[:) Smiley]

Originally posted by Verto
Operation Iraqi Freedom.

You more or less summed it up there.

[lord of the mark]

smiley, im still not clear on what aspects of logistics you mean. See my post above.

[DarkCloud]

In answer to Smiley's other question: KOHAN doesn't actually stand for anything other than the race of immortal heroes who lead your troops into battle. the full title is: Kohan: Immortal Sovereigns

[:) Smiley]

LOTM, both economics and supply. On the economic side, it would mean more than one type of generic production resource, which would need to be available through supply lines. Sort of like Civ3 special resources but more in depth.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Smiley
LOTM, both economics and supply. On the economic side, it would mean more than one type of generic production resource, which would need to be available through supply lines. Sort of like Civ3 special resources but more in depth.

Edit: that clarifies things - see below post.

[lord of the mark]

So it sounds like you mean something on the lines of a Civ type TBS, not a detailed historically accurate war game.

Have you tried the Imperialisms? That might be right up your alley, or might be too much of a good thing.

In those you need to develop, ship and process several resources. Not only do you need the right amounts, and adequate labor forces (which can be leveraged through training) but you have to transport the resources - in Imp2 (early modern) for domestic resources you build roads. For overseas resources, you build a port, build roads to a port, and allocate ships. Ships must be allocated between resource imports, trade, and combat. In Imp1 (ive only played the demo) you have to expend resources on factory capacity, and building a rail line isnt enough - you have to build and allocate rolling stock.

However you do NOT have to establish supply lines to your forces. All of the above economic model is needed to BUILD forces. While you need food to support forces (as well as labor) you dont actually have to establish a line of communication to them. Lessens the realism of that side of things.