2154: Pre-planning discussion and build/movement orders

[Googlie]

Some decisions to be made right off the bat when we open the turn:

1) Next base site:

Should we proceed with the Hernes & cargo to the 2-nut site (Base established in 2155) or take 1 turn longer to settle on the Manifold Nexus (2156)

Threat Evaluation:

The Uni have no colony pods in transit nor in production

The Hive has no colony pods homed to their nearest bases to us, but does have one on the prowl homed to Great Collective

The Peacekeepers have 2 clony pods on the loose, but one is homed to their easternmost base, while the other is homed to thweir southernmost base

I reckon the Hive encroachment to be slightly more of a problem (although IMO not huge right now) whereas the Nexus site doesn't seem to be in any danger of getting filled any time soon.

So on balance, I favor the original plan of settling between the 2 nut tiles on the coast south of the Great Fungal Wall

2) Pod Popping

after switching to a speeder crawler in both Rio Grande and SC3, I suggest we let the Hunter pop both those pods off the Morgan coastline (or just the first, if we do get a minerals completion goody again)

And as a rule of thumb, if we encounter a seapod with one of our 2 foils, and it has at least 3 mp's left, I suggest changing the nearest base production to a speeder crawler and popping the pod (so long as it's attacking from the seaward side, as any IOD's will make for the nearest land)

[Googlie]

Then there's the question: "Do we accept Zak's surrender after we capture Okt-Dis?"

As Maniac says - we only get one kick at the cat, so if we do, we're forfeiting MonStat (unless we bully him into transferring control)

but as M also displays, we can plonk a base closeby that will get use of both those boreholes (and it'll be mega-minerals and mega-energy!!)

(As an aside, if we do capture Okt_Dis, and Zak calls, what happens if we refuse to take his call, and go on to capture Mon Stat. Will he then call again and offer surrender?)

And as another aside, in ten simulation runs, our longstrider destroyed the perim defense in 8 (but was lost in 4, including both the unsuccessful ones)

[Modo44]

Originally posted by Googlie
1) Next base site:

Should we proceed with the Hernes & cargo to the 2-nut site (Base established in 2155) or take 1 turn longer to settle on the Manifold Nexus (2156)

Would we be able to capture Worms, if we had the Manifold Nexus? Are we allowed to make a cash factory out of them? If yes, let's settle in the Manigfold Nexus. Otherwise, let's keep Yang from expanding, by settling near his curent border.


I'd accept Zak's surrender, but only with Monitoring Station captured. It's within reach, and a very powerful base, so we should get it.

[Kassiopeia]

(As an aside, if we do capture Okt_Dis, and Zak calls, what happens if we refuse to take his call, and go on to capture Mon Stat. Will he then call again and offer surrender?)

He will give the usual "I won't give up no matter what you say" speech, the same he'd give after refusing an offer of submission, which leads me to believe that if he calls us after we take OktDis, it's then or never.

I'd accept Zak's surrender, but only with Monitoring Station captured. It's within reach, and a very powerful base, so we should get it.

I don't think it's worth the risk of prolonged military engagement. Our interests may shift quickly elsewhere. If we refuse submission once Zak offers it, we can't get it again. Then we'll have to go all the way through total conquest and annexation.

Of course, were we to take MonitStat before OtkDis, this could be arranged, but the current military plans we have can't really be adapted to that without endangering the whole operation.

[Modo44]

I don't understand one thing. Why are we so conservative with Monitoring Station? Yes, taking it by force will probably cause us to lose one or two Elite units. But this base can make Commando replacements in no time, or am I missing something? Same goes for it's potential to rebuild structures. If we're planning to end the war with Zak anyway, I think we should bite the bullet, and take the big prize. Or am I missing a detail that spoils the cake?

[Kassiopeia]

I don't think I'm being conservative. I just don't think the prize is worth a prolonged war, that is all. I'd bend over backwards to get us Monitoring Station if it still meant we wouldn't have to invest much in Arcadia. Every turn we spend at war with them is another turn we risk having a two-front war. Zak will be useful enough as a submissive pact mate.

I do think this discussion is premature, I have my doubts about Zak offering us submission right after OtkDis.

[Googlie]

Originally posted by Modo44
Would we be able to capture Worms, if we had the Manifold Nexus?

Yes - we'd move to a +1 Planet rating

[Kassiopeia]

Damn, got to love those bonuses. The "Breakthroughs: 84 turns" part makes me feel a bit uneasy, being a Builder by nature and all, but since we're on "War mode" it's bearable... it's not like we actually do any research anyway!

[Googlie]

Hmm - Interesting

With the simulator I can capture Otk-Dis, whereupon Zak calls and offers surrender. I accept his submission, then tell him that he must turn over one of his bases to me - Mon Stat.

When he asks "And what do you offer" and I reply "Name your price", he says "160 ec's" (2/3rds of my reserves!!). I pay and the base is mine.

2nd iteration, when he asks, I say "Or I will cancel this pact" whereupon he says "It's your's - I never did want this worthless base"

So it's worth a try next turn after we take Otk-Dis.

Being an AI diplomacy test (next turn, that is) we should have someone parallel play that sequence to ensure that Zak does agree to transfer control of the base and that the asking doesn't screw up the submission

[Kassiopeia]

I have ready access to SMAX, and will most likely be awake and available when needed, so I can be the parallel player.

Zak submitting AND giving us MonitStation would be the best of both worlds, of course.

[Googlie]

I'll save the gameturn just before entering the empty base so that the test can be run from that point (The game can't be saved while the diplo window is open, unfortunately)

[Maniac]

Some micromanaging suggestions and observations thought of while looking at the turn:

The artifact and three elite hoplites & scout patrol could move out of VV to the eastern tip and board the SNC Mercury, waiting in (70.10). That way the transport will be back sooner in Arcadia University.

For formers Tomcat-OA1 and Tomcat-VV1 Googlie suggested before to let them plant a forest on (65.13). Seems useful to me.

Gythium Harbour needs to work the 3-1-0 tile in order not to shrink back to size 3. This means the SC2 worker will have to be relocated back to a 2-1-0 tile.

After capturing Otkrietia-Discovery we can rehome some troops.

We could:

Hurry Fort Buster crawler for 15 credits, if the base produces 15 mins after harvesting the rocky minerals mine.

Hurry SC1 Crypteia production with 1 mineral = 6 credits. Next year it will then have 10 minerals accumulated and it could be hurried further at a lower cost. This to speed up probe protection in Vladivostok.

Hurry OA crawler with 3 credits.

We’re swimming in credits. And due to the materials pod we now need less to upgrade crawlers and invest in the Citizen’s Defence Force. So if we wanted we could also hurry production in for example Argos, SC2 or SC3. Or do we want to save for future unit upgrades?

[Maniac]

Originally posted by Googlie
And as another aside, in ten simulation runs, our longstrider destroyed the perim defense in 8 (but was lost in 4, including both the unsuccessful ones)

If we aren't offered or don't accept submission next year, we could perhaps move AU's Crypteia south, in range of Monitoring Station. That way we'd have two shots to destroy the perimeter defence.

after switching to a speeder crawler in both Rio Grande and SC3, I suggest we let the Hunter pop both those pods off the Morgan coastline (or just the first, if we do get a minerals completion goody again)

I certainly agree with popping the nearest one. But the second one is on fungus. SCC Hunter's turn would be ended after moving onto it. So if we pop an IoD, we're toast. Wouldn't waiting a turn to pop that pod be safer?

And as a rule of thumb, if we encounter a seapod with one of our 2 foils, and it has at least 3 mp's left, I suggest changing the nearest base production to a speeder crawler and popping the pod (so long as it's attacking from the seaward side, as any IOD's will make for the nearest land)

For the record, IoDs going for the landside doesn't always seem to be the case. Earlier in the ACDG, the SCC Invincible was attacked by an IoD popped from a pod, while I moved seawards, despite their being land nearby. The reason was probably because there was a Peacekeeper base nearby.

[Googlie]

Originally posted by Kassiopeia
The "Breakthroughs: 84 turns" part makes me feel a bit uneasy, being a Builder by nature and all, but since we're on "War mode" it's bearable... it's not like we actually do any research anyway!

Ah - that's from the simulator, which I haven't updated re the research rate for a couple of turns.

The actual situation is worse!!

[Maniac]

Originally posted by Googlie


Ah - that's from the simulator, which I haven't updated re the research rate for a couple of turns.

The actual situation is worse!!

[Kassiopeia]

NINETY-ONE?!

[Googlie]

Originally posted by Maniac
three elite hoplites & scout patrol could move out of VV to the eastern tip and board the SNC Mercury, waiting in (70.10). That way the transport will be back sooner in Arcadia University.

That'd leave Vlad with no garrison - RT2 won't get there for a couple of more turns

After capturing Otkrietia-Discovery we can rehome some troops.

Also, when the TwoNuts Base is founded we can home the Hermes to it as well as MT's travelling Hoplite. How about another Enterprise class cruiser next for MT? Or a crawler (the base will be producing 4 mins after the rehoming of the travelling Hoplite, so it'd have a crawler in 5 turns from founding, in time to work the mine being constructed)

I certainly agree that an Enterprise class cruiser would be good for Messena to start

We could:

Hurry Fort Buster crawler for 15 credits, if the base produces 15 mins after harvesting the rocky minerals mine.

Hurry SC1 Crypteia production with 1 mineral = 6 credits. Next year it will then have 10 minerals accumulated and it could be hurried further at a lower cost. This to speed up probe protection in Vladivostok.

Hurry OA crawler with 3 credits.

We’re swimming in credits. And due to the materials pod we now need less to upgrade crawlers and invest in the Citizen’s Defence Force. So if we wanted we could also hurry production in for example Argos, SC2 or SC3. Or do we want to save for future unit upgrades?

See my post in the Morgan covert ops thread - we may need some ec's to buy ClimRes from Zak - if he can be bullied into parting with (or selling) that as well as "giving us" MonStat

[Googlie]

Originally posted by Googlie
Or a crawler (Minas Tirith will be producing 4 mins after the rehoming of the travelling Hoplite, so it'd have a crawler in 5 turns from founding, in time to work the mine being constructed)

Or another speeder trance syntharmor crawler.

I just looked at the endturn and the Invincible is poised to pop another pod south of Gaialand

[Modo44]

Originally posted by Googlie
Yes - we'd move to a +1 Planet rating

That sounds very good. Even a few captred Worms would do great things to our cashflow.

[EDIT: I repeat the question: Is it allowed to farm the Fungus, and Worms, for cash? ]

[Maniac]

Originally posted by Googlie
That'd leave Vlad with no garrison - RT2 won't get there for a couple of more turns

Ah yes sorry. I meant the artifact and the three elite units.

[Maniac]

Originally posted by Googlie
Ah - that's from the simulator, which I haven't updated re the research rate for a couple of turns.

The actual situation is worse!!

Hmm, if I set labs production to 30%, I get one tech every 59 years. Are labs still at 20%?

Originally posted by Modo44
That sounds very good. Even a few captred Worms would do great things to our cashflow.

[EDIT: I repeat the question: Is it allowed to farm the Fungus, and Worms, for cash? ]

It is always possible to farm the fungus for worms, and kill them for cash.

With a positive Planet rating we can capture some worms. This doesn't give cash however.


Btw, should a majority be in favour of first settling near the Hive border after all, we could build a colony pod in Arcadia University and send that to the Manifold with a transport.

[Modo44]

Originally posted by Maniac
With a positive Planet rating we can capture some worms. This doesn't give cash however.

Oh, but it does, big time. I've done it in a few games, and it worked wonders. You see, normal units have very little movement on the Fungus, and they need to be built. It's costly, and slow, to get them farming for credits. A Worm has 3 movement points on Fungus, and you can get it for free, once your Planet rating is +1 or higher. You don't need to build it, and it has 3 times the chance to spawn another Worm, than a non-Elite unit. Once you get 2-3 Worms started, just keep them moving on Fungus, whenever they are healthy, and attack anything they find. As long as your Planet rating stays high, this is a cash perpetum mobile. Once you have too many Worms, just send them to war. The only thing I'm not certain about is the upkeep - we'd have too look into this. This is really, really powerful, that's why I asked if it isn't considered an exploit (the AI doesn't do it). Can add tens, then hundreds of credits per turn.

[Googlie]

Re: worms - the only thing trhat's forbidden by the rules is the fungus waypoint setting that generates a mindworm automatically at every waypoint stop. I don't know how many worms would be Independent and how many would be homed to Clim Res, but NE Arcadia as well as the Fungal Wall should be prime hunting grounds

Re: a colony pod from AU - I agree. It'd solve our hunger problem there as well. I say go for that immediately after Enterprise is launcheed, and keep the TwoNuts site as the Hermes focus this trip.

[Snoddasmannen]

Originally posted by Maniac
Btw, should a majority be in favour of first settling near the Hive border after all, we could build a colony pod in Arcadia University and send that to the Manifold with a transport.

I think it would be nice to get that +1 Planet asap, how much time would it take to build a cp, and which transport would we use?

Do we know if Lal or even Zak has any colony pods rumbling around which might steal that territory from us?

I really like the sound of that worm cash generator I've used that method myself from time to time, but mostly as a means to get an army of worms, never really thought of the cash it generated!

[Googlie]

Originally posted by Snoddasmannen
Do we know if Lal or even Zak has any colony pods rumbling around which might steal that territory from us?

see my opening post in this thread

[Googlie]

Originally posted by Googlie


see my opening post in this thread

And Lal has 2 pods, homed to the circled bases below, with the "X" marking our proposed base site

[Googlie]

WOW - and Lal is nothing if not aggressive re Zak.

His UN Temple of Sol pod is on route to 5:21 (just NW of the Sunny Mesa where Mendelev College is) while his High Commission pod is en-route to 87:7 - the northernmost tip of Arcadia (actually, just on the south shore of that little bay there)

(I didn't realize that with a pactmate you got route information)

So there is no downside to waiting until AU has completed a colony pod to send to the Nexus

[Snoddasmannen]

Originally posted by Googlie
So there is no downside to waiting until AU has completed a colony pod to send to the Nexus

I agree, that seems like a good bet to me Assuming we have transport available for it.

[Modo44]

In that case we can go and stop Yang's expansion first.

[Maniac]

Originally posted by Modo44
Oh, but it does, big time.

The only thing I'm not certain about is the upkeep - we'd have too look into this.

A nice feature about native life is that they don't cost any upkeep when they're on fungal tiles.

Originally posted by Snoddasmannen
I think it would be nice to get that +1 Planet asap, how much time would it take to build a cp, and which transport would we use?

With some hurrying over the next two years the CP could be ready MY 2156. (hurry 25c MY '54 and some 30c MY '55 I estimate)

Regarding what transports to use, AFAIK we don't have a plan regarding what to do with SNC Mercury and SNC Hermes after their current mission is fulfilled. So we can pick the transport we want I think. In fact, we'll have to invent something soon for the other transport to do.