Reply With QuoteSweet! I'll start looking through my sound links!
I'm going to have a go at making a graphically refurbished Test of Time version of Captain Nemo's great classic Red Front. I will NOT be changing the scenario text files (other than changes made for the purpose of conversion from FW to ToT), or renaming it, or sticking my name on the scenarioI do plan to create new 15-bit unit graphics and I'd like to use Catfish's superb ToT terrain for the summer terrain files, with his permission.
If anyone wants to help out with this then please sign up below. I'm looking for people to work on terrain, city, people and icon graphics (Curt?
Oh, and I'd like to get Nemo's approvalBit tricky that one, I know, as the guy gave up on civ years ago. If anyone knows how to contact him then please let me know.
Sweet! I'll start looking through my sound links!
I can begin looking over the City, People and Icon Graphics for conversion right away!
I think this would be a great chance to Russify the city interface and game icons!
I will delve into the Red Front MGE folder right now!
I wonder if any more of our regulars are into helping with any technical aspects?
At any rate, this will be a milestone for Civ2!
Excellent - thanks gents
Anyone else up for this?
Before I have a go at converting RF1.4 with the Scotto converter, has anyone already done this?
I converted Dictator-3 MGE to ToT with no problems.
But I have an issue with the rules, that may or may not be connected to the conversion...
There is no way to tell what kind of ToT scenario Scotto's convertor makes.
As you know; there are Original, Sci-Fi and Fantasy versions.
I am using Original rules made by Tech, but I have no way of
knowing if the actual Dictator-3 ToT scene file is OK with it or not.
In the words of Spike Milligan; "It is Einen Mystery!"
....
Agricola: I want if possible to stick with Nemo's original. I don't want to second-guess the man's thoughts on designing a scenario, and as has been seen with the host of very poor rip-offs of Exile's Imperialism 1870, I think a classic is best left untouched. Having said that, we're about to replace the graphics so who am I to say the text files shouldn't be changed on the basis of expert playtest comments from yourself.Fantastic idea. But which Red Front do you have in mind, Captain Nemo's RF 1.4 or RF 1.5, Colwyn's modification of the original?
Unfortunately, both scens have major loopholes and some serious shortcomings.
In RF 1.4, "Too many units" is a major problem. The event that creates 2 Partisans if a Red Army unit is killed allows a player, who takes maximum advantage of it, to finish world conquest in late 1942. Changing the T-34/76 slot in RULES to JS-2 at the beginning of Summer 1944 is a tremendous benefit to a player who has built a large number of cheap T-34's.
In RF 1.5, "Too many units" and the Partisan loophole have been fixed. The T-34/76 slot problem remains in the version I just downloaded from Spanish Civ Site.
The other problem with 1.5 is that the author strongly advocates that the Russians found new cities in Siberia, has positioned Labor Brigades to do so and suggests that this is necessary to win the scenario. I have tested this idea and found it 100% incorrect, expanding existing cities is much more efficient than hacking away at the Siberian bush. I had little trouble capturing Berlin in January '44.
What are people's thoughts here? I'm wary of messing with the scenario unless we get the unlikely approval of the Captain himself?
Originally posted by curtsibling
I converted Dictator-3 MGE to ToT with no problems.
But I have an issue with the rules, that may or may not be connected to the conversion...
There is no way to tell what kind of ToT scenario Scotto's convertor makes.
As you know; there are Original, Sci-Fi and Fantasy versions.
I am using Original rules made by Tech, but I have no way of
knowing if the actual Dictator-3 ToT scene file is OK with it or not.
In the words of Spike Milligan; "It is Einen Mystery!"
....This is worrying Curt. Did you follow Catfish's notes on tweaks that need to be made to the sceanrio post-conversion? I think they're posted on his site.
Well, given the improvements from Civ2 MGE to ToT I think it would be best to add a few things to the original. I think some of the events might need a look over, if only to see if something can be further realized.
If anything, I think that it is best to add, not really edit, Nemo's work. If an MGE event can be made more efficient by replacing it with a smaller ToT event, thereby freeing up event space while not changing playability, then I say do it.
Other respects, such as bugs, can be addressed, but I wouldn't go and change objectives. In other words, don't change the content of the story, just the book it's printed on.
The player in me wants to add and add to the game, but then again if we change it to drastically then it won't really be Nemo's Red Front anymore, now will it?
weird, I just thought of when Fairline were going to do his graphic update of Red Front and now I see this, excellent!
"Peace cannot be kept by force.
It can only be achieved by understanding"
I think a graphical upgrade and conversion to ToT do not require permission of the original author, as long as his authorship is acknowledges and any changes to the art are clearly labeled. I'm not so sure that other changes, eg. the events, are in the same category, however. Are they necessary?
I would be pleased to host this jewel on my site when it's done.
I have started a thread to outline my ToT rule problem...Originally posted by fairline
I hope it may just be a bug in my rules, and not the conversion.
Catfish, Tech or Merc will know for sure.
Meanwhile, I am off to Catfish's Cave (eek!) to see what wisdom awaits me there!
No problem.Originally posted by fairline
I do plan to create new 15-bit unit graphics and I'd like to use Catfish's superb ToT terrain for the summer terrain files, with his permission.
I think it should be OK without the permission of the original author providing it's a straight conversion with only technical modifications - to fix what is basically a flawed conversion process. Maybe you could include other changes in a Red Front modpack.Originally posted by fairline
What are people's thoughts here? I'm wary of messing with the scenario unless we get the unlikely approval of the Captain himself?
I converted RF nearly 2 years ago. The problem is that I've tampered with it since and didn't document the changes. Anyway, after reading the post in the other thread last night, I decided to reconvert it. The multiple files made it a large job and it took me a few hours.Originally posted by fairline
Before I have a go at converting RF1.4 with the Scotto converter, has anyone already done this?
The changes I've made are basically conversion fixes. However when faced with having to map the original sounds to units spread over 9 rules files, I thought, bugger that for a joke and ended up using the sounds and settings from my first conversion. As a result I believe there will be some difference in the sounds. If someone wants to rectify this then go for it.
Red Front 1.4 for Test of Time (1.07 MB)
Sound Files (1.83 MB)
There are no such guides on my site. They're all hidden away in various forum threads.Originally posted by fairline
This is worrying Curt. Did you follow Catfish's notes on tweaks that need to be made to the sceanrio post-conversion? I think they're posted on his site.
Not necessarily. I remember converting John Ellis' Bonaparte II scenario a long time ago. It crashed every time I opened the city @PRODUCTION box. The problem was definitely in the .scn file, but I never actually got around to nailing it. I'll take a look, anyway.Originally posted by curtsibling
I hope it may just be a bug in my rules, and not the conversion.
Catfish, Tech or Merc will know for sure.
Ha!Originally posted by curtsibling
Meanwhile, I am off to Catfish's Cave (eek!) to see what wisdom awaits me there!
Last edited by Catfish; December 18, 2007 at 04:53.
Nice work, Catfish - With the conversion, that's the first hurdle crossed!
I found the posts on ToT conversion problems at CFC.
I am now sure my rules problem lies within a preq loop, and not the actual conversion...
Time for a serious look at my text files...
I found that my scen works fine until I add the 'rules.txt' file in.Originally posted by Catfish
Not necessarily. I remember converting John Ellis' Bonaparte II scenario a long time ago. It crashed every time I opened the city @PRODUCTION box. The problem was definitely in the .scn file, but I never actually got around to nailing it. I'll take a look, anyway.
If you have the time or inclination, take a look at the rules zip file in the 'stamping out bugs' thread.
Your technical expertise would be much appreciated!
Well you can't deny your graphics are bladdy nice!Originally posted by Catfish
Ha!
Fantastic news!
I agree with you to try to stick with the original RF. But some minor changes (use of the advanced ToT event makro language to make previous events work better and use of ToT-only options, for example adding the invisible-flag to the Einsatz-Kommando) would definately be ok!
Great idea Fairline.
I thoroughly enjoyed your graphical update of John Ellis' Hellas scenario, it really gave the scenario a new lease of life - and that was only replacing MGE graphics. I'm looking forward to something special with Red Front ToT.
Thanks guys, it's good to see there is a potential audience here.
Catfish - that's another one I owe you, cheers
Right, on with the graphics redux!
Harry and Curt - shall we share stuff by e-mail, or do you want to post files here as and when they are finished? BTW, you both know how slow I am so this project will take some time to complete
I would take this view as well. I want to keep Nemo's scenario intact but give it some 15-bit graphical polish.Originally posted by Harry Tuttle
...The player in me wants to add and add to the game, but then again if we change it to drastically then it won't really be Nemo's Red Front anymore, now will it?
Perhaps there are some instances, such as the invisibility flag for the Einsatz-commando and partisans described by Dr K., which would warrant inclusion, but I'm opposed to events or rules changes. I take Agricola's points about the 'too many units' problem, although I don't recall that being a problem during my games with RF. I guess that just highlights my lack of skill in preserving units however
Thanks Tech, that's greatI would be pleased to host this jewel on my site when it's done.
@Fairline: I think just posting the files here would be easier. We could all see them at once, converse more easily, and it would allow for input from everyone else, especially if a possible problem arises in response to one of the ideas.
How open do you want this? There won't be to many surprises with the update I suppose.
Maybe we should put up a disclaimer that all of this is a work in progress so no one gets a weird idea as to the finished quality?
EDIT: Oh yeah, don't worry about taking your time. I need to finish up my latest and I'm sure Curt has plenty of projects to keep his mind busy.
I agree Harry - we'll post here if that's OK with Curt. I don't see any need for secrecy at all; I was thinking more of file size upload restrictions with 'Poly.
BTW - I still owe you some stuff for Gold Gultch. Can you remind me exactly what was needed (if it still is!). IIRC it was faction leaders (?)
Catfish: I've just read your ToT changes list; all that was well beyond the call of duty and I'm sure I'd have missed a lot of it had I converted RF myself. A big thanks for that, and we'll be sure to include this list of changes (and credits) in the final revision readme.
Yep, 5 white, anglo saxon saloon owners, pompous and rude as all get out.Originally posted by fairline
I agree Harry - we'll post here if that's OK with Curt. I don't see any need for secrecy at all; I was thinking more of file size upload restrictions with 'Poly.
BTW - I still owe you some stuff for Gold Gultch. Can you remind me exactly what was needed (if it still is!). IIRC it was faction leaders (?)
Red Front redux
I like the name already!
Skeptics should forego any thought of convincing the unconvinced that we hold the torch of truth illuminating the darkness. A more modest, realistic, and achievable goal is to encourage the idea that one may be mistaken. Doubt is humbling and constructive; it leads to rational thought in weighing alternatives and fully reexamining options, and it opens unlimited vistas.
Elie A. Shneour Skeptical Inquirer
Apparently so. I did a bit of searching with Web Crawler. Here are some of the "hits" from 2001 to 2003:Originally posted by Fairline
I take Agricola's points about the 'too many units' problem, although I don't recall that being a problem during my games with RF. I guess that just highlights my lack of skill in preserving units however . Has this been a problem for other people?
The problem arises almost solely during the fall of '41, and seems to depend on a player's strategy. I believe that preserving units has less to do with it than being aggressive and killing a lot of Wehrmacht units which each spawns 5 replacements.
When it happened to me, I was so totally p****d off at not getting the badly needed units which I had built, that I wiped out a bunch of low-grade, backwater German units in Germany and Poland to make room in the units table. My sense of frustration seems to be shared by some of the posters on the above threads.
I certainly understand and can't argue with your reluctance to change anything fundamental in the scen. It's just that you and others will be putting major work into upgrading the graphics and converting to TOT while three easily remedied, significant flaws remain in the scen.
Excerpts from the Manual of the Civilization Fanatic :
Money can buy happiness, just raise the luxury rate to 50%.
Money is not the root of all evil, it is the root of great empires.
What's your suggestion? I'm not to familiar with the spawn points, but are the German units spawning in useless areas?
It's not a very comprehensive list though. The list of fixes in Red Front is considerably larger (in the .zip file) and I suspect it'll grow if people start comparing the conversion to the original. For example, one thing I noticed last night is that there is no contact with other civs in the Foreign Minister screen. There is in the FW version.Originally posted by curtsibling
I found the posts on ToT conversion problems at CFC.
Actually I meant that I may not necessarily have the answers – but it reads both ways.Originally posted by curtsibling
I found that my scen works fine until I add the 'rules.txt' file in.
I guess I'm too late on the scene. Good you got it sorted.Originally posted by curtsibling
If you have the time or inclination, take a look at the rules zip file in the 'stamping out bugs' thread.
I expect lots of tanks and planes and stuff in return.Originally posted by fairline
Catfish - that's another one I owe you, cheers
Sorry, but it hasn't been touched since you asked me about it. Got to finish off the cities and fix some of the river connections. I'd better head back to the Cave.
If it's going to be done, then it might as well be done properly. I'm guessing that very few people would know about all of those CivConverter issues. A list of any changes should definitely be in the accompanying documentation. Anyway, if someone wants a straight conversion of RF (with the exception of some of the sounds), it's there. One thing I forgot to mention: you don't need to tamper with any of the sprites in the Original directory. All you need to do is deselect Animated Units in your Graphics Options. Simple. Interference from animated units would be negligible in any event.Originally posted by fairline
Catfish: I've just read your ToT changes list; all that was well beyond the call of duty and I'm sure I'd have missed a lot of it had I converted RF myself. A big thanks for that, and we'll be sure to include this list of changes (and credits) in the final revision readme.
BTW, in case you decide to change the icons for the units with hidden health bars, I've attached the source BMP files for the static sprites (for use with SpriteGen). Note that all but the required units have been removed to reduce the size of the output files.
I guess that could be the Red Front Redux Deluxe version.Originally posted by AGRICOLA
I certainly understand and can't argue with your reluctance to change anything fundamental in the scen. It's just that you and others will be putting major work into upgrading the graphics and converting to TOT while three easily remedied, significant flaws remain in the scen.
I...must...have...those...roads!!!
-rmsharpe
No, the German units are spawning where they will do the most good for the German advance. Nemo did a great job on selecting alternate spawn sites as the German advance moves east.Originally posted by Harry TuttleWhat's your suggestion? I'm not to familiar with the spawn points, but are the German units spawning in useless areas?
Most of the "Too many units" problem during the summer of '41 is caused by the event that spawns 5 infantry and armored units whenever a Wehrmacht is killed. The effect of this event is that, if the Germans lose 50 Wehrmacht, they actually have a net gain of 200 units.
I would suggest using the same approach as Colwyn uses in RF 1.5. He has reduced the number of initial German units by eliminating ~300 weak, rear echelon formations. His approach has the great advantage that it does not in any way weaken the strength of the German advance.
I think that the event (winter '41-'42) that creates 2 Partisans for every Red Army unit killed should be eliminated and replaced by an event that spawns no more than 1 Partisan per turn, somewhere in the Pripyat Marshes. A player who takes advantage of the present situation can easily have an army of 300+ Partisans behind German lines in May '42. This completely upsets the balance of the game and is sheer nonsense historically. Also, I doubt that Nemo envisaged a player building numerous cheap and useless Red Army units and getting them killed off as means of obtaining twice as many very useful units.
As for the unintended T-34/76 to JS-2 upgrade, it can be eliminated by using one of the extra unit slots in TOT for the JS-2 in the rules for summer '44, winter '44-'45 and summer '45.
@Catfish
Please don't get me started on what else needs fixing in RF 1.4 and 1.5 in order to achieve a "Red Front Redux Deluxe version". I'd bore everyone to tears.
Excerpts from the Manual of the Civilization Fanatic :
Money can buy happiness, just raise the luxury rate to 50%.
Money is not the root of all evil, it is the root of great empires.
I will soon start the debate over new graphics when I get back home from class tonight, my dear gentlemen
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