IIRC most of the children killed during the 9/11 attacks were in the airplanes.Originally posted by Kidicious
There were day care centers in the towers, but I see your point. I'm really pissed about this too, and I'm not Russian.
Getting back to the subject, the people of this region already have had experience with the kind of state that the Chechen rebels want to form. Back in '99 they had an autonomous government that was Taliban style and which invaded neighboring regions. Independence is out of the question.
"I say shoot'em all and let God sort it out in the end!
IIRC most of the children killed during the 9/11 attacks were in the airplanes.Originally posted by Kidicious
There were day care centers in the towers, but I see your point. I'm really pissed about this too, and I'm not Russian.
"I say shoot'em all and let God sort it out in the end!
I don't know... Russia has such complex politics. I am not sure if everyone is going to rally to war.Originally posted by Lancer
I was damn mad on 9-11. However, they hadn't gone after a school with hundreds of little children. Think again, can you imagine? If I'm a 46 year old Russian, I'm lining up at the army recruiting, demanding an AK47 and a unit.
We need to start putting some seriously funky pressure on the world Muslim community in order to encourage them to put pressure on militant Muslims where ever they're found. The man in the Casbah has to start thinking that this is his war too or the radicals are going to get him into some serious trouble.Originally posted by Lancer
So, aside from us getting on a plane for Russia, forming up into some funky squad of west coast flakes... My only point is that Russia is about to go to war, whether they know it or not, their people will give them no choice. When they do, if they go about it as Russians always do, well I'll support them as what they are giving is better than what they got, and better than their enemies deserve.
Our enemies...
"I say shoot'em all and let God sort it out in the end!
Which IS working, bombings have not been a problem until this week, when the bus bomb exploded.Which won't work. There are plenty more where they came from.
Once again, Doc speaks wisdom.Originally posted by Dr Strangelove
We need to start putting some seriously funky pressure on the world Muslim community in order to encourage them to put pressure on militant Muslims where ever they're found. The man in the Casbah has to start thinking that this is his war too or the radicals are going to get him into some serious trouble.
They need to start taking care of their own. This works wonders, as witnessed recently when Sistani told Sadr to cut out the nonsense.
As long as sympathizers who aren't actually involved in the terrorist acts turn a blind eye, they are just making things worse for themselves.
So freedom of the press is a good thing only when you agree with it?Originally posted by Agathon
Yes, the anti-Chavez Venezuelan press can't accept the result. We all know that.
The "Chechen situation" has been going on ... IIRC since the 13th century when Islam became dominant in the area much to the annoyance of the Muscovite Principalities.
It started about the same time as the "Irish problem". Amnesty International has found a huge number of abuses by the Russian government and military in the Chechen area. Prior to 9/11, the US and EU regularly criticized Moscow for detaining, torturing and killing civilians in Chechnya. Currently, since the Kremlin is part of the War on Terror, they have been given carte blanc to do what the will with pro-independence Chechens - after all, they are all terrorists by the new criteria.
Russians were also given minimal info over the state controlled media of the event - Putin has been portrayed as a great hero. I wouldn't be surprised if the Kremlin staged the whole thing in Beslan.
What happened was appalling. If it had happened in Europe or North America, I wouldn't be surprised if the death toll had been minimal - but the Russians are that poorly trained and organized. But I don't think the west should support a genocidal war against the Chechens.
I also think the west should take a serious look at other leaders in the War on Terror - specifically Pakistan, Turkmenistan and Uzbeckistan. There strongmen have also been given free reign by the west to eliminate any opponents by branding them terrorists.
There's nothing wrong with the dream, my friend, the problem lies with the dreamer.
Originally posted by Uncle Sparky I wouldn't be surprised if the Kremlin staged the whole thing in Beslan.Right, and Bush staged 9-11 so people would forget about the struggling economy for a little bit.
... you compared Dubbya to Putin,... not me !Originally posted by vovan
I agree it would be despicable, but would you put it past Putin ? Besides, the Kremlin has near absolute control of the Russian media; I suspect they will spin this into horrible reprisals.
There's nothing wrong with the dream, my friend, the problem lies with the dreamer.
What genocidal war? Similar to what the Arabs are doing to the black Africans in the Sudan?
http://tools.wikimedia.de/~gmaxwell/jorbis/JOrbisPlayer.php?path=John+Williams+The+Imperial+M arch+from+The+Empire+Strikes+Back.ogg&wiki=en
I would put it past any civilized person in their right mind. And Putin, if anything, is definitely in his right mind. So are the Chechens, problem is, they aren't civilized. Not in the Western sense of the word any way. Consider this: what did the terrorists want? They demanded Russian troops to leave Chechnia. To arrange that, they demanded for the president of Osetia (the republic where Beslan is located), and the president of Chechnia to be present at the negotiations. The former (together with Putin) was on site promptly. The Chechen president? He said **** it, and stayed put. Oh well, guess they don't want the troops out that much.Originally posted by Uncle Sparky
I agree it would be despicable, but would you put it past Putin ?
Similar to what the Arabs militias, backed by the US supported Sudanese government have been doing since the 1970's ? Similar, yes. In Sudan, there is limited viable land and there has always been a black/Arab conflict, especially in times of drought. Putin is trying to reestablish an imperial Russia, and squashing descent is important to control. In 1991, about the same time as Bylorus, Latvia etc. were breaking away from the solviet empire, Chechnya peacefully declared independence. Some elements within the population, probably well under 1%, have now resorted to terrorism.Originally posted by Ned
What genocidal war? Similar to what the Arabs are doing to the black Africans in the Sudan?
So, are some of you advocating a Simon de Montfort solution - "Kill them all - God will know His own?" If there is such a thing as an innocent Chechen, maybe they should be killed just in case ?
There's nothing wrong with the dream, my friend, the problem lies with the dreamer.
No they didn't. The opposition had their own "exit polls". This was illegally reported in the Independent while the referendum was ongoing.All exit polls carried out on the day had given the opposition an advantage of between 12 percent and 19 percent.
This prat refers to "evidence" which isn't forthcoming. I searched recent news stories and there is nothing about this - it's a non starter by a bitter bunch of ****** who can't accept that their time of lording it over the majority of Venezuelans is at an end.
If they try any of their violent fascist **** again, I'll support Chavez if he has them all expelled from the country. These people are anti-democratic scum.
Who are you going to believe? The people who mounted a military coup against the democratically elected government, and then tried to bring the economy to its knees to force a result? The people who use their media outlets to spread lies about Chavez and publicly call him a nigger? I've seen irrefutable evidence of the crap they spew.
Or Chavez, who has been pretty scrupulous about democracy? He hasn't banned the opposition media, despite their 24/7 campaign of hate and lies about him.
Chavez isn't much of a communist by the way, he's more of a Social Democrat/New Dealer. But why let that get in the way of subverting democracy.
Only feebs vote.
Oh really?Originally posted by Uncle Sparky
The "Chechen situation" has been going on ... IIRC since the 13th century when Islam became dominant in the area much to the annoyance of the Muscovite Principalities.
I see you're an expert. 13th century, my ass. In 13th century Moscow didn't care a thing about spread of Islam in Cucasus, I doubt they a care a thing thing about Cucasus at all. They were more worried about Mongol's invasion.
Listen smartass, I've spent my entire life in Russia. I was born in USSR. I remember when its collapsed. I remeber what Chechens did prior first war. What they did was genocide of non-Chechen population of Chechnya. To your knowledge Chechnya have been populated by non-Chechens too before early 90's when most of them were killed or were lucky enough to run away from thier homes. All cities in Chechnya were build by Russians who came there 200 years ago. Their capital tooks its name from Russian fortress Groznaya. You know nothing about Chechens, their history, mentality and traditions. You have no idea why Russians came there at the first place in 19th century, you have no idea, what happened there in 90's of the 20th century. You have no idea what happened there after first war when they gained independence from Russia and created Taliban-type state in 1996, you have no idea why Russians came there again 1999, you have no idea what's going on there now, all what you know- Russians are always wrong, because they're f*ckers and everyone who kill Russians are heroes.It started about the same time as the "Irish problem". Amnesty International has found a huge number of abuses by the Russian government and military in the Chechen area. Prior to 9/11, the US and EU regularly criticized Moscow for detaining, torturing and killing civilians in Chechnya. Currently, since the Kremlin is part of the War on Terror, they have been given carte blanc to do what the will with pro-independence Chechens - after all, they are all terrorists by the new criteria.
Russians were also given minimal info over the state controlled media of the event - Putin has been portrayed as a great hero. I wouldn't be surprised if the Kremlin staged the whole thing in Beslan.
You mean in Europe and North America bomb explodes differently? It's Russian climate what make explosives more lethal?What happened was appalling. If it had happened in Europe or North America, I wouldn't be surprised if the death toll had been minimal -
IIRC, some years ago few crazy teenagers turn thier school into blood bath and FBI and police could't do a thing about it. In Beslan operated 30 proffessional killers with heavy armamenets and explosives, who came there with only one goal- to kill everyone and who spend hell knows how many time to prepare this operation. Despite explosion Russians saved more than 70% of hostages.
I believe a unit of poorly trained and organized Russian stroibat would be enough to conquer Canada.but the Russians are that poorly trained and organized.
Who cares about what you or your presidents, queens, whatever think?But I don't think the west should support a genocidal war against the Chechens.
I also think the west should take a serious look at other leaders in the War on Terror - specifically Pakistan, Turkmenistan and Uzbeckistan. There strongmen have also been given free reign by the west to eliminate any opponents by branding them terrorists.
We were attacked and we will win this war alone, since you, the west, are on terrorist's side. So put your enlighted western thoughts into enlighted western ass.
This is from the only non-partisan news site in Venezuela. It provides some perspective.
http://www.vheadline.com/readnews.asp?id=22654
Only feebs vote.
What happens in Chechnya is akin to genocide indeed. As for Putin being in his right mind, a former high level KGB executive is certainly not above arranging things to get the opinion on his side.
Russia has attacked Chechnya into becoming desperate. They deserve what they get. It's better to have a Taliban-like state than a lot of ruins and corpses lying around. Comparing the handling of Chechnya and Iraq is certainly not in favor of Russia. Even if Chechns didn't give much liberty to their people, at least they kept them alive, and I'm not sure they were more corrupt than the Russians.
That's about all I can say from what info I've got. So if we don't know, please explain us and enlighten us.
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web site http://clash.apolyton.net/frame/index.shtml and forum here on apolyton)
Peacefully, my ass.Originally posted by Uncle Sparky
Similar to what the Arabs militias, backed by the US supported Sudanese government have been doing since the 1970's ? Similar, yes. In Sudan, there is limited viable land and there has always been a black/Arab conflict, especially in times of drought. Putin is trying to reestablish an imperial Russia, and squashing descent is important to control. In 1991, about the same time as Bylorus, Latvia etc. were breaking away from the solviet empire, Chechnya peacefully declared independence.
So, are some of you advocating a Simon de Montfort solution - "Kill them all - God will know His own?" If there is such a thing as an innocent Chechen, maybe they should be killed just in case ?
There were real blood bath.
Whatever, why should I enlighten you about genocide of non-Chechens there. You are blind. Anyone who thinks that "Some elements within the population, probably well under 1%, have now resorted to terrorism" knows nothing about situation in Chechnya.
You say- Putin control the media, I say- you are absolutely brainwashed by your "free" media. What the **** else should happen before you'll yunderstand that those people are terrorists, that they have their own sepcific morale which allows them to kill children (surelly you don't know, but it's in their traditions to be brutal and show no mercy, even to children and woman). Surelly you never heard about non-Chechens and non-Muslims burned alive on streets of Grozny when they "peacefully declared independence" and when they had thier Taliban state in 1996-1999.
You- the west are hopeless, you governments, (for their own reason, which is- we don't need strong Russia) show you what them want you to see and you beieve you are free and knew everything, but in fact you know NOTHING.
And don't bother to reply, I already knew what you'll say-nj, no, no, it's Russian propaganda. They are nice people who'll never do any harm to a child.
Last edited by Serb; September 5, 2004 at 04:01.
and your source is? www.somenewsh!tforbrainwashedmorons.com?Originally posted by LDiCesare
What happens in Chechnya is akin to genocide indeed. As for Putin being in his right mind, a former high level KGB executive is certainly not above arranging things to get the opinion on his side.
Russia has attacked Chechnya into becoming desperate. They deserve what they get. I It's better to have a Taliban-like state than a lot of ruins and corpses lying around. Comparing the handling of Chechnya and Iraq is certainly not in favor of Russia. Even if Chechns didn't give much liberty to their people, at least they kept them alive, and I'm not sure they were more corrupt than the Russians.
That's about all I can say from what info I've got. So if we don't know, please explain us and enlighten us.
You are hopless ****ers.
Burn in hell for what you've said.
First - I do not support anyone killing innocent civilians. I have never said I did.
Second - You are correct - by the end of the first millennia of the Christian era, the Muscovite Principalities (specifically Kiev) had defeated the Khazarian Khanate, which included the Chechen region. By the early 13th century CE the "Golden Horde" was indeed the common foe in the region. Grozny was in deed built by the Solviet Russians as were many other cities across the USSR to foster Russification. With the fall of totalitarian communism, death & dislocation took place in Chechnia, as it did in many areas where historical ethnic animosities remained.
Third - You (serb) have clearly illustrated what I said - either both sides have to stop the "they are all evil - kill them all" mentality or this will continue.
Would you feel better if the pictures were of Chechen children being carried out of a burning school ? I hope not or genocide might be the only solution.
There's nothing wrong with the dream, my friend, the problem lies with the dreamer.
it's Russian propaganda. They are nice people who'll never do any harm to a child.
Only feebs vote.
Damn it Aghaton, get your act together! You justed to have something to add to the debate, but nowadays it's just childish remarks.Originally posted by Agathon
Maybe if Putin hadn't rigged the Chechen elections, things wouldn't be so bad.
The terrorists seems to have been planning this for a year, it hardly a spotanious reaction to the recent election.
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." - Schopenhauer
In GAIS we trust!
I'm 27 years old and last time I cried when I was a kid, but last days I feel absolutelly shoked and nearly cried when saw those kids. You seems to do not understad- most of those kids were Ossetins, some were Russian kids, some were Ingush kids and some were Chechen kids, since all those nationalities live in North Ossetia. For me they were just kids, regardles of their nationality. Had terrorists wanted to kill only Russian kids, they would go anywhere deeper into Russian territory. Those f*ckers just wanted to kill kids to start blood bath on the Caucasus.Originally posted by Uncle Sparky
First - I do not support anyone killing innocent civilians. I have never said I did.
Second - You are correct - by the end of the first millennia of the Christian era, the Muscovite Principalities (specifically Kiev) had defeated the Khazarian Khanate, which included the Chechen region. By the early 13th century CE the "Golden Horde" was indeed the common foe in the region. Grozny was in deed built by the Solviet Russians as were many other cities across the USSR to foster Russification. With the fall of totalitarian communism, death & dislocation took place in Chechnia, as it did in many areas where historical ethnic animosities remained.
Third - You (serb) have clearly illustrated what I said - either both sides have to stop the "they are all evil - kill them all" mentality or this will continue.
Would you feel better if the pictures were of Chechen children being carried out of a burning school ? I hope not or genocide might be the only solution.
Yes, those kids certainly deserved what they gotOriginally posted by LDiCesare
They deserve what they get.
The enemy cannot push a button if you disable his hand.
A comparison of this thread to regular ME threads is soo interesting...
I was talking about war. Don't tell me that Russians didn't cause any child to die. Now I apologize as what I said is far too harsh. Terrorism is bad, but the fact is that the west doesn't understand the war waged by Russia against Chechens. Serb's refusal to explain doesn't help. You know and could explain, but don't. You say they are terrorists, sure they are. But why did they become such? It looks like their country is invaded and they are defending themselves in a desperate way. If their economy is wrecked and most of them are being killed, it's understandable that they retaliate.
I ment to say: If you do not explain why this war is waged, then it looks like that you are invading an independant nation for no good reason. As you point out, media are biased and don't give much info about the Russian point of view. Explain us instead of insulting. Otherwise you look like racists committing a genocide, if it's an all out war on both sides, and that includes killing children, and yes that's bad and horrible, and in such a case you'd deserve what you get (should have put the conditional in the first place):
.(http://hrw.org/wr2k4/7.htm#_Toc58744956) No children there?Five months of indiscriminate bombing and shelling in 1999 and early 2000 resulted in thousands of civilian deaths.
So please explain the situation so we can undesrtand what Russia is trying to accomplish in this place. I never heard of rebuilding for instance or helping the economy
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Retaliate against whom? Russians? Then their aim is way off...
http://www.apolyton.com/forums/showt...4&pagenumber=4Putin was in Beslan yestarday and ordered to close all borders of North Ossetia and to start search of d!cks who helped terrorists in preparation of this act. Also he said that main goal of this act was "to explode the Caucasus" and everyone who will fall into this provocation will be considered as terrorist's sympotyzer.
I've to explain what he meant. The peoples of Cucasus maintain a very long traditions of blood revenge or vindetta. In such cases they act in accordance with "an eye for an eye" principle. In accordance with thier traditions, relatives of the dead children should take arms and did with murders or their families the same thing what they did with thier families- kill.
As for me, it's absolutely clear that terrorists didn't plan to achieve any political goal by act. They've planned to kill their victims from the beggining. In 2002, in Moscow's theater the situation was absolutely different. First of all they demanded access to TV air, and made a clear (but still impossible) demands. They've forced relatives of the hostages to make an anti-war demostration. They were negotiating, I don't remeber exact number, but I believe about 100 hostages were released after negotiations. They allowed food, water and medicine, which means they planned to stay with the hostages for a long time. And more probably they planned to escape the theather and Moscow via buses using hostages as alive shields (like it happened before), since all of them, except their leader were in masks to hide their faces, which means that they really did want to die there.
Non of that happened this time. This time they didn't make clear demands, no TV, no serious attempts of negotiations, only one person they demanded for talks, had entered the building. Former hostages said that they didn't hide their faces and told them that everyone including themselves will die there.
As for me, they planned to kill the children, becuase relatives of the children will came to Chechnya to kill Chechens, Chechens in their turn will came to Ossetia to kill Ossetins and so on. Their plan was to start the circle of violence.
They targeted Chechens.
"We have tried spending money. We are spending more than we have ever spent before and it does not work...After eight years of this Administration, we have just as much unemployment as when we started... And an enormous debt to boot!" — Henry Morgenthau, Franklin Delano Roosevelt's Treasury secretary, 1941.
Sure they did, but not only Chechen, but all peoples of Caucasus. Terrorists need "hot zones", they need constant war. War feeds them. They can't exist without war, ethnic tensions, they simply need violence to fulfill their goals. In Chechnya things were slowly, step by step but get back to normal. Local institutions were restored, Chechens themselves maintain order there, had their own police, elect their representatives to Russian pariliament and senate, elect their own leadership, apporoved new constitution of the republic. This is unacceptable for religious extremists worldwide. They need a constant war on Caucasus. That's why they did it.
I agree with this. A pity they did it, both for the children and for the Chechen cause. However if I was fighting, I'd still be fighting on the Chechen side. Give them independance and this all stops right here.Originally posted by Albert Speer
don't yall hate extremists? the Chechens were in the right this whole time. They were being oppressed by the Russians when they should have been given their independence with the collapse of the USSR. The russians were doing them very wrong.
unfortunately, the Chechen extremists just burned all their bridges with this one. The hostage situation in that theater a year ago was bad enough but this? what good for the Chechens could possibly come out of this? are they just being fatalistic?
Smile
For though he was master of the world, he was not quite sure what to do next
But he would think of something
"Hm. I suppose I should get my waffle a santa hat." - Kuciwalker
Give them independence? Would we give someone who went into a school and killed as many children as they could freedom in our own countries? No. We kill them or put them in prison.
We must be concerned not merely about who murdered them, but about the system, the way of life, the philosophy which produced these murderers. - Martin Luther King Jr. Eulogy for the Martyred Children (1963)
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