New Tech ideas

[orrery]

I was considering technologies for a Civilizations IV that would make sense and might seriously be considered.

So, here is my list, let me know if you have any reason why these techs shouldn't be included in Civ IV

Techs:
Carpentry
Grid Computing

Governments:
Federalist

Small Wonders:
Internet
Hubble Space Telescope

Try to keep your list small, and nothing too fancy or futuristic.

[orrery]

I'd like to develop these a bit more and I'm currently operating on a whim:

1.) Carpentry would be the predecessor for the coastal boats instead of the alphabet.

Carpentry + Mathematics = catapult

2.) Grid Computing would follow from the Computer tech and would be a requirement for the SETI and Cure for Cancer projects. Grid Computing would be a requirement for Genetic Engineering. Genetic Engineering would give Cure for Cancer or Human Genome Project.

3.) After Democracy there will be a small wonder called "The Constitution" that you would have to build. By building The Constitution a new form of Government becomes available, and that is Federalism. Federalism has a lot of advantages, increased worker productivity, less corruption, etc. The disadvatage is that you have to transistion to democracy before you can build the Constitution, and once you build the Constitution you have to go through a transistion to Federalism. If you make this transistion however, it becomes well worth it.

4.) Add Internet as small wonder, this was done in versions of Civ II and should be transported to Civ IV.

5.) Hubble Space Telescope should be a precursor to developing Spaceship and available after Space Flight tech is discovered.

I'd love to hear all of your thoughts and what I could personally do to implement these changes.

[Panag]

hi ,

the hubble should be a great wonder , not a small , ....

as far as the net making it a small wonder , nope , it should be a great wonder also , ...

well the techs are worth loking into , but in all about 20 to 30 new techs should be put in

nice tech ideas btw

have a nice day

[lajzar]

Umm, Federalism has been a government type since teh middle ages. Ask the Swiss. Ask for it being a souped-up Democracy, the jury is still out on that one. I'm not convinced that the factors that go towards making the USA more effective cannot be explained by sheer size alone, and forgive me when I say it seems a bit too blatant what your model for Federalism is.

Ask for Grid Computing, is that anything like Network Computing? Let's call these by their more common name eh?

[Odin]

Federalism could have communal corruption as fits it's decentralized nature. Good for large empires that are at peace.

BTW, The government should be called Federal Republic

[Sandman]

Way too Americanised. Sorry, but the lategame is already too American as it is.

[Odin]

Originally posted by Sandman
Way too Americanised. Sorry, but the lategame is already too American as it is.

Excuse me,

Canada, Russia, Mexico, and Germany are federal republics. just because the US made it popular doesn't mean it is "too american.' That is just like saying democracy is "too American." Peacemongers with large empires need an alternative to communism, which is for warmongers with large empires (like Russia ).

[Sandman]

I was more objecting to the 'Hubble Space Telescope' and 'The Constitution' wonders. And especially the idea that federal democracies are a lot better than centralised ones.

The 'need' for a communal corruption democracy is more a problem with the corruption system than anything else.

[Mad Bomber]

Originally posted by Odin


Excuse me,

Canada, Russia, Mexico, and Germany are federal republics. just because the US made it popular doesn't mean it is "too american.' That is just like saying democracy is "too American." Peacemongers with large empires need an alternative to communism, which is for warmongers with large empires (like Russia ).

1)I am pretty sure that most of these are Parlimentarian Republics as opposed to a Federal Republic (like in the US) and both are different styles of represenative democracy which are included in the Democracy government. We shouldn't reinvent the wheel just to make a cosmetic change to a game.

2) I like the addition of carpentry to the tech tree.

3) The Internet is already in C3C, Hubble isn't really unique enough for a wonder status. I do like having the Constitution as a small Wonder (with a few others; Code of Hammurabi, Codex of Justinian, the Magna Carta, ect.)

4) Grid Computing seems too close to the tech of Computers. How about Mass Media being a tech? Hollywood a small wonder? A symphony, Museum, theater, Cinema, Town Newspaper as city improvements?

[lajzar]

Originally posted by Mad Bomber

Canada, Russia, Mexico, and Germany are federal republics. just because the US made it popular doesn't mean it is "too american.' That is just like saying democracy is "too American."

1)I am pretty sure that most of these are Parlimentarian Republics as opposed to a Federal Republic (like in the US) and both are different styles of represenative democracy which are included in the Democracy government. We shouldn't reinvent the wheel just to make a cosmetic change to a game.

Not forgetting the original Federal Republic, Switzerland. Proof that this government style has nothing to do with large geographical sizes. Given the proposed examples (Russia? Mexico?) it isn't even necessarily any more efficient than a regular vanilla "democracy".

2) I like the addition of carpentry to the tech tree.

3) The Internet is already in C3C, Hubble isn't really unique enough for a wonder status. I do like having the Constitution as a small Wonder (with a few others; Code of Hammurabi, Codex of Justinian, the Magna Carta, ect.)

4) Grid Computing seems too close to the tech of Computers. How about Mass Media being a tech? Hollywood a small wonder? A symphony, Museum, theater, Cinema, Town Newspaper as city improvements?

I'd have computers as being the basic calculating device, and Networking as being the tech that allows computers to connect, increasing their potential power dramatically.

A modern world without Networking tech would be similar to Asimov's world where there are five (yes, FIVE!) computers in the world, each running stuff for an entire continent. Read "The Evitable Conflict" for details.

[Addled Platypus]

future tech
ion drives
rail guns
solar sails
space shuttle !!!

to name but a few

[orrery]

Americans are going to be the majority of people buying the game. As an American, I would like to see Civ IV succeed and I think it can best do that by expanding what it has to offer to its customers. I believe a Federalist government would be a good addition to the game, I do not see any reason why it should be excluded. After reading the Federalist Papers, I definitely feel that the makers of Civ should consider adding Federalism to its list of government types.

Hollywood would be a good addition to the wonders and its likely advantage would be to provide entertainment to your entire civilization and keeping the people happy.

So, after your responses, I'll concede Grid Computing. But, I'll have to protest about Hubble not being unique as suggested by Mad Bomber. That leaves me with:

1. Carpentry (tech)
2. Federalist (govt)

I'd also like to hear your comments on another suggestion that I've recently come up with:

3. The X-Prize Cup (small wonder)

[lajzar]

I can't see any reason why it should be excluded per se, but unlike you, I don't see it as being necessarily superior to a plain vanilla emocracy either. Consider the nations that have this government:

India
USA
Brazil
Russia
Germany
Switzerland
Mexico

That list isn't really demonstrating a profile of countries with superior economic performance. If you can list what those governments have in common that is distinct from other democracies, I am all ears.

If, however, as I suspect, you simply want a unique government to pander to the US game-buying market, I'm not so interested.

I'd agree with you on having Hubble as a wonder though. As the only space based telescope in existance, I'd say it is pretty unique.

Perhaps it could be a wonder, and with a later tech, an almost equivalent small wonder becomes available? That might be a general addition for most wonders too.

[orrery]

So I guess everyone is onboard for carpentry then?

[Mad Bomber]

Originally posted by lajzar

I'd agree with you on having Hubble as a wonder though. As the only space based telescope in existance, I'd say it is pretty unique.

Perhaps it could be a wonder, and with a later tech, an almost equivalent small wonder becomes available? That might be a general addition for most wonders too.

A replacement for Hubble is already in its final stages of development. It could be deployed as soon as 2007, making Hubble obsolete overnight. Hubble is scheduled for destruction in 2012 unless an effort to save Hubble succeeds. Since Hubble would have only been relevant for approx ten years of its life, IMO it would not be unique enough for wonder status.

[lajzar]

Carpentry - sounds cool.

Hubble - didn't realise it was due to become obsolete so soon. We might want to step back and ask ourselves how unique and long lasting some of our current modern great wonders are.

Hollywood for example. Not to knock it, but the Indian movie industry (aka Bollywood) actually has a bigger turnover, finance-wise. And Hong Kong isn't too far behind either.

Hoover Dam - China is currently doing a project equally as impressive. And if flooding is implemented, this wonder should increase the chance of that happening.

SETI - the original programme has already been scrapped due to lack of political interest.

Contraception (from ctp2) - oh please. These are meant to be wonders of the world.

[orrery]

So, The "X-Prize Cup" as a small wonder sound good to anyone else? With Burt Rutan's SpaceShipOne about to make its date with destiny in a few days, I feel it would be a good addition as a pre-cursor to a space driven development.

I suggested the Hubble (or perhaps the terrestrial planet finder) to be a precursor to building the spaceship. You need to know where a good planet is before you send a colony there.

I have no problem with making the game more Americanized. The world could use a bit more genuine Americanization in my opinion. Perhaps it could inspire someone to read The Federalist Papers who had otherwise not done so.

[orrery]

lazjar, I'm not amused with your continuing attempts to knock US achievements. Hollywood has had far more greater impact on the world than Bollywood. The world could always do with a little more of what makes the US the shining beacon of freedom in the world.

[lajzar]

Originally posted by orrery
The world could use a bit more genuine Americanization in my opinion.

This thread is getting too political for my tastes. As you have just turned it into a potential flamewar, I will not continue any discussion on this thread.

[orrery]

thank you. The Americans have had many great achievements and is not nearly represented enough in the current game. If we want to go the route of something becoming common causes it to cease being a wonder, then we would have to get rid of all the ancient wonders. For instance, Hubble was a 'groundbreaking' achievement. If we were to use the standard of something becoming obsolete you'd have to get rid of every wonder, the great library for instance, why not a Library of Congress in the modern age? The dam in China? Great, but not groundbreaking achievement that the Hoover Dam was. Wonders help make spin-offs possible as others hope to mimic their success.

I consider Federalism to be a great idea made popular by the founding fathers, whose intense study of history gave switzerland something to be proud of. That fact however has little to do with my suggesting it, I figured that the game could benefit by having more forms of government, and lo and behold, federalism is a popular form of government that the game could benefit from having. With computers becoming more advanced, I see no reason why the game should not be able to integrate further details. Also, with the United States as dominant as it is in today's world, I feel that such additions could help the world understand those things which make the United States the greatest Union on earth. Besides, federalism as a form of government would help people take a more educated look at how their government operates.

In the rush to incorporate more Civs into the game, the Americans in Civ III I felt were neglected. The Americans are given very few in terms of special units. I'd like to see minutemen, for instance, instead of musketeers. We could come up with a few more.

[orrery]

I'd still be interested in your opinion on including "The X-Prize Cup" now that SpaceShipOne is about to make its groundbreaking launch.

[Mad Bomber]

Originally posted by orrery
thank you. The Americans have had many great achievements and is not nearly represented enough in the current game. If we want to go the route of something becoming common causes it to cease being a wonder, then we would have to get rid of all the ancient wonders. For instance, Hubble was a 'groundbreaking' achievement. If we were to use the standard of something becoming obsolete you'd have to get rid of every wonder, the great library for instance, why not a Library of Congress in the modern age? The dam in China? Great, but not groundbreaking achievement that the Hoover Dam was. Wonders help make spin-offs possible as others hope to mimic their success.

I consider Federalism to be a great idea made popular by the founding fathers, whose intense study of history gave switzerland something to be proud of. That fact however has little to do with my suggesting it, I figured that the game could benefit by having more forms of government, and lo and behold, federalism is a popular form of government that the game could benefit from having. With computers becoming more advanced, I see no reason why the game should not be able to integrate further details. Also, with the United States as dominant as it is in today's world, I feel that such additions could help the world understand those things which make the United States the greatest Union on earth. Besides, federalism as a form of government would help people take a more educated look at how their government operates.

In the rush to incorporate more Civs into the game, the Americans in Civ III I felt were neglected. The Americans are given very few in terms of special units. I'd like to see minutemen, for instance, instead of musketeers. We could come up with a few more.

Americans neglected? Look at the modern age, every wonder is located in America.

America is not quite as dominant in the world as you may believe. We lag the world in educating our children, in providing health care to our citizens, and in protecting our natural resources. America also maintains a massive debt and a colossal trade imbalance, and it allows its own citizens to steal the wealth of our country right in front of our nose. America may be a military and cultural world power today, but the foundation that has built this, is slowly and quietly eroding.

Federalism is a style of govenment, not a type of government and even though I am a U. S. citizen; I prefer the Parlimentarian style over the Federal style as it is a more inclusive style of representative government.

[Addled Platypus]

I have no problem with making the game more Americanized

... from orrery

I'm not amused with your continuing attempts to knock US achievements ... from orrery (where is this?)

Just when I thought I heard a load of ....

Make a mod and enjoy it on your time

Nothing like see thru the eyes of another(lajzar), to help one think outside the box

Can't we all get along

[Plotinus]

I have not the faintest idea what "the X-Prize Cup" is and I agree with Mad Bomber that the US is less globally dominant than most Americans seem to think. For example, much of America's economic punch comes from the fact that it has borrowed so much money from the rest of the world (the US owes the UN more than anyone else does, for example). It's not necessarily because the US has a more fundamentally strong economy. Similarly, it is true that on many counts Bollywood is more important than Hollywood. For one thing, there are far more people in India than there are in America, and cinema-going is one of the most popular entertainments there. For another, Bollywood films are hugely popular elsewhere too. There are pleny of Bollywood-dominated video shops in London, where I live. Hrithik Roshan is probably idolised by many more people in the world than Brad Pitt is.

We are all entitled to our opinions and I think that orrery was quite unnecessarily rude to lajzar who was not wilfully offensive to America, simply trying to retain some balance (in what is already a very Euro-Americo-centric game - after all, if the US is a civilisation, why isn't Brazil?). This isn't the place to advocate celebrating the "shining beacon of freedom" that America apparently is, although if this alleged beacon includes things like the hostage-taking of national politics by big business and Guantanamo Bay, then it might not be a good idea to start such a debate.

[lord of the mark]

point of facts

1. Federalism is compatible with Parliamentary govt. Canada, Germany, Australia all have federal forms, yet parliamentary govt at the national (and state/province level). The opposite of Federalism would be centralization, not Parliamentarism

2. Are there any democracies that are large in area that are NOT federal?

3. Budge deficits contribute to a larger economy only in the short run. US general economic achievements are not driven by deficits, problem though they may be.

[orrery]

Originally posted by Plotinus
I have not the faintest idea what "the X-Prize Cup" is and I agree with Mad Bomber that the US is less globally dominant than most Americans seem to think.

Aside from the false assumption about american education which is among the best in the world, especially on the university level the US has become globally dominate even in unseen ways. In no nation is the President not discussed or american actions not debated. As for the X-Prize Cup, it is an event funded by the X-Prize in which private entrepeneurs will be competing for prizes as it relates to privately launched space vehicles. SpaceShipOne is a non-government funded space vehicle. www.scaled.com do a yahoo search on x-prize cup for more information. It is an event that will allow x-prize contestants to compete against each other in several events for prize money.

For example, much of America's economic punch comes from the fact that it has borrowed so much money from the rest of the world (the US owes the UN more than anyone else does, for example).

The majority of US debt is not to foreign nations, but to private bankers within the US. US debt has been concentrated into a few rich hands since Thomas Jefferson made it his perogative to insure that though going into debt is undesirable it is best to go into debt with people you trust. Otherwise, the debtholders of the US are a closely guarded secret. I contest the notion that the US owes the UN anything. The UN has never lent out money to the US, it has no money to lend.

It's not necessarily because the US has a more fundamentally strong economy. Similarly, it is true that on many counts Bollywood is more important than Hollywood. For one thing, there are far more people in India than there are in America, and cinema-going is one of the most popular entertainments there. For another, Bollywood films are hugely popular elsewhere too. There are pleny of Bollywood-dominated video shops in London, where I live. Hrithik Roshan is probably idolised by many more people in the world than Brad Pitt is.

Bollywood is a spinoff of Hollywood. They even ripped off the name.

big business and Guantanamo Bay, then it might not be a good idea to start such a debate.

The people make up the big businesses of america. Are you contesting the authority of the government to hold suspects in the war on terrorism who were caught red-handed in afghanistan? I hope not. I see nothing profitable for you to try and undermine US authority.

[Plotinus]

[orrery] I am not trying to undermine US authority, I'm advising you to exercise a little more caution in the way you seem to be uncritically preaching it to all and sundry. This is certainly not the forum for such arguments anyway. Lajzar was simply commenting on your suggestions in a neutral way and you overreacted and started saying that the rest of the world should be more like your country. As someone who inhabits the rest of the world I resent that kind of thing.

I'm not going to get into an argument about the practices of the current US government, except to say that most of the world agrees that if you have people in prison who are suspected of a crime it is usual and desirable practice to charge them and bring them to trial so that they can be appropriately punished if they are guilty. Keeping them there indefinitely without charge or access to legal advice is, you would surely admit, controversial at best. I will add that "Bollywood" is simply a nickname for the Indian film industry, and that to call it a spin-off of Hollywood is like calling Hollywood a spin-off of Ealing.

[Fromage10x]

Frankly, I think they should just inject a little bit of SMAC into this whole thing and add a few customization options to governments.

Also, I say they should include Hollywood. It's not the only movie studio out there, but it certainly is very easily arguably the more famous--and isn't that how the Wonders are choosen in the first place?

[Fromage10x]

Frankly, I think they should just inject a little bit of SMAC into this whole thing and add a few customization options to governments.

Also, I say they should include Hollywood. It's not the only movie studio out there, but it certainly is very easily arguably the more famous--and isn't that how the Wonders are chosen in the first place?

[Addled Platypus]

All things popular may not make good game play


Look at Ling-Ling (panda bear)


But this brings in the idea of cultural exchanges (except in blood lust)

2nd thought

If disasters are going to be in the next version.

What about the option to send aid (increasing your cultural score)


Any body aboard this boat?