Prediction Thread: When Will Ukraine Conquer Russia

[BeBMan]

The actual seditious conspiracy convictions are probably just a coincidence.

I was wondering if that oathkeeper guy really lost an eye, or if is he's just using an eyepatch to look sharper?

[Serb]

Serb is still full of surprises, Geronimo.

[Serb]

Keep farting to the glass full of water on half, Westerners!

[Serb]

Only if it's also a coup for a leader to be elected after killing an unpopular protestor with his bare hands on national TV and getting elected partly due to jury nullification and public backlash against the protests.

It's not enough to have violent toadies, do something violent personally, or even gain power in part due to violent actions. The violent actions must constitute some sort of coercive force applied to the political process.

I would agree that a leader forced to flee for his life could be a coup if those who gained power forced him to flee. I don't agree that Viktor was forced to flee. I don't agree that those who gained power were threatening his life or using force.

What a sh!t!!!

[Serb]

...

[Serb]

Really? . "I have seen with my own eyes[/U] in 90's."??

How is that even possible? You saw them load up the assets into cargo planes running from the cops?

What did you actually see with your own eyes Serb?

I've seen poverty and a suicide on a mass-scale in 90's in my country, as well as a civil war between Russia and its part Chechnya instigated by YOU, USA).
I've seen how our government was infested by your American and Western "advisors", who had the real power over the economy and everything else (absolutely the same kind of power you have over Ukraine since 2014).
I've seen how your Corporations were withdrawing trillions, not billions, but TRILLIONS of USD from the Russian economy to the American, British , Cyprus banks.
I've seen it all! With my own eyes!

So, don't fuking tell me, American, you know better then me about Russia!

[Dinner]

Never mind. Big G covered it. I will disagree that there was ever any "coup" attempt.

[Geronimo]

The actual seditious conspiracy convictions are probably just a coincidence.

I think that was sort of his point. That the FBI didn't claim an organized conspiracy for the whole event but instead prosecuted smaller conspiracies within the riot/protest. My point was that that in no way renders viewing it overall as an attempted coup unreasonable.

[N35t0r]

The actual seditious conspiracy convictions are probably just a coincidence.

[Geronimo]

Wow, Ming is really drinking the Kool aid. There was no organized attempt to stop the transfer of power according to the FBI report. Maybe you should read it?

In hindsight an organized failed coup can be much harder to prove than a successful one. Just because the FBI didn't think they had enough evidence to treat the entire incursion of protestors and rioters as an organized coup does not mean there is a lack of convincing evidence that at least some of them wanted to prevent the transfer of power. Do you really believe the shouts to hang Mike pence weren't driven by opposition to the certification of votes?

Believing the capital incursion 06jan2021 was an attempted (if weakly organized and supported) coup is perfectly reasonable. Hardly "drinking the Kool aid".

[Dinner]

Wow, Ming is really drinking the Kool aid. There was no organized attempt to stop the transfer of power according to the FBI report. Maybe you should read it?

[Ming]

That was a protest turned riot with a couple hundred govt assets in attendance. If it was a coup they would have brought guns and used them, not roam the halls of the capital taking selfies. If MAGA snipers killed over a hundred people to frame Biden and he fled for his life, that would be a coup.

Uhhhh... they tried to stop the legal transfer of power. That was an attempted coup. FACT.

[Geronimo]

The separatists didn't need to be set up, the people in these regions wanted greater autonomy and the Nazis said fu to them. Why do the victims have to be politicians? If the leader is framed for a massacre and flees for his life that isn't a coup because he wasn't killed? Where did you find that requirement in the definition?

Oh good, because Azov didn't need to be setup either so I guess now you'll stop invoking them to justify everything Russia does.

The victims don't need to be politicians but the crimes against the victims do need to be politically coercive if they are not. Violence as deception would not count. You need to understand that if force=violence, your Webster definition starts to include scenarios that do not even remotely resemble a coup. The definition is clearly using a narrower sense of the word "force" than just "violence". Dictionaries don't work if you don't use some critical thinking.

[Geronimo]

I agree with your wider point but I don't get your example.

A simpler example in my mind was if a leader were assassinated, is that a coup? I don't ever (credibly) hear the assassination of Lincoln or Kennedy referred to as such, or the attempts on Thatcher or the Queen by the IRA to be a coup.

You're right certainly. The difficulty with a simple assassination example is that arguably that could become a coup simply based on who was ultimately responsible for the assassination. According to the very broad dictionary definition that Berz gave the assassination might be construed as "exercise of force in politics". I'm trying to show that violence cannot be equivalent to force in that definition without inviting absurd conclusions.

"a sudden decisive exercise of force in politics and especially the violent overthrow or alteration of an existing government by a small group" - Merriam Webster

[Dauphin]

To say otherwise implies other bizarre scenarios such as that if a leader was reelected in large measure for ordering a successful special military operation against a Nazi neighbor then I guess that election would become a coup and the runner up would be the legitimate leadership. It's nuts Berz.

I agree with your wider point but I don't get your example.

A simpler example in my mind was if a leader were assassinated, is that a coup? I don't ever (credibly) hear the assassination of Lincoln or Kennedy referred to as such, or the attempts on Thatcher or the Queen by the IRA to be a coup.