The Witch Hunt Revealed

[-Jrabbit]

Dude, you're just doubling down. I appreciate the fact that you tried to find alternate sources, but your deliberate conflating of VP Joe Biden with his adult son's business dealings is concerning. Your take on Manafort is in direct conflict with court documents and reports of his money laundering. And the fact is that Trump continued trying to put together a Moscow deal even after telling voters he had stopped. Not exactly a paragon of virtue.

I also want to address the fact that Team Trump has been accusing the Dems of exactly what they were doing (or wish they could do) for years now. That's become publicly clear, so they zagged and are now consistently using this accusation against anything they're accused of. It's a form of whataboutism -- in this case, avoiding the actual issue by accusing your opponents. Now they've just taken that up a level. But it's still a technique for avoiding the actual issue allegedly being discussed.

Shokin claiming he was fired because of Joe Biden's unhappiness with what he claims was a wide-ranging corruption probe is nothing more than a sworn statement, one that is not supported by any specifics on your claimed "fact" of Biden receiving millions, and your unsupported claim of their "legal problems." The world still awaits the first fact-based issue with VP Joe Biden's actions. No indictments, no money trail, no documentation. Just Shokin spinning his version.

Could it be that Joe Biden is dirty and Hunter Biden was the tool that made it possible? Sure. But if there was evidence, we should have seen it by now. But all we've got is an "affidavit" by a deposed Shokin and an alleged laptop with hard drive supposedly copied to multiple GOP operatives (Giuliani) and supposedly "seized by the FBI for their investigation."

Since the Wall St Journal couldn't stomach this obvious October Surprise ploy, the NY Post (another Murdoch property) picked up the ball and tried to run with it. Yet all we've seen are a handful of still photos and PDFs (without supporting metadata) of some vaguely disquieting emails. Hell, there wasn't even enough substance for Tucker Carlson to continue the charade. It was, quite frankly, a big nothingburger, and it's no surprise that some social media platforms nerfed it. If that's what you're calling censorship of the NY Post, that's just sad.

Obviously, we're going to disagree on a lot of this. But the fact that the righty media machine has actually convinced you that Trump's impeachment was because "Trump was investigating corruption" is truly laughable and unsupported by fact.

The thing that saddens me is that Team Trump seems intent on re-litigating the 2016 election even though they won, while at the same time refusing to admit their substantial loss in 2020. And on top of that, they want the world to pretend that the January 6th riot & insurrection didn't happen and we should all "just move forward" with no consequences.

[giblets]

Biden is a Ukrainian puppet

[Berzerker]

Rabbit

I dont visit Breitbart and only started watching Fox after independent-left journalists exposed Russiagate as a fraud. Up until that time - maybe 6-12 months before the Mueller and Horowitz reports showed Russiagate was a scam - I was a steady consumer of MSNBC Kool Aid. They had me believing Trump was a Manchurian candidate, they did.

Then I learned it was just non-stop lies and I seriously could not watch them anymore, they turned my stomach. I'm repulsed by the sight of these people now. The reason I started watching MSNBC long ago is largely because of Keith Olbermann ripping into the Bush crowd on a nightly basis for Iraq.

Usually before I believe Democrats and Republicans I look for independent corroboration from people I trust. I'm skeptical of Republican media... the Democrat media is far worse. That might change now with Biden in the WH, every little thing will be blown out of proportion by Fox while the Democrat media goes to sleep.

I discovered Jimmy Dore on youtube and I watched his guests debunk the Democrat's lies. People like Glenn Greenwald and Aaron Mate to name a couple. Ofc Julian Assange exposed the party as frauds before that and the media made the story about 'Russian interference' instead of Clinton rigging the primary.

Paul Manafort - nothing you said changes the fact it was the Dems' friends in Ukraine who brought him down. The so-called black ledger allegedly showing him receiving cash payouts is why he withdrew from Trump's campaign (he said his $$$ came in wire transfers and the ledger is a fraud). And he was trying to help the west pry Ukraine away from Russia under Obama.

The other legal troubles came later only because he made himself a target by signing on with Trump, same thing happened to Papadopoulus and Carter Page. While Democrats were griping about Russian interference their friends in Russia and Ukraine were interfering in our election on their behalf.

See how that works? Democrats repeatedly accused Trump of doing what they were doing.

As for the cold war ending, what changed? Did our intel and natl security state devoted to opposing the USSR declare victory and go home? Ofc not, the battle to reduce the Russian sphere of influence didn't stop and the people in charge now grew up fighting the cold war. Joe Biden was a young man when McCarthy was smearing people as traitors, now he leads a party who smeared multiple candidates as traitors.

Jill Stein, Bernie Sanders, Tulsi Gabbard, and Trump... All accused of being Putin's puppets. Do you know who had the most ties to Russia? Hillary... Trump couldn't even get a hotel built in Moscow. Machiavelli says turn your weakness on your opponent and attack their strengths. That gave us "Trump is a traitor" and the swiftboating of John Kerry.

Yes, social platforms badgered for years by Democrats for spreading misinformation censored the NY Post article about Hunter Biden and his laptop and so did the Democrat's media outlets. Why do you think thats BS? They did not however censor a letter signed by 50 natl security state people (the deep state) dismissing it all as just more Russian misinformation.

This is a little nitpicky but we didn't care about Ukrainian sovereignty, the west's policy was dismantling the former Soviet empire and had been for decades. We wanted Ukraine to join our side and Manafort was actually part of that effort.

Why was it our policy to fire a prosecutor investigating the company bribing the Bidens? Yes, I've heard the explanations from Democrats. He was corrupt. But we wanted a corrupt prosecutor, that was the whole point. We wanted a guy who would look the other way at the west's efforts to bribe people. Or in Joe's case, get bribes from Ukrainians.

The guy was fired for not looking the other way. He raided the owner of Burisma in Jan '16 and signed an affadavit

In a newly sworn affidavit prepared for a European court, Shokin testified that when he was fired in March 2016, he was told the reason was that Biden was unhappy about the Burisma investigation. “The truth is that I was forced out because I was leading a wide-ranging corruption probe into Burisma Holdings, a natural gas firm active in Ukraine and Joe Biden’s son, Hunter Biden, was a member of the Board of Directors,” Shokin testified.

“On several occasions President Poroshenko asked me to have a look at the case against Burisma and consider the possibility of winding down the investigative actions in respect of this company but I refused to close this investigation,” Shokin added.

https://thehill.com/opinion/campaign/463307-solomon-these-once-secret-memos-cast-doubt-on-joe-bidens-ukraine-story?rl=1

fact: Burisma gave the Biden's millions to get rid of their legal troubles
fact: Biden fired the prosecutor responsible for those legal troubles
fact: Burisma's legal troubles went away

Trump got impeached for investigating that corruption

[Buster Crabbe's Uncle]

Since I ain't seen a conservatroll in OT for three days running (Berz and Oerdin are parroting the Big Lies, but believe, not trolling) I want to place this poast to note that, indeed, adult conversation is suddenly taking place, as I think I mentioned it would, Ming. Your enjoyment of slap-fights w/ a dullard is no good for the rest of us.

-Carry on, gentlemen.

[giblets]

The Democrat media censored the NY Post by doing absolutely nothing, very clever.

[-Jrabbit]

Now you're just blindly repeating Fox/Breirbart/Trump propaganda. Lots to unpack, so I'll just address some basics.

-Paul Manafort made all his money from Ukraine for years, and was acting as an unregistered foreign agent. He pleaded guilty. He's a scumbucket of the highest order, convicted on 8 counts of bank and tax fraud (pleaded guilty, later pardoned) and clearly in the pocket of former Ukrainian president Viktor Yanukovych and Russian oligarch Oleg Deripaska. Fun fact: He tried to join John McCain's campaign in 2008, and McCain refused to accept him in any role due to his known scumminess.

-The Cold War ended in 1991. That's 30 years ago. Get some perspective.

-The NY Post was "censored" by "Democrat media"???? WTF, dude! Do you seriously believe that sentence? Because it's pure BS.

-If you'll set the Wayback Machine to 2014, you'll see that the actual issue the US and EU were wrestling with was Ukrainian sovereignty. Russia had already annexed Crimea (Putin's preferred Black Sea vacation spot) and were clearly set on Ukraine as their next target. Believing that US actions were actually based on Hunter's Burisma gig is a right-wing election fantasy that ignores the actual issues of the day.

-After 4 years of Trump owning the DOJ and stuffing the courts, it's rich that you blindly accept the "deep state" as the reason these allegations were not proven. THERE IS NO DEEP STATE, BERZ!

[Jon Miller]

Wanna bet these mistakes conspired to make Page look guilty? With honest mistakes I'd expect some to help the case and other mistakes to hurt it.

In this case, the one they found that was relevant (and they aren't going to look at/for mistakes that hurt the cause. If you have a statistical sample after looking everywhere of one, it means that (1) there was very few mistakes or errors or bad activity and (2) it is a coin flip which way the mistake went.

And Page was never indicted or convicted, so why are you concerned about his guilt? The mistake was that the last two of the four FISA wiretaps probably would not have been provided (but this is only probable, since we can't go back in time and provide everything to the court again). Note that everyone agrees that he would have had the wiretap from October 2016 to March 2017. Note that this was all of the relevant time anyway... Flynn was dismissed in February.

The Wapo link says he's 38 so he probably made his climb up the organizational ladder within the last decade. I dont see why that matters, your Wapo link says he didn't like Trump.

There are plenty of people who don't like Trump, the majority of the country. Including many Republicans (most of which have now lost their offices, but that doesn't mean that they were not/are not Republicans). What the above means is that he is not and Obama administration official. He does not provide any evidence in favor of 'Russiagate' or actions by the Obama administration against the Trump campaign or anything of that sort.

JM

[Berzerker]

from your Atlantic article

We would not know any of this had the Justice Department’s inspector general not completed a lengthy 2019 investigation—part of a report that ran more than 400 pages—into the Page surveillance after it had become part of Trump and his conservative supporters’ broader narrative that the FBI had pursued a political vendetta against the president. The inspector general’s office broadly rejected this idea—explaining that it “did not find documentary or testimonial evidence that political bias or improper motivation influenced” the FBI’s decisions—but it did find Clinesmith’s misrepresentation and referred that finding to the Justice Department for potential prosecution.

Okay, I've seen this argument many many times in the media and its a distortion of what IG Horowitz said. He found no evidence of bias regarding the investigation into Papadopoulus but he was emphatic that was not his opinion about the Fisa warrant on Page. He was the one who referred Clinesmith for possible charges.

[Berzerker]

Clinesmith was not a member of the Obama administration and there is no evidence linking him to the Obama administration. Your accusation of the Obama administration weaponizing the FBI has no evidence in favor of it and a lot of evidence opposed (see Comey et al. who were the actual contact points between the Obama administration and the FBI).

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/12/kevin-clinesmith-doj-sentencing/617350/

Finding minor mistakes that impact things would be pretty common in any long term investigation. That is why investigations are normally not opened without good cause. It becomes arbitrary and politically motivated punishment otherwise. In the ideal world there would be no mistakes, but this isn't the ideal world.

I don't understand your bias Berzerker. You are not a Trumpist like Kid or Lancer.

JM
(https://www.washingtonpost.com/local...0c2_story.html if you look at his age, he likely started working for the FBI during the Clinton or Bush administrations)

Wanna bet these mistakes conspired to make Page look guilty? With honest mistakes I'd expect some to help the case and other mistakes to hurt it. The Wapo link says he's 38 so he probably made his climb up the organizational ladder within the last decade. I dont see why that matters, your Wapo link says he didn't like Trump.

He's just the tip of the Russiagate iceberg. This was a concerted effort by people in a cold war with Russia, people devoted to prying apart its former empire. The Undiscovered Country. If you need evidence of the deep state, before the election Democrat media censored a NY Post about Hunter Biden and his laptop but allowed a letter signed by 50 'experts' who dismissed it as Russian disinformation without seeing it. Some of those people sold us Russiagate which was Russian disinformation.

We already know from Strzok's texts how people within the organization hated Trump and were trying to bring him down even before the election. Deep state friends from Ukraine torpedoed Manafort and the Democrats sent their 'foreign' dossier to allies in Obama's FBI and they used it to lie to a Fisa court. My God, this is the kind of crap I'd expect from J Edgar Hoover.

[Berzerker]

Bribing a government to fire a prosecutor investigating people bribing the government is legitimate? Is that still true when the man with the bribe has a son collecting millions from a company being investigated by the prosecutor? Imagine if Putin paid Congress a billion to fire the AG for investigating Russian bribes to Congress and the media.

That was a tip off for me, the Democrat/media chorus was Shokin flat out refused to investigate Hunter's company so he had to be fired. Reeeally

[Berzerker]

I stopped drinking the Kool Aid when Democrats told me Shokin was fired for refusing to prosecute Burisma. Yes, Joe Biden fired him for not going after his son's company. They actually said that. So it was in the news, must be true... You disbelievers are drinking Kool Aid.

The guy who fired Shokin told him why and it had nothing to do with corruption, he even apologized for the smear job from Biden and friends. We wanted cops to look the other way while we bribed Ukrainians. Shokin wasn't looking the other way.

Ever hear of The Atlantic Council? They were among those calling for Shokin's ouster. Did you know Burisma paid them $$$? Is it just a coincidence the loudest voices smearing Shokin wanted him gone because he was investigating the wrong people... our friends. Joe's friends... he was in control of policy in Ukraine.

The west was pouring money into the country to bribe and empower people, to buy pols and 'reformers'. The last thing we wanted was a prosecutor we couldn't buy. So we got rid of him and let everyone else know what will happen if they dont play ball, we'll bribe their boss.

As for Trump's 4 years, he spent most of that time fending off Obama's DoJ. The deep state wanted him gone and they weren't gonna let Trump's appointees stop them. But we have what we need, we have a guilty plea from someone who altered an email to make Carter Page look like a Russian asset so Obama's people could continue spying on Trump.

[Berzerker]

I was not happy with the prospect of a Putin controlled Trump, but after the Democrats thoroughly smeared Trump even I called him a Manchurian candidate. Turned out to be BS. I'm more worried about Beijing's hooks in the Biden family. I think people would be wise to worry about China.

[Jon Miller]

Really tired of the revisionist history BS.

I also. And it is important.

JM

[Jon Miller]

Clinesmith was not a member of the Obama administration and there is no evidence linking him to the Obama administration. Your accusation of the Obama administration weaponizing the FBI has no evidence in favor of it and a lot of evidence opposed (see Comey et al. who were the actual contact points between the Obama administration and the FBI).

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/12/kevin-clinesmith-doj-sentencing/617350/

Finding minor mistakes that impact things would be pretty common in any long term investigation. That is why investigations are normally not opened without good cause. It becomes arbitrary and politically motivated punishment otherwise. In the ideal world there would be no mistakes, but this isn't the ideal world.

I don't understand your bias Berzerker. You are not a Trumpist like Kid or Lancer.

JM
(https://www.washingtonpost.com/local...0c2_story.html if you look at his age, he likely started working for the FBI during the Clinton or Bush administrations)

[BeBMan]

. Nor can the GOP explain how the very public campaign to get Ukraine to dump the clearly corrupt Shokin was corrupt. It was done openly, with full encouragement of the EU and NATO.

It's also a typical foreign policy thing to do to tie foreign help to certain conditions, that's what govs, incl. various US govs do (regardless if dem or rep-run). That's how foreign policy is conducted worldwide. Not like anyone has to agree with a particular policy, but to present it as something illegitimate is pretty laughable.

(And no, it's not the same as Donnie doing something for personal gain).