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**Jimmywax** · May 5, 2001, 20:16

You should contact Master On High. He seems to know a lot of that stuff. I could look it up for you but I am to lazy.
His address is: sifl1690466@aol.com

After he gets a list for ya' I may have some of the units you need.

**Mao** · May 5, 2001, 23:30

What about Su-27s and MiG-29s?

**Case** · May 6, 2001, 01:34

quote:

Originally posted by Grothgar on 05-05-2001 04:31 PM
F-19 Frisbee (stealth fighter)

This aircraft never actually existed, Tom Clancy guessed wrong on the designation and appearance of the F-117 Nighthawk stealth fighter.

Indeed, there never seems to have been a US aircraft designated the F-19, I've read that this designation was either used to hide a captured Russian fighter, or the makers of the F-20 Tigershark wanted the 'sexier' F-20 out the front of thier fighter

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If all else fails, immortality can always be assured by spectacular error
-John Kenneth Galbraith

**master on high** · May 6, 2001, 05:16

Not like it worked.

That's one ugly fighter.

Mao...is that all you know about equipment from the 1980s?

*the COUNCIL leaves Mao in Poland*
[This message has been edited by master on high (edited May 06, 2001).]

**Grothgar** · May 6, 2001, 09:34

The SU-27 is the codenamed bear isnt it? And i didnt thin Mi-29 were in service then but thanx for the feedback. Well the aircraft may never have existed but as this is a fictional scenario anyway it doesnt matter if fictional aircraft are used does it? And they play a big part early on so i cant really take them out.

**Mao** · May 6, 2001, 13:49

Su-27 is the Flanker IIRC.

THE COUNCIL flogs master for misspelling the name of THE COUNCIL.

**master on high** · May 7, 2001, 23:16

*sigh*

Su-27 Flanker
MiG-29 Fulcrum

Both entered service in the early 80s.

Tu-20 (often refered to as the Tu-95) Bear

Strategic prop driven bomber from the 50s...

**Eternal** · May 8, 2001, 03:40

Grothgar, how can you forget to include the Arab states in your list of civilizations? After all the whole war was only to weaken NATO so that USSR could sieze the Gulf's oil fields without NATO interference.
...Also, While I do think France and the Allies can be a seperate country because it was not part of the Integrated Command Structure, West Germany should definitely be with Britain and the US.

There are some units you forgot, such as combat engineers (for urban clearance and river crossing, the Soviets had lots of these), and mountain infantry (for Germany's southern hills). And since you included SAS and SEALS under Allied units, why not include Spetznaz units?

One thing you definitely can't forget for the Soviets, and for the allies I suppose, is artillery. The Soviets had an entire Artillery DIVISION in Poland. I suggest you include and S7 unit.

There is also the subject of naval units. You will need Nimitz class aircraft carriers, French and English aircraft carriers, preferably destroyers for each country, cruisers, and of course attack submarines and transports.

Also, you have to reserve some unit slots for thing you may need in order to have the events work. For example, when I was working on my scenario on the subject, rather than make air units that NATO fighter/bombers that the AI will throw away on suicide missions, I made Air Strike missile units that spawn at high-traffic area, such as the Fulda Gap when it is overrun. Another area I needed them was in the Seas north of Norway, where NATO aircraft will do their best to sink Soviet ships trying to make it to sea to stop American reinforcements. I had to make it so that the Air Strikes would stop spawning when the Soviets worked down the coast, so when they took cities, I had to place a stationary Soviet units in the sea where they were supposed to spawn, so they can't.

With all that work, it's no wonder I never finished the thing, isn't it?

...

If you need to drop some units, you could limit your soviet tanks, because most of them are hardly different from the other (the T-72 is just a modified version of the T-64), and why need to T-80s? And the various special forces like SAS and SEALs aren't really necessary since although they are valuable, their net benefit would be negligible in the European theater as a whole. Nor do I see a great need for so many aircraft. One for each country perhaps (I also included the Swedish J-37 Viggen and a Yugoslavian fighter), but no more than one jet for one role per allied country. And as for the Soviet and Pact countries, you probably only need two interceptors and two fighter/bombers whose central purpose is ground attack.
Also, even though strategic bombers did have a role in attacking the NATO reinforcement fleet in the book, remember the only two used there were Bear (Tu-20) and (I assume) Backfire B(Tu-26). Unfortunately this was too early for the ultra-cool Blackjack.

I'm sorry, I just really like the idea, and I'd like to see someone be able to complete it.

[This message has been edited by Eternal (edited May 08, 2001).]

**master on high** · May 8, 2001, 11:36

Why would you need a T-20 to bomb Europe?

All I remember from the Soviet plans is that they'd use Su-24s for the longer bombing missions in Europe.

I wish I could have that varified.
[This message has been edited by master on high (edited May 08, 2001).]

**Grothgar** · May 8, 2001, 13:15

Thanx for the feedback guys and thank you very much to:
Master on High for his euro map
Jimmywax for the huge amount of units he has given me to work with

Eternal not to say that you dont read my threads but the 203mm and the 180mm Field gun are both artillery units and as for mobile artillery the SO-152 is exactly that and also the BM-22 Uragan is a rocket launcher launching 203mm rockets so if your asking what artillery then there you go

At the moment i am talking with master on high and weve managed to take the units down to 51 i think so i hope to have a little bit of space left but otherwise thanx for the feedback eternal and i wondered what the backfire B's classification was

The reason i didnt include the naval units was that i was going to make them mostly the same. heres a list i think

Diesel Submarine
Nuclear Submarine
AEGIS Cruiser
FFG Frigate
Aircraft Carriers
Merchant Navy Transports
and maybe more but thats akll you need really

Keep the feedback coming

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I am the LORD OF STRONDAR

**Eternal** · May 8, 2001, 18:52

Sorry I didn't notice that you included the artillery. When I was looking through the list I was thinking specifically "S3", "S7", etc.

I don't think you should have just those naval units. Because Soviet ships and subs weren't really as good as ours.

**Case** · May 8, 2001, 19:26

quote:

Originally posted by Grothgar on 05-08-2001 01:15 PM
Diesel Submarine
Nuclear Submarine
AEGIS Cruiser
FFG Frigate
Aircraft Carriers
Merchant Navy Transports
and maybe more but thats akll you need really

I'd also include ampibious assault ships. These ships would be vital to Soviet plans to secure Norway and Iceland, and I beleive the Warsaw Pact maintained a large fleet of 'phibs in the Baltic which would have been used to outflank NATO in West Germany and invade Denmark.

Another ship that would be worth including is the Kirov Class battlecruisers. Whilst in Red Storm Rising the Kirov was nothing but torpedo bait, these ships would have played a major part in Soviet naval strategy.

Eternal, whilst Soviet ships wern't anywhere as good as American ones, they were superior to the Ships in most of the NATO navies.

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If all else fails, immortality can always be assured by spectacular error
-John Kenneth Galbraith
[This message has been edited by Case (edited May 08, 2001).]

**master on high** · May 8, 2001, 19:49

For the Soviets just give em:

Kilos, Akulas, Sovremmnys/Udaloys, Kirovs, and maybe a Kuznetov.

Earlier models used by the Polish, Romanians, and Bulgarians could be relatively generic. Dunno what amphibious models were.

For the Americans give em:

Los Angeles, Ohio, Knox, Kidd/Arleigh Burkes, Nimitz, and maybe a Kennedy. Tarawas for amphibs?

Not so good for the Brits...Sheffields, Boxers, or Invincibles I'd guess.

Type 122s and 123s for the Germans. Agostas and whatever else for the French.

And then there are the carriers in Spain and Italy...ACK! The Italian one is an improved copy of the Spanish one...but I don't remember the Spanish one (The Prince something...the Italian is the Garibaldi).

Can't think of the French carrier either...but the new one is the De Gaulle.

**Grothgar** · May 8, 2001, 20:28

Well major changes in this scenario. I have decided to concentrate wholly on the tank battles in europe for this scenario. thus the UK & US Civ is now just the UK and they cant build US units they will "arrive" on convoy ships from america but this wont happen until the time frame in the book where the US gets back iceland to allow it to get those vital supplies in. This major change was helped(?) by master on highs amazing Europe map. i just couldnt not use that after all the sterling work he had put in,
Now many of you might say that the UK alone wouldnt be a big enough civilisation. WRONG! not on this map mate, I have just finnished placing the UK and the French cities/towns and the UK has 39 cities! but the French have 76!!! yes 76!!! cities/towns so this is going to be one major scenario. big scale and everything. also this means i can acuratly show the population of the respective countries. however i start at the thought of doing the nato allies civ because lets see. They in corparate Spain, Italy, Belgium, Holland, Luxembourg, Denmark so thats a HELL of a lot of cities. but hey im nothing if not ambitious. So i wont be needing as many sea units as i would be because there is only the mediteranian and i dont thin there was much fighting there.
Well let me know what you think of this change i welcome all feedback as long as its backed up with evidence lol
Thank you
Gary

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I am the LORD OF STRONDAR

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