Civilisation Board Game?

[Chowlett]

quote: Originally posted by Tau Ceti on 04-30-2001 09:15 PM -- "This is where the rules seem to change." The computer game is based on Avalon Hill's Advanced Civilization, which is an expansion set for the original. Unfortunately, after Avalon Hill was bought by Hasbro, production of all old games stopped, and I do not think any are available anymore. Though I have only briefly, once, looked at the box of the Gibson(?) version, I believe it is the same as Avalon Hill's without the Advanced Expansion. (It was the original, and I believe AH produced their version on licence.) But there will be some slight differences between the computer game and the board game, such as here. In Civ (board), tradable calamities can only be traded once, and whoever gets it then is hit by it. The original drawer can choose not to trade it, and can keep it for later or discard it for no effect. In Adv Civ (computer and board), tradable calamities can be traded any number of times, and whoever gets stuck with it at the end of trading is hit by it - even if he is the original drawer and has not traded it. So your impression is correct. And as you have seen you can only be the primary victim of two calamities per turn.

This would seem to make sense, since the game is called "Advanced Civilization". It is definitely Gibson that still make the original (you can find it here), as noted above I saw it in a shop recently, and am seriously considering buying it. From what you say the rule changes seem to be predominantly cosmetic, with the exception of the calamity trading, which serves merely to make the game slightly easier, and possibly slightly more sensible (how do you become the victim of your own treachery?!) and fairer.

quote: -- "Tricky, without a help file." Well, you have us. List of calamities: [*]No calamities[*]Non-tradable: Volcanic Eruption/Earthquake. Not very nasty. Engineering helps agains Earthquake. Tradable: Treachery. Not very nasty - can be beneficial as you can plunder the city afterwards. Nothing helps against it.[*]Non-tradable: Famine. Moderately nasty. Pottery helps if you also have Grain cards, which then cannot be used for anything else that turn (you must simply hold on to them). Tradable: Superstition. Not very nasty. The religion cards (Mysticism, Deism, Enlightenment) help.[*]Non-tradable: Civil War. Extremely nasty. Music, Drama & Poetry and Democracy help. Philosophy usually makes things worse, unless you are very very large. Tradable: Slave Revolt. Not very nasty. Enlightenment helps, Mining aggravates.[*]Non-tradable: Flood. Very nasty for Egypt and Babylon, otherwise not very nasty. Engineering helps. Tradable: Barbarian Hordes. Very nasty for Africa, Crete is immune, otherwise moderately nasty. No direct help, although Metalworking slows them down.[*]Tradable: Epidemic. Extremely nasty (the combination Civil War/Epidemic is utterly deadly). Unsurprisingly, Medicine helps a lot. Roadbuilding aggravates.[*]Tradable: Civil Disorder. Extremely nasty. Music, Drama & Poetry, Law and Democracy help. Roadbuilding aggravates.[*]Tradable Iconoclasm & Heresy. Very nasty (deadly in combination with Civil Disorder or Civil War). Law, Philosophy and Theology help. Monotheism and Roadbuilding aggravate.[*]Tradable: Piracy. Very nasty. Nothing helps.[/list=a]

Very useful, thank you. This section at least will be printed.

quote: -- "Twice the base value, is it?" Yes, but in the standard rules you can only buy '9' cards.

I have no idea what the rules here are, I've never made use of the feature. I will check al the various ins and outs of the game rules, as far as I can see, and relate them to you if you like.

quote: -- "Do you mean the trading rules, or the "engine"?" The engine, primarily. The rules should be, you trade three cards (technically at least three, but you will have trouble finding anyone who accepts more than that) and have to truthfully name two of them?

Those do indeed seem to be the rules, except that you must trade exactly three for three. First of all, you choose the 2 cards you are truthfully naming. Then you choose what the "bluff" card will ostensibly be to the other players, followed by what you are actually replacing it by (goods or calamity). You then select up to 5 "wanted" goods, that you would be willing to trade for.

Once all players have done this, a screen is displayed listing the current offers of all nations, with the "bluff" obviously being shown, not the actual replacement, and with the three cards randomised so you don't know which is each person's bluff. You then get the chance to respond to any other player's offer, by basically saying "What you are offering is good enough for me, here is what I offer in return." Again, 2 of your cards must be truthfully stated, the third may be a bluff. When this has finished, each player in turn is shown their original offer (I can't remember how bluffs are dealt with here) along with any responses. The responses show the offered exchange, the nation offering, and the projected change in your goods' values if the deal is entirely truthful. You may choose to accept any one deal offered to you, or reject all deals. Once you have traded in any one session, you may not trade again in that session (logical, as you may no longer have the cards you were offering). Each game turn has two consecutive rounds of trading, unless no deals were made in the first round.

Hope that's clear.

quote: I have never played the advanced version, just the original one. IIRC, you can only be hit by two calamities each turn, and they are resolved in the ranking order. i.e., the value of the trade cards with which they stack. So if you have good defenses against two low ranking calmities, you might want to hang on to them so you don't get zapped by higher ranking -- and generally nastier -- calamities. I guess you get more choices of starting countries if you play with more players. It's more fun that way too.

This indeed seems to be the way it works.

quote: Africa is a good place to start without Egypt in the game. Just migrate towards the Nile valley and grab all the fertile land there. Also move towards the shore to squeeze Crete.

Tried this in my very first part game. Only problem is that not all of eastern Africa/Nile valley is available with few enough players to ensure Egypt doesn't exist. And the human chooses first, so I can't tell if Egypt is in the game until too late to do anything about it.

quote: You should be able to know how many trade cards are in each stack tough. For example, there are 3 of gold (stack #9), unless they expanded it and make 2 commordities in each stack, then it would be 6, plus the totally nasty Piracy card, for 7 cards in total. Now only a player with 9 cities can draw from that stack, so you know how many are drawn each turn. You should be able to find out who got the calamity card by drawing a nice little queue on paper

Right. Unfortunately I don't know how many are in each stack. Maybe Tau could help here, as it seems to be pretty much a direct port from the board game. In case it's not, I'd better say that there are two commodities for each value - as far as I can remember:
1. Hides, Ochre
2. Iron, Papyrus
3. Timber, Salt
4. Oil, Grain
5. Wine, Cloth
6. Silver, Bronze
7. Resin, Spices
8. Dye, Gems
9. Gold, Ivory

quote: Worst calamity combo: Civil Disorder + Iconoclasm and Heresy. If you have no defenses, say bye to all your cities.

Remind me again, what precisely would this combination do?

Thanks a lot to you guys. This is why I like this site
[This message has been edited by Chowlett (edited May 01, 2001).]

[Tau Ceti]

quote: From what you say the rule changes seem to be predominantly cosmetic, with the exception of the calamity trading, which serves merely to make the game slightly easier, and possibly slightly more sensible (how do you become the victim of your own treachery?!) and fairer.

That is not entirely correct; I just did not feel like making a very long post at 3:15 AM. Let me do a quick overview of the differences I can remember:

• Fewer trade cards: From stack 3 up, there is only one commodity in each stack: Salt, Grain, Cloth, Bronze, Spice, Gems and Gold. There are also fewer Gems and Gold cards.
• Fewer Calamities: Treachery, Superstition, Slave Revolt and Barbarian Hordes are not there.
• Different trading rules: You name one card and the total value of the cards in the trade. Calamities can be traded only once, and can be discarded if untraded.
• Fewer tech advances: You lose the entire Religion Category (Deism, Enlightenment, Monotheism and Theology). Mysticism survives, but as an Arts/Science card. Mathematics, Roadbuilding, Mining and Military are gone too.
• Restrictions on tech acquisition: There are only 4 of each advance card, except Law (7), Democracy (6), Philosophy (5) and Mysticism (3). Thus it is impossible for more than 4 nations to discover Astronomy, Metalworking, Engineering, Architecture and all the others. Furthermore, each nation is limited to a maximum of 11 advances. This means that Babylon, for example, cannot buy all the cheap techs as the total value of their 11 then cannot exceed the 1400 they need to win.
• Different victory conditions: Victory is based exclusively on reaching the end of the AST first. In Adv Civ, the value of advancements, number of cities etc. also count.
• Different order of play: You buy advances before calamities are resolved, so you can buy Engineering to save you from the Flood that is about to hit you.
• No Western Extension Map as that was an AH product too (although separate from both Civ and Adv Civ). The map is cut off right west of Italy.

IMO, Adv Civ improves on all aspects and has no drawbacks. Civ is still one of the greatest boardgames in existence, but I doubt I could go back after having played the Advanced version. A bit like Sid's Civ1 and Civ2.

-- "Hope that's clear."

I think so. If I have understood it correctly, you can potentially make one deal with each of the other nations for their offers, plus one due to your own offer, per trading round? The engine still sounds a little restrictive, but given the limitations they have to work with, it probably works quite well.

-- "Unfortunately I don't know how many are in each stack. Maybe Tau could help here"

Somewhat, at least. I do not remember how many of each there are in the first two stacks, but the others are as follows:

3. 8 Timber, 9 Salt
4. 7 Oil, 8 Grain
5. 6 Wine, 7 Cloth
6. 5 Silver, 6 Bronze
7. 5 Resin, 6 Spice
8. 4 Dye, 5 Gems
9. 4 Ivory, 5 Gold

But note that, in Adv Civ, only non-tradable calamities are at the bottom of the stack. Tradable ones are shuffled in, initially with at least (number of players) cards above them, later shuffled with all cards of that value that were used/discarded on that turn. So card counting will not get you very far.

-- "Remind me again, what precisely would this combination do?"

Civil Disorder reduces all your cities except three. Then Iconoclasm & Heresy reduces four of your cities. Ouch.

[This message has been edited by Tau Ceti (edited May 01, 2001).]

[Urban Ranger]

You can use your money to:

- Buy civ advances. If your trade cards fall short by a bit, you can throw in money.

- Buy ships. We used to buy ships for no reason so we can get some tokens back

IIRC, you get the most value for hording the cards in the middle (cloth, grain, salt, and silver). It's worth it to trade away the higher valued cards to get these, since the value for a set is the square of the number of cards in the set multiplied by the value of the card. Therefore the 8th grain card is worth a lot more to you than one gem card.

[Chowlett]

quote: Originally posted by Tau Ceti on 05-01-2001 09:29 AM That is not entirely correct; I just did not feel like making a very long post at 3:15 AM.

I can understand that.

quote: Let me do a quick overview of the differences I can remember: Fewer trade cards: From stack 3 up, there is only one commodity in each stack: Salt, Grain, Cloth, Bronze, Spice, Gems and Gold. There are also fewer Gems and Gold cards. Fewer Calamities: Treachery, Superstition, Slave Revolt and Barbarian Hordes are not there. Different trading rules: You name one card and the total value of the cards in the trade. Calamities can be traded only once, and can be discarded if untraded. Fewer tech advances: You lose the entire Religion Category (Deism, Enlightenment, Monotheism and Theology). Mysticism survives, but as an Arts/Science card. Mathematics, Roadbuilding, Mining and Military are gone too. Restrictions on tech acquisition: There are only 4 of each advance card, except Law (7), Democracy (6), Philosophy (5) and Mysticism (3). Thus it is impossible for more than 4 nations to discover Astronomy, Metalworking, Engineering, Architecture and all the others. Furthermore, each nation is limited to a maximum of 11 advances. This means that Babylon, for example, cannot buy all the cheap techs as the total value of their 11 then cannot exceed the 1400 they need to win. Different victory conditions: Victory is based exclusively on reaching the end of the AST first. In Adv Civ, the value of advancements, number of cities etc. also count. Different order of play: You buy advances before calamities are resolved, so you can buy Engineering to save you from the Flood that is about to hit you. No Western Extension Map as that was an AH product too (although separate from both Civ and Adv Civ). The map is cut off right west of Italy. IMO, Adv Civ improves on all aspects and has no drawbacks. Civ is still one of the greatest boardgames in existence, but I doubt I could go back after having played the Advanced version. A bit like Sid's Civ1 and Civ2.

That's quite a difference. Certainly a lot of play subtlety has been added by Adv Civ (or looking at the other way, a lot would be lost going back). Hmm, I shall think carefully before buying. And check how much they want for it!

quote: -- "Hope that's clear." I think so. If I have understood it correctly, you can potentially make one deal with each of the other nations for their offers, plus one due to your own offer, per trading round? The engine still sounds a little restrictive, but given the limitations they have to work with, it probably works quite well.

No, not quite. As far as I can see, you can make one trade per round, and one trade only; but that could be with any other civ either as a response to their offer, or as their response to your offer. As far as I've seen, not both: since the deals are carried out in a turn-based fashion, not real-time, this is logical since otherwise the cards would have changed between deals. There are, however, two seperate rounds of trade, one after the other, so in any one game turn you may make up to two deals. (I think there are options to increase the number of trade rounds per turn)

quote: -- "Unfortunately I don't know how many are in each stack. Maybe Tau could help here" Somewhat, at least. I do not remember how many of each there are in the first two stacks, but the others are as follows: 3. 8 Timber, 9 Salt 4. 7 Oil, 8 Grain 5. 6 Wine, 7 Cloth 6. 5 Silver, 6 Bronze 7. 5 Resin, 6 Spice 8. 4 Dye, 5 Gems 9. 4 Ivory, 5 Gold But note that, in Adv Civ, only non-tradable calamities are at the bottom of the stack. Tradable ones are shuffled in, initially with at least (number of players) cards above them, later shuffled with all cards of that value that were used/discarded on that turn. So card counting will not get you very far.

Ah well. Probably fairer that way.

quote: Civil Disorder reduces all your cities except three. Then Iconoclasm & Heresy reduces four of your cities. Ouch.

Yes, that would hurt considerably. Even with enough tokens to reform next turn, regression in the AST, here we come.
[This message has been edited by Chowlett (edited May 01, 2001).]

[Grumbold]

Civilisation is a brilliant but long boardgame. The expansion pack made trading easier (by having more commodities at each level, there is less competition fighting over scarce resources) and added a few additional calamaties. IMO this made the game faster but less skillful so I prefer the original - when someone was hoarding wheat hoping for a prime payout, famine would be almost constant

[Chowlett]

quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger on 05-01-2001 10:18 AM You can use your money to: - Buy civ advances. If your trade cards fall short by a bit, you can throw in money. - Buy ships. We used to buy ships for no reason so we can get some tokens back IIRC, you get the most value for hording the cards in the middle (cloth, grain, salt, and silver). It's worth it to trade away the higher valued cards to get these, since the value for a set is the square of the number of cards in the set multiplied by the value of the card. Therefore the 8th grain card is worth a lot more to you than one gem card.

I feel I don't quite understand the treasury yet. Is it the case that, at the start of each turn, tokens from stock are put into treasury? If so, you then get a tax revolt if this causes you to run out of tokens in stock?

Ships created from treasury therefore allow you to return two tokens to stock next turn by failing to upkeep it? So what happens if you do upkeep, thereby using another token - is this returned as well, or is it lost?

Let's be honest here, I haven't a clue how stuff gets into the treasury, and whether your token numbers are fixed in total, or flexible. Please enlighten me.

And yes, sets of things are worth far more.

[Chowlett]

A little bit of experimentation and attention-paying, and I got most of those stock-treasury points by trial and error. All I missed was the determining of Civil War benefactor - how is that done? Until coinage, I am now attempting to ensure that each turn I disband and immediately rebuild 4 boats, thereby moving 8 tokens back to stock. I also usually try to spend as much treasury as possible when buying tools.

This game is looking much more promising than the last. Crete will still beat me to it, but I'm looking like third place at the moment in an 8 player game. I took Assyria, and was eternally grateful that Asia was the missing player. With only babylon to contend with, I took most of the western cities on that continent, and am holding the north with my units. I also grabbed a few in the Babylon flood plain, and held them until a flood came, which I was expecting. So, I've reclaimed one, and look like possibly getting another shortly. I now have engineering, so I don't have to worry about that any more. To ease the stock re-populating shortage I plan to found a 12-unit city in my next turn, bringing my total to 7. I need only one more tool to make it into the Early Iron age, after which it's just hope I can clock up expensive tools faster than Crete and Africa.

Oh, and of course, pray that I don't get hit by a nasty calamity.

[Urban Ranger]

The original has this nice simple elegance to it. The advanced version added more stuff, making it somewhat easier.

You're doing all right.

There are certain nasty tricks you can do if you have the advantage of going last. For example, you can mess up somebody's city building plans by moving a few tokens into the area, and reducing the stack to less than 6 (or 12). This is esp fun when the area can support only one population *evil grin*

Here's the rules for the original Civilisation for your reference.

[Grumbold]

Balancing Stock, Treasury and counters on the board is a crucial skill in the game. You have a fixed counter mix which must supply all three needs. Learning how to flow counters from stock to treasury or board and back again is essential. Each city will convert 2 tokens from stock to treasury per turn as tax (modified to 1-3 by the coinage advance). Buying a ship gets 2 tokens from treasury to stock. Maintaining a ship costs one but you can voluntarily disband in order to buy it again the turn after instead. Buying Gold gets 18 treasury into stock. Moving tokens into areas that will not support them (or converting to cities) gets them off the board back to stock. Not having enough tokens available to provide the tax money will cause problems. Having the most tokens in stock makes you go last (advantageous) and enables you to benefit from aonther players civil war too. If you spend too much time trying to "fight" your neighbours and ignore city building and stock management you will lose the game. Endless warfare can be lots of fun in itself!

[Chowlett]

Thanks for that link, I have now read the original rules and I feel they are, while certainly less complete than the Adv Civ rules, definitely a good set. I guess, from reading them, that the victim of civil war chooses the beneficiary, and if the beneficiary cannot cope with all the extra cities, they do a tax revolt style move to the player with the highest stock?

At some point, I really must go and check on the price of the game.

[Grumbold]

I think in the computer game it is the person with most pieces in stock that benefits but I may be wrong. I haven't played the game for quite some time. Going last and having the option to place 2 tokens where it will most disrupt your neighbour is the biggie

[Chowlett]

I've now ben to ckeck price, and it's £21.95, or probably roughly $30. On the understanding that I'm a penniless student, and I may not be able to find more than 4 players at any one time, is it in your considered opinion that it's worth my parting with cash for?

[Urban Ranger]

It is somewhat expensive, but you can keep the game for ages, and it's really a lot of fun. Causal gamers will like it for the interactions.

I don't think you're penniless

[Chowlett]

Thank you, I shall probably buy it. I am a person who has a lot of games, and they usually get an airing once in a while, so it will probably eventually be worth it. I can use it to indoctrinate my future kids into the wonderful world of world domination through expansion and technology games, thereby indirectly selling their souls to Sid.

And no, I'm not penniless, it's just an adjective that always attaches to the front of Student whenever money's mentioned.

[Grumbold]

The game is best played with 6/7 people but is certainly fun and entertaining (and shorter!) with 4 players.