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  • #76
    Originally posted by Rasbelin
    Sierra Interactive (all the great Caesar games)...
    These were only published by Sierra. They were developed by Impressions Games, which I thought were still in business, as they developed the "Lords of the Realm III", which was released a little over a month ago. But somehow their website URL redirects straight to VU, which didn use to happen before, so I don't know if that was their last game or what.
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    • #77
      Originally posted by Urban Ranger
      The groundbreaking part about Balance of Power is the subject matter.
      What, cold war? International politics? I don't think so.

      To a lesser degree, how the game is played. The player has to walk a tight rope to achieve his goals, and this certainly influenced quite a number of games later on.
      Too general. You had to walk a tightrope in "Camel".

      These games aren't that numerous. Former efforts include Ashes of Empire and Shadow President.
      Mmmmm. Superpower.

      rogue isn't a real-time RPG.
      Well, duh. That's an almost superficial difference. Diablo is a direct (intentional) rip-off of Nethack.

      rogue is the granddaddy of all rogue-like games
      Actually, "Beneath Apple Manor" predates Rogue by about 2 years. Longer, if you're counting microcomputer availability.

      Empire? No. It's just a war game.
      I'm muddling it with some other ca 1984 game. Castles? Hamurabi had some successors that remind me more of Civ, with city-sites, etc.

      Now, the $64 question: What was the first game with a tech tree? Not a role-playing power-up individual deal, but one where the tech tree had a broad (somewhat abstract) impact on play.

      I fail to see the importance of Castle Wolfenstein. Return to Castle Wolfenstein, id's first FPS, has nothing to do with the original game other than the name and the setting.
      The final product, yes. In development, many aspects were derived directly from Silas Warner's origiinal game. Those were dropped to streamline the play perhaps spurring John Romero's "design is law" creed, his departure from id, and the subsequent spectacular failure of G.O.D.

      OK, maybe that's stretching it, but how about this quote from Romero himself?

      "Wolfenstein 3D took 6 months to develop from start to finish. When we started kicking around ideas for a theme for a 3D shooter, we thought about a science lab full of runaway mutants and you have to rescue the scientists and stuff. I thought that was a really lame idea so I said, "Let's do Castle Wolfenstein in 3D!" It was an immediate hit with everyone at id because we had all played Silas Warner's seminal action game."

      Heheheh---he said "seminal".
      [ok]

      "I used to eat a lot of natural foods until I learned that most people die of natural causes. "

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      • #78
        Originally posted by alva
        infrogrames

        Keep posting like that and we might soon be listing your name in this thread.

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        • #79
          Originally posted by okblacke
          What, cold war? International politics? I don't think so.
          If not, please point out an earlier game that deals with the same subject matter.

          Originally posted by okblacke
          Well, duh. That's an almost superficial difference. Diablo is a direct (intentional) rip-off of Nethack.
          Diablo is much worse than nethack in many ways.

          Originally posted by okblacke
          Actually, "Beneath Apple Manor" predates Rogue by about 2 years. Longer, if you're counting microcomputer availability.
          I don't think so. Bill Joy wrote rogue when he was a graduate student for Unix, some time in the mid 1970's.

          Originally posted by okblacke
          The final product, yes. In development, many aspects were derived directly from Silas Warner's origiinal game. Those were dropped to streamline the play perhaps spurring John Romero's "design is law" creed, his departure from id, and the subsequent spectacular failure of G.O.D.

          OK, maybe that's stretching it, but how about this quote from Romero himself?

          "Wolfenstein 3D took 6 months to develop from start to finish. When we started kicking around ideas for a theme for a 3D shooter, we thought about a science lab full of runaway mutants and you have to rescue the scientists and stuff. I thought that was a really lame idea so I said, "Let's do Castle Wolfenstein in 3D!" It was an immediate hit with everyone at id because we had all played Silas Warner's seminal action game."

          Heheheh---he said "seminal".
          Let me get this straight. First you dissed Romero, then you quoted him to support your position? Please, make up your mind first.
          (\__/) 07/07/1937 - Never forget
          (='.'=) "Claims demand evidence; extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence." -- Carl Sagan
          (")_(") "Starting the fire from within."

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          • #80
            Originally posted by Urban Ranger
            I don't think so. Bill Joy wrote rogue when he was a graduate student for Unix, some time in the mid 1970's.
            1980 to be precise. And Bill Joy had nothing to do with it. He founded Sun, but didn't code Rogue. The thing was written by Ken Arnold, Michael Toy, and Glenn Wichman.

            Brief Rogue History by Glenn Wichman


            1980 is still before 1983, which is when "Beneath Apple Manor" was released, though, so you are correct there. 1983 is also when Rogue was ported to DOS...
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            • #81
              Originally posted by Urban Ranger
              If not, please point out an earlier game that deals with the same subject matter.
              Ooh. I'll have to think about it. There was a company that made these offbeat (text-based) simulations for the Apple ][. One of them, for example, was to manage a television network (sort of presaging Molyneux's Hollywood). Another was a financial sim called "Windfall".

              I think they also did one on the Cold War--specifically a US v. Soviet battle. It might've been called "Cold War"...gimme time, this was a few years ago.

              There was another game that used a world map--hi-res B&W map...

              Unfortunately, a lot of these games are completely lost except to my memory.

              There was a game by a company called "Synergistic Software" called "Wilderness Campaign". The first strategy/fantasy game I can recall--sort of a "Heroes of Might & Magic" progenitor. A blast. I can't even find that one recognized on the web.

              Diablo is much worse than nethack in many ways.
              Yes. And better in others. Probably. Maybe. Maybe not.

              I don't think so. Bill Joy wrote rogue when he was a graduate student for Unix, some time in the mid 1970's.
              Double-flunk! See my correction below.

              Let me get this straight. First you dissed Romero, then you quoted him to support your position? Please, make up your mind first.
              I don't think I dissed him. Did I? G.O.D.'s failure was spectacular but that's just an observation. They did make some good games, and I actually have no quarrel with "design is law"--though I sort of think there should be bicameral situation with "reality is law" on the other side. :-)

              In any event, whatever his merits as designer, game company founder or human being, he certainly knows the influence of the original "Wolfenstein".

              So, yeah, he supports my position better than any speculation, given that he was, you know, there. I'm pretty sure Carmack's on record, too about the influence of old games.
              [ok]

              "I used to eat a lot of natural foods until I learned that most people die of natural causes. "

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              • #82
                [QUOTE] Originally posted by vovan
                1980 to be precise. And Bill Joy had nothing to do with it. He founded Sun, but didn't code Rogue. The thing was written by Ken Arnold, Michael Toy, and Glenn Wichman.

                Brief Rogue History by Glenn Wichman

                Correct!

                1980 is still before 1983, which is when "Beneath Apple Manor" was released, though, so you are correct there. 1983 is also when Rogue was ported to DOS...
                Incorrect!

                Beneath Apple Manor for the PC may have been released in 1983--but I was playing it on the Apple ][ in 1979. A friend of mine just spoke with the author who says it was released in 1978.

                It was the first rogue-like. And perhaps the first demonstration of the power of open source over tightly-controlled code.

                BAM would probably be famous and still extant in some form had it been developed in a more open environment, a la rogue.
                [ok]

                "I used to eat a lot of natural foods until I learned that most people die of natural causes. "

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                • #83
                  Beneath Apple Manor for the PC may have been released in 1983--but I was playing it on the Apple ][ in 1979. A friend of mine just spoke with the author who says it was released in 1978.


                  Indeed. How silly of me to find out the pre-DOS release year for Rogue, and not do the same for BAM.

                  A little googling turned up that the original was released in 1978, a reworked version was released in 1980, and in 1983 the reworked version was DOSed.
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                  • #84
                    Originally posted by okblacke
                    A friend of mine just spoke with the author who says it was released in 1978.
                    That would be pretty amazing, seeing that the Apple II came out in 1978.
                    (\__/) 07/07/1937 - Never forget
                    (='.'=) "Claims demand evidence; extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence." -- Carl Sagan
                    (")_(") "Starting the fire from within."

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                    • #85
                      That would be pretty amazing, seeing that the Apple II came out in 1978.
                      Noooot really.

                      Even if the Apple ][ had come out in 1978, BAM would've been doable in six months (or less). A buddy of mine who discovered the Apple ][ in 1979 had programmed over 100 games a year later. Little games, obviously, but at least one amounted to 160K worth of code/data. And he was 13.

                      All of which is moot, though, since the Apple ][ came out in 1977.

                      http://www.apple-history.com/
                      [ok]

                      "I used to eat a lot of natural foods until I learned that most people die of natural causes. "

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                      • #86
                        Originally posted by okblacke

                        All of which is moot, though, since the Apple ][ came out in 1977.

                        http://www.apple-history.com/
                        UR = pwned.

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