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Just some stuff between me and chrispie... lots of good stuff on how I'd like the Battle System to be about halfway through.
*** chrispie has joined #GGS
(chrispie) hey trip
(Trip`) hiya
(Trip`) glad you showed up
(chrispie) good to see a new guy in ggs, welcome
(Trip`) I tried talking to UberKrux, but I think he's away studying for a test
(Trip`) haha, yeah, thanks
(chrispie) I nearly forgot actually, just seen your post on apolyton lol
(Trip`) LoL
(Trip`) well, I came across the forum by accident, and was curious, so I decided to help
(chrispie) what you use to talk to him with? ICQ?
(Trip`) hopefully it ain't dead yet
(Trip`) AIM
(chrispie) that the AOL one?
(Trip`) yes
(chrispie) *cringes* lol
(Trip`) the one that Europeans refuse to use
(Trip`) hehe
(Trip`) yeah that one
(chrispie) hopefully, GGS isn't dead, though it's going through a baaad patch!
(Trip`) I can imagine
(Trip`) you're working on the GUI right?
(chrispie) yep, well have been for what feels like forever
(Trip`) haha, yeah I bet
(chrispie) you had chance to d/l it from my site yet?
(Trip`) things can get tedious after a while I know
(Trip`) yeah I got it a while ago
(Trip`) I tried downloading some other things off of the site, but the links are dead
(Trip`) (imagine that)
(chrispie) cool, it not work then? lol
(Trip`) the UI?
(chrispie) which site was you trying to d/l off?
(chrispie) yeah
(Trip`) ggstoc
(Trip`) I opened it up and saw "Connect" and got my hopes up
(Trip`) how dare you!
(Trip`)
(chrispie) oh hehe
(Trip`) who's all doing programming right now?
(Trip`) since it seems that's where the most work is necassary at this point
(Trip`) you, VetLegion, I know that much so far
(chrispie) mmm, well leland, but he's never got the time to code it seems
(Trip`) ahhhh
(chrispie) not seen him for a while, think he's had enough of me and my UI lol
(Trip`) LoL
(Trip`) yeah
(Trip`) he probably just wants you to get it done
(chrispie) he's a good designer though, comes up with good sound ideas for it
(chrispie) don't we all lol
(Trip`) hehe
(chrispie) my UI has been done about 12 times lol
(Trip`) I wish I could help with the programming right now
(Trip`) my C++ skills have receded in 2 years of no coding
(Trip`) brb real quick
(chrispie) ahh, would expect so
(chrispie) k
(Trip`) okay
(Trip`) yeah, I never learned how to use DirectX either
(chrispie) so, why no C++ for 2 years? I'd go mad lol
(Trip`) not much documentation on it
(Trip`) LoL, I've been busy with other things
(chrispie) bloody DX, nearly as bad as the win32 api
(Trip`) haha
(Trip`) yeah
(chrispie) we actually for now at least, use CDX, a set of wrapper classes for um DirectX sub 8
(Trip`) I'm going over my stuff again over the summer, so I should be able to do some of the coding later
(Trip`) cool
(Trip`) hopefully I'll be able to help before too long
(Trip`) I'm best as a designer at this point
(chrispie) well, we try and be as platform dependant as possible, so all you really need is some C++ skills, nothing else really
(Trip`) that's what I'm going to do for a living once I get my comp science degree
(chrispie) as a games designer or software designer?
(Trip`) game, of course
(chrispie) hehe, thought as much
(Trip`) yep
(Trip`) I've got about 20 pages of stuff for GGS right now
(chrispie) so, what sort of games you normally like? The ultimate game question - civ or quake? lol
(Trip`) being that we're still trying to complete the GUI I doubt we'll need much of it for a while though
(Trip`) Civ, of course!
(chrispie) cool
(Trip`) why do you think I'm here
(chrispie) good stuff hehe
(Trip`) yep
(Trip`) that and wargames is what I like
(Trip`) and RPGs
(chrispie) I think Empire Earth is extremely cool, you played it?
(Trip`) nope
(Trip`) when did it come out?
(chrispie) quite a while ago
(chrispie) it's pretty new though, it has the scope of Civ in a game like AOE
(Trip`) ahhhh
(Trip`) nice
(Trip`) I should try to look for it then
(Trip`) when's the last time someone's seen elmo?
(chrispie) it's worth it, obviously it's quite simple, but still good
(chrispie) hmm, I've not seen him in ages
(Trip`) yeah :\
(Trip`) isn't he doing the graphics too?
(chrispie) he's graphics are so cool too
(Trip`) guess so
(Trip`) that's a pity
(chrispie) too? lol you implying we have more than 1 artist?!?
(Trip`) we should try and get ahold of him
(chrispie) yeah, would be good if he was around again
(Trip`) haha, not really, I read the team list at the site
(Trip`) I'
(Trip`) erm
(Trip`) I'd like to talk to him about the game battle system
(chrispie) can you draw then? *hoping for a yes*
(Trip`) I have some great ideas for it, but I'd like to talk to him first
(Trip`) being that he did write up a model for it already
(Trip`) LoL... well, not really
(Trip`) not on the level of him or someone like snoopy
(Trip`) unfortuneatly
(chrispie) can you give me a brief idea of your ideas right now?
(Trip`) sure if you want
(Trip`) but, I'm not sure how brief I'll have to be
(chrispie) cool, I like to stick my nose in in every area
(Trip`) haha, me too
(Trip`) I just hope people don't think I'm trying to take over thigns
(Trip`) things
(chrispie) good, just the sort of person we need then
(Trip`) I just have some good ideas and need to be heard!
(chrispie) nooo, get stuck in, good for everyone
(chrispie) lol
(Trip`) LoL
(Trip`) the idea for using armies instead of units is much more realistic and a very good idea
(Trip`) there should also be "garrisons" for cities
(Trip`) troops that don't move from that location unless an army comes by and picks them up
(chrispie) ahh, yes that's a good idea
(Trip`) yep
(chrispie) like an internal army, for defense only?
(Trip`) that way you don't have to keep track of 20 armies unless you want to attack with them
(Trip`) pretty much, yes
(Trip`) it makes things more managable
(chrispie) yeah, good idea
(Trip`) armies should have a few attributes too
(Trip`) morale, like was already included, is important
(chrispie) so armies are only the things you move actually on the map, cool
(Trip`) once you beat the morale of an army down, they retreat
(Trip`) so high morale is good
(chrispie) yes
(Trip`) yep, that's about right
(Trip`) unless anyone has a better suggestion
(chrispie) you think we need thinkgs like attriction?
(Trip`) Organization is another stat that's very important with armies
(Trip`) hehe, I'm just getting to that I think
(chrispie) heh
(Trip`) okay, let me give you an example of a situation
(chrispie) k
(Trip`) say...
(Trip`) Napoleon and Massena have 2 armies... each with 40,000 troops
(Trip`) Kutusov for the Russians has a big army of 100,000 in between them
(Trip`) Massena holds a good defensive position, and waits for the Russians to attack him
(Trip`) he uses "Stand Defense" type of tactic, or whatever (basically one that's designed to stop the enmy at all costs)
(Trip`) and he barely wins the battle, but loses, say, 20,000 men
(Trip`) you'd think that would be a crushing victory for the Russians
(Trip`) but due to the big battle, their organization level goes down.... the lower the organization for an army, the less well it fights
(Trip`) for example, an army at organization of 50%, fights only at half strength
(chrispie) right
(Trip`) meanwhile, Napoleon comse in from behind (2x bonus to attack, or something), and comes with full organization (another 2x advantage)
(chrispie) that's a question of timescale though, guess it depends on how long we consider the gap between battles is
(Trip`) so in the end, it's like the Russians having 40,000 troops, and Napoleon having 80,000
(Trip`) yep
(Trip`) but we can still apply this system
(Trip`) that's 2 of the things I think are necassary
(chrispie) right, I agree, but it should only apply on a single tick/click/turn/tap or whatever we're calling them lol
(Trip`) attacks from behind/the side should have an advantage
(Trip`) and organization levels are very realistic and give smaller armies a chance to win
(Trip`) Organization goes down with ANY action... other than doing nothing
(Trip`) which makes sense
(chrispie) yes, very true, I think the size of an army isn't always an indication
(Trip`) after all, if you're marching 100,000 men across the landscape, you're not going to be able to keep them all in perfect line
(Trip`) things will just get worse
(chrispie) yes, and things like technology can reduce the organisational loss
(Trip`) yep
(Trip`) and I think somehow the system of supplying armies should be different
(chrispie) so, radio for example, would reduce it a lot
(Trip`) yep
(Trip`) good idea
(chrispie) yes, supply is a tricky one, any good ideas for that?
(Trip`) you build depots at certain cities, which helps make a line of supply for an army(s)
(Trip`) however, if you get cut off, the army shouldn't be destroyed
(chrispie) right
(Trip`) I remember reading that in Elmo's design, and I strongly disagree with it
(Trip`) Napoleon's armies RARELY ever had supply chains
(Trip`) they lived off of the land
(chrispie) yes, it's too simplistic, I agree
(Trip`) however, this reduces the production of that particular location
(Trip`) and it can support fewer troops later on
(chrispie) I'd be damn pissed off if I lost 300,000 troops because an army of 10,000 cut me off lol
(Trip`) LoL yep
(Trip`) I like the idea for diseases and stuff too
(Trip`) very realistic
(Trip`) the British Army in Spain...
(Trip`) lost about 40,000 men total
(chrispie) on supply lines, I wonder if depots just give supply to all armies within a certain range
(Trip`) 6,000 of that was from battle
(Trip`) 34,000 from disease and that kind of stuff
(chrispie) yes, that what I was thinking when I mentioned attritcion, disease is almost always the biggest killer
(Trip`) well, depots are only as good as what you have stored in them
(Trip`) that might be a LITTLE too complex to manage, but it's much more realistic than the other options
(Trip`) ala 1 horse resource allowing 100,000 horsemen in Civ III
(chrispie) yes, but we have to keep it's a easy to use, and simple as we can within limits, no-one wants to manage 20 depots plus their armies
(Trip`) you could have an option to "auto-supply all armies" or something
(chrispie) lol I don't know if I love or hate the res sys in civIII
(Trip`) and it will simply build depots where it needs to
(Trip`) and supply those depots with the resources they need from your storage automatically
(Trip`) unless, of course, they want to manually control it
(Trip`) another thing that should be implimented is the fact of how difficult it was to move, use, and organize troops
(Trip`) Napoleon (this time period allows a great view of war, IMO) had an army of 700,000 to invade Russia in 1812
(chrispie) you think we should make it hard to move ancient armies without say, a leader?
(Trip`) the huge battle of Borodino, he only had 130,000 AT the battle
(Trip`) yes
(chrispie) man, you're a box of stats! cool lol
(Trip`) leader's can improve their stats
(Trip`) LoL, yes
(Trip`) mostly about that time period though
(Trip`) before 1780 and I'm pretty ignorant
(Trip`) in games like Civ III
(chrispie) that's good, I agree, it's a good period for warfare, cos of battle tactics, but still being relatively transparent
(Trip`) its VERY easy to move troops around
(Trip`) your ENTIRE army could be present at a battle, and it was easy to gather them
(Trip`) in real life, that's IMPOSSIBLY difficult
(Trip`) only with modern technology these days is that possible to do
(Trip`) yep, Napoleonic Wars are my favorite time period in history
(chrispie) yes, but still a lot of history tends to be finely balanced on just one battle at one location, whereas civ tends to spread it over many many engagements
(Trip`) In Civ III, you just plop every rifleman you can find through rails, and boom... 120 riflemen (90% of your army) just POOF there it is
(Trip`) IMPOSSIBLE in reality
(Trip`) exactly
(Trip`) which is why the army system is very efficient and realistic
(chrispie) yes, I think warfare is very heavily dependant on location, in any time period
(Trip`) few people will think twice about pounding a cavalry unit into a fortified rifleman and wince too much
(chrispie) if you ain't there, you ain't gunna win lol
(Trip`) when you have your ENTIRE army facing off against his ENTIRE army, you want to make VERY sure you can win, and get every advantage you can
(Trip`) yep
(Trip`) it's all about manoever and getting the better position
(Trip`) battles were very rare
(chrispie) yep, I agree 100%
(Trip`) during the entire Napoleonic Wars, only about 8 major battles occured
(Trip`) and that's over 20 years of war too
(Trip`) that just goes to show
(Trip`) you don't just fling units into the fray
(chrispie) yes, but still we have to think how we can make that interesting
(Trip`) the leaders plan, move their armies, plan some more, move some more, then wheel around the side of their enemy, the enemy retreats, etc.
(Trip`) well I think the idea of using armies will make it interesting
(chrispie) we have to be careful that no advantage is given to lots of little armies though
(Trip`) after all, people will realize if their entire army on that front is present in that location, if they get cut off or the enemy gets an advantage in terrain, etc. they'll be pretty interested
(Trip`) after all, the army on that entire front could be crushed as a result of one mistake
(Trip`) which is why garrisons come into mind
(Trip`) Napoleon had 380,000 troops in Spain in 1810
(Trip`) they were all in garrison aside from 2 armies... 1 of about 40,000 men, and the other of about 50,000
(Trip`) the garrisons in many cities would hold off enemy armies until your armies would be able to arrive
(chrispie) what's interesting in warfare in reality, is that's it's not about "units" but more about men, and equipment, 2 very seperate notions
(Trip`) strong garrisons may weaken your major armies, but they strengthen your defense overall
(Trip`) yep
(Trip`) population of cities should defineatly be reduced after creation of military units
(Trip`) except, each unit in this game is ONE MAN
(Trip`) instead of whatever it is in Civ(s)
(chrispie) yes, considering the sheer size of any army
(Trip`) in other words
(Trip`) the battle system for this game should OWN the civ series
(Trip`) because of the engrossment and reality
(chrispie) yes
(Trip`) if your army gets cut off by a larger enemy army, and might be completely destroyed, you're going to be pretty involved
(Trip`) but
(chrispie) I like you ideas for a battle system
(Trip`) LoL thanks
(Trip`) that's why I'm going to be a game designer
(Trip`) I got lots and lots of ideas
(Trip`)
(chrispie) hehe best thing for a designer lol
(Trip`) yep
(Trip`) as I was saying, but, the thing is, this should NOT be solely a war game...
(Trip`) even Civ III, whose battle system I HATE was basically a wargame
(Trip`) not sure if you saw my post about this, but theres basically only a few things you're doing when not at war
(chrispie) yes, it's all about the war at the end of the day
(chrispie) though, as some person somewhere once said you either at war, or preparing for war, true for a lot of history it seems, unfortunatly
(Trip`) 1) cleaning up from a war 2) preparing for a war 3) cleaning up after one war while preparing for another 4) moving around 150 workers manually 5) adjusting science slider back and forth, and back, and forth, and back... and 6, the best one: telling the AI to get off your land and having it declare war on you! yay!
(chrispie) lol
(chrispie) man that's true
(Trip`) it is
(Trip`) hehe
(Trip`) Civ is pretty
(Trip`) but not very deep
(chrispie) my fav thing to do in any civ game is to try and build stuff, like at the start of industrialization, building RR's and factories, guess I'm just sad though
(Trip`) LoL
(chrispie) very true, but above all else, we need to give a REASON to do other things
(Trip`) my favorite thing to do is just crush the enemy
(chrispie) that's where civ fails I think, you only really have a REASON to fight
(chrispie) lol
(Trip`) but that's hard, since units are so scattered (ahem, I want my armies)
(Trip`) one unit slams into another, which slammed into by another, which is hit from the side by another one...
(Trip`) blah blah blah
(chrispie) I want armies too, I think we all do in GGS, so that will probably happen
(Trip`) it's very unrealistic
(Trip`) everything is so scattered
(Trip`) hooray
(Trip`)
(Trip`) I should start designing a battle model sometime
(Trip`) before my ideas leak out of my head :P
(chrispie) that would be good
(chrispie) lol these damn brain things, not a very effecient invention are they
(Trip`) LoL nope
(Trip`) have you read my diplomacy or politics models yet?
(chrispie) had a look through them, but I was tired, so I can't remember a single word of them! damn sory
(chrispie) sorry even
(Trip`) Lol
(Trip`) it's okay
(chrispie) I'm reading the dip one right moe
(chrispie) now! grr lol
(Trip`) LoL
(Trip`) I haven't started coming up with all of the actual commands yet
(Trip`) just ideas for what you should be able to do
(chrispie) can we call them agreements instead of contracts?
(Trip`) LoL
(Trip`) where is that?
(chrispie) in the dip stuff
(Trip`) I don't like the sound of contract :P
(chrispie) I like the idea of councils
(chrispie) lol
(Trip`) LoL
(Trip`) that part was adapted from whoever's DD was up at the site
(Trip`) I just pasted that in so it wouldn't be like I was making a new game :P
(chrispie) ohhh I see hehe
(chrispie) can see how much I take in from all this blurb can't you lol I do read most stuff honest :P
(Trip`) LoL oh yes
(Trip`) I'm going to try and contact elmo
(chrispie) I'll read the politics one right now
(chrispie) k, cool
(Trip`) I haven't seen amjayee or nath around recently though, and they said that they'd be around :P
(chrispie) what other messenger progs you use?
(Trip`) MSN Messenger, and AIM
(chrispie) think nath has had enough of us all lol
(Trip`) LoL
(chrispie) cool, I use MSN, I'm chrisf_b on that
(Trip`) okay
(Trip`) added you
(chrispie) cool, got you on mine now too
(Trip`) k
(chrispie) I hate MSN by the way lol, I hate most of these comm things
(Trip`) LoL
(Trip`) me too
(Trip`) but what else can you do :P
(chrispie) I know, we're stuck with the 2 big companies, one starts with micro...and the other ya...lol
(Trip`) LoL yes
(Trip`) we should make a new messenger program after we're done with GGS
(chrispie) lol if you're willing to pay for a mega server, I'll write a better one tonight
(Trip`) of course
(Trip`) !
(Trip`) I have unlimited funds!
(chrispie) lol great stuff!!!
(Trip`) those swiss bank accounts are great
(chrispie) haha
*** Trip` is now known as Trip[a]
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Session Close: Sat May 11 13:40:01 2002
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(chrispie) hey trip
(Trip`) hiya
(Trip`) glad you showed up
(chrispie) good to see a new guy in ggs, welcome
(Trip`) I tried talking to UberKrux, but I think he's away studying for a test
(Trip`) haha, yeah, thanks
(chrispie) I nearly forgot actually, just seen your post on apolyton lol
(Trip`) LoL
(Trip`) well, I came across the forum by accident, and was curious, so I decided to help
(chrispie) what you use to talk to him with? ICQ?
(Trip`) hopefully it ain't dead yet
(Trip`) AIM
(chrispie) that the AOL one?
(Trip`) yes
(chrispie) *cringes* lol
(Trip`) the one that Europeans refuse to use
(Trip`) hehe
(Trip`) yeah that one
(chrispie) hopefully, GGS isn't dead, though it's going through a baaad patch!
(Trip`) I can imagine
(Trip`) you're working on the GUI right?
(chrispie) yep, well have been for what feels like forever
(Trip`) haha, yeah I bet
(chrispie) you had chance to d/l it from my site yet?
(Trip`) things can get tedious after a while I know
(Trip`) yeah I got it a while ago
(Trip`) I tried downloading some other things off of the site, but the links are dead
(Trip`) (imagine that)
(chrispie) cool, it not work then? lol
(Trip`) the UI?
(chrispie) which site was you trying to d/l off?
(chrispie) yeah
(Trip`) ggstoc
(Trip`) I opened it up and saw "Connect" and got my hopes up
(Trip`) how dare you!
(Trip`)
(chrispie) oh hehe
(Trip`) who's all doing programming right now?
(Trip`) since it seems that's where the most work is necassary at this point
(Trip`) you, VetLegion, I know that much so far
(chrispie) mmm, well leland, but he's never got the time to code it seems
(Trip`) ahhhh
(chrispie) not seen him for a while, think he's had enough of me and my UI lol
(Trip`) LoL
(Trip`) yeah
(Trip`) he probably just wants you to get it done
(chrispie) he's a good designer though, comes up with good sound ideas for it
(chrispie) don't we all lol
(Trip`) hehe
(chrispie) my UI has been done about 12 times lol
(Trip`) I wish I could help with the programming right now
(Trip`) my C++ skills have receded in 2 years of no coding
(Trip`) brb real quick
(chrispie) ahh, would expect so
(chrispie) k
(Trip`) okay
(Trip`) yeah, I never learned how to use DirectX either
(chrispie) so, why no C++ for 2 years? I'd go mad lol
(Trip`) not much documentation on it
(Trip`) LoL, I've been busy with other things
(chrispie) bloody DX, nearly as bad as the win32 api
(Trip`) haha
(Trip`) yeah
(chrispie) we actually for now at least, use CDX, a set of wrapper classes for um DirectX sub 8
(Trip`) I'm going over my stuff again over the summer, so I should be able to do some of the coding later
(Trip`) cool
(Trip`) hopefully I'll be able to help before too long
(Trip`) I'm best as a designer at this point
(chrispie) well, we try and be as platform dependant as possible, so all you really need is some C++ skills, nothing else really
(Trip`) that's what I'm going to do for a living once I get my comp science degree
(chrispie) as a games designer or software designer?
(Trip`) game, of course
(chrispie) hehe, thought as much
(Trip`) yep
(Trip`) I've got about 20 pages of stuff for GGS right now
(chrispie) so, what sort of games you normally like? The ultimate game question - civ or quake? lol
(Trip`) being that we're still trying to complete the GUI I doubt we'll need much of it for a while though
(Trip`) Civ, of course!
(chrispie) cool
(Trip`) why do you think I'm here
(chrispie) good stuff hehe
(Trip`) yep
(Trip`) that and wargames is what I like
(Trip`) and RPGs
(chrispie) I think Empire Earth is extremely cool, you played it?
(Trip`) nope
(Trip`) when did it come out?
(chrispie) quite a while ago
(chrispie) it's pretty new though, it has the scope of Civ in a game like AOE
(Trip`) ahhhh
(Trip`) nice
(Trip`) I should try to look for it then
(Trip`) when's the last time someone's seen elmo?
(chrispie) it's worth it, obviously it's quite simple, but still good
(chrispie) hmm, I've not seen him in ages
(Trip`) yeah :\
(Trip`) isn't he doing the graphics too?
(chrispie) he's graphics are so cool too
(Trip`) guess so
(Trip`) that's a pity
(chrispie) too? lol you implying we have more than 1 artist?!?
(Trip`) we should try and get ahold of him
(chrispie) yeah, would be good if he was around again
(Trip`) haha, not really, I read the team list at the site
(Trip`) I'
(Trip`) erm
(Trip`) I'd like to talk to him about the game battle system
(chrispie) can you draw then? *hoping for a yes*
(Trip`) I have some great ideas for it, but I'd like to talk to him first
(Trip`) being that he did write up a model for it already
(Trip`) LoL... well, not really
(Trip`) not on the level of him or someone like snoopy
(Trip`) unfortuneatly
(chrispie) can you give me a brief idea of your ideas right now?
(Trip`) sure if you want
(Trip`) but, I'm not sure how brief I'll have to be
(chrispie) cool, I like to stick my nose in in every area
(Trip`) haha, me too
(Trip`) I just hope people don't think I'm trying to take over thigns
(Trip`) things
(chrispie) good, just the sort of person we need then
(Trip`) I just have some good ideas and need to be heard!
(chrispie) nooo, get stuck in, good for everyone
(chrispie) lol
(Trip`) LoL
(Trip`) the idea for using armies instead of units is much more realistic and a very good idea
(Trip`) there should also be "garrisons" for cities
(Trip`) troops that don't move from that location unless an army comes by and picks them up
(chrispie) ahh, yes that's a good idea
(Trip`) yep
(chrispie) like an internal army, for defense only?
(Trip`) that way you don't have to keep track of 20 armies unless you want to attack with them
(Trip`) pretty much, yes
(Trip`) it makes things more managable
(chrispie) yeah, good idea
(Trip`) armies should have a few attributes too
(Trip`) morale, like was already included, is important
(chrispie) so armies are only the things you move actually on the map, cool
(Trip`) once you beat the morale of an army down, they retreat
(Trip`) so high morale is good
(chrispie) yes
(Trip`) yep, that's about right
(Trip`) unless anyone has a better suggestion
(chrispie) you think we need thinkgs like attriction?
(Trip`) Organization is another stat that's very important with armies
(Trip`) hehe, I'm just getting to that I think
(chrispie) heh
(Trip`) okay, let me give you an example of a situation
(chrispie) k
(Trip`) say...
(Trip`) Napoleon and Massena have 2 armies... each with 40,000 troops
(Trip`) Kutusov for the Russians has a big army of 100,000 in between them
(Trip`) Massena holds a good defensive position, and waits for the Russians to attack him
(Trip`) he uses "Stand Defense" type of tactic, or whatever (basically one that's designed to stop the enmy at all costs)
(Trip`) and he barely wins the battle, but loses, say, 20,000 men
(Trip`) you'd think that would be a crushing victory for the Russians
(Trip`) but due to the big battle, their organization level goes down.... the lower the organization for an army, the less well it fights
(Trip`) for example, an army at organization of 50%, fights only at half strength
(chrispie) right
(Trip`) meanwhile, Napoleon comse in from behind (2x bonus to attack, or something), and comes with full organization (another 2x advantage)
(chrispie) that's a question of timescale though, guess it depends on how long we consider the gap between battles is
(Trip`) so in the end, it's like the Russians having 40,000 troops, and Napoleon having 80,000
(Trip`) yep
(Trip`) but we can still apply this system
(Trip`) that's 2 of the things I think are necassary
(chrispie) right, I agree, but it should only apply on a single tick/click/turn/tap or whatever we're calling them lol
(Trip`) attacks from behind/the side should have an advantage
(Trip`) and organization levels are very realistic and give smaller armies a chance to win
(Trip`) Organization goes down with ANY action... other than doing nothing
(Trip`) which makes sense
(chrispie) yes, very true, I think the size of an army isn't always an indication
(Trip`) after all, if you're marching 100,000 men across the landscape, you're not going to be able to keep them all in perfect line
(Trip`) things will just get worse
(chrispie) yes, and things like technology can reduce the organisational loss
(Trip`) yep
(Trip`) and I think somehow the system of supplying armies should be different
(chrispie) so, radio for example, would reduce it a lot
(Trip`) yep
(Trip`) good idea
(chrispie) yes, supply is a tricky one, any good ideas for that?
(Trip`) you build depots at certain cities, which helps make a line of supply for an army(s)
(Trip`) however, if you get cut off, the army shouldn't be destroyed
(chrispie) right
(Trip`) I remember reading that in Elmo's design, and I strongly disagree with it
(Trip`) Napoleon's armies RARELY ever had supply chains
(Trip`) they lived off of the land
(chrispie) yes, it's too simplistic, I agree
(Trip`) however, this reduces the production of that particular location
(Trip`) and it can support fewer troops later on
(chrispie) I'd be damn pissed off if I lost 300,000 troops because an army of 10,000 cut me off lol
(Trip`) LoL yep
(Trip`) I like the idea for diseases and stuff too
(Trip`) very realistic
(Trip`) the British Army in Spain...
(Trip`) lost about 40,000 men total
(chrispie) on supply lines, I wonder if depots just give supply to all armies within a certain range
(Trip`) 6,000 of that was from battle
(Trip`) 34,000 from disease and that kind of stuff
(chrispie) yes, that what I was thinking when I mentioned attritcion, disease is almost always the biggest killer
(Trip`) well, depots are only as good as what you have stored in them
(Trip`) that might be a LITTLE too complex to manage, but it's much more realistic than the other options
(Trip`) ala 1 horse resource allowing 100,000 horsemen in Civ III
(chrispie) yes, but we have to keep it's a easy to use, and simple as we can within limits, no-one wants to manage 20 depots plus their armies
(Trip`) you could have an option to "auto-supply all armies" or something
(chrispie) lol I don't know if I love or hate the res sys in civIII
(Trip`) and it will simply build depots where it needs to
(Trip`) and supply those depots with the resources they need from your storage automatically
(Trip`) unless, of course, they want to manually control it
(Trip`) another thing that should be implimented is the fact of how difficult it was to move, use, and organize troops
(Trip`) Napoleon (this time period allows a great view of war, IMO) had an army of 700,000 to invade Russia in 1812
(chrispie) you think we should make it hard to move ancient armies without say, a leader?
(Trip`) the huge battle of Borodino, he only had 130,000 AT the battle
(Trip`) yes
(chrispie) man, you're a box of stats! cool lol
(Trip`) leader's can improve their stats
(Trip`) LoL, yes
(Trip`) mostly about that time period though
(Trip`) before 1780 and I'm pretty ignorant
(Trip`) in games like Civ III
(chrispie) that's good, I agree, it's a good period for warfare, cos of battle tactics, but still being relatively transparent
(Trip`) its VERY easy to move troops around
(Trip`) your ENTIRE army could be present at a battle, and it was easy to gather them
(Trip`) in real life, that's IMPOSSIBLY difficult
(Trip`) only with modern technology these days is that possible to do
(Trip`) yep, Napoleonic Wars are my favorite time period in history
(chrispie) yes, but still a lot of history tends to be finely balanced on just one battle at one location, whereas civ tends to spread it over many many engagements
(Trip`) In Civ III, you just plop every rifleman you can find through rails, and boom... 120 riflemen (90% of your army) just POOF there it is
(Trip`) IMPOSSIBLE in reality
(Trip`) exactly
(Trip`) which is why the army system is very efficient and realistic
(chrispie) yes, I think warfare is very heavily dependant on location, in any time period
(Trip`) few people will think twice about pounding a cavalry unit into a fortified rifleman and wince too much
(chrispie) if you ain't there, you ain't gunna win lol
(Trip`) when you have your ENTIRE army facing off against his ENTIRE army, you want to make VERY sure you can win, and get every advantage you can
(Trip`) yep
(Trip`) it's all about manoever and getting the better position
(Trip`) battles were very rare
(chrispie) yep, I agree 100%
(Trip`) during the entire Napoleonic Wars, only about 8 major battles occured
(Trip`) and that's over 20 years of war too
(Trip`) that just goes to show
(Trip`) you don't just fling units into the fray
(chrispie) yes, but still we have to think how we can make that interesting
(Trip`) the leaders plan, move their armies, plan some more, move some more, then wheel around the side of their enemy, the enemy retreats, etc.
(Trip`) well I think the idea of using armies will make it interesting
(chrispie) we have to be careful that no advantage is given to lots of little armies though
(Trip`) after all, people will realize if their entire army on that front is present in that location, if they get cut off or the enemy gets an advantage in terrain, etc. they'll be pretty interested
(Trip`) after all, the army on that entire front could be crushed as a result of one mistake
(Trip`) which is why garrisons come into mind
(Trip`) Napoleon had 380,000 troops in Spain in 1810
(Trip`) they were all in garrison aside from 2 armies... 1 of about 40,000 men, and the other of about 50,000
(Trip`) the garrisons in many cities would hold off enemy armies until your armies would be able to arrive
(chrispie) what's interesting in warfare in reality, is that's it's not about "units" but more about men, and equipment, 2 very seperate notions
(Trip`) strong garrisons may weaken your major armies, but they strengthen your defense overall
(Trip`) yep
(Trip`) population of cities should defineatly be reduced after creation of military units
(Trip`) except, each unit in this game is ONE MAN
(Trip`) instead of whatever it is in Civ(s)
(chrispie) yes, considering the sheer size of any army
(Trip`) in other words
(Trip`) the battle system for this game should OWN the civ series
(Trip`) because of the engrossment and reality
(chrispie) yes
(Trip`) if your army gets cut off by a larger enemy army, and might be completely destroyed, you're going to be pretty involved
(Trip`) but
(chrispie) I like you ideas for a battle system
(Trip`) LoL thanks
(Trip`) that's why I'm going to be a game designer
(Trip`) I got lots and lots of ideas
(Trip`)
(chrispie) hehe best thing for a designer lol
(Trip`) yep
(Trip`) as I was saying, but, the thing is, this should NOT be solely a war game...
(Trip`) even Civ III, whose battle system I HATE was basically a wargame
(Trip`) not sure if you saw my post about this, but theres basically only a few things you're doing when not at war
(chrispie) yes, it's all about the war at the end of the day
(chrispie) though, as some person somewhere once said you either at war, or preparing for war, true for a lot of history it seems, unfortunatly
(Trip`) 1) cleaning up from a war 2) preparing for a war 3) cleaning up after one war while preparing for another 4) moving around 150 workers manually 5) adjusting science slider back and forth, and back, and forth, and back... and 6, the best one: telling the AI to get off your land and having it declare war on you! yay!
(chrispie) lol
(chrispie) man that's true
(Trip`) it is
(Trip`) hehe
(Trip`) Civ is pretty
(Trip`) but not very deep
(chrispie) my fav thing to do in any civ game is to try and build stuff, like at the start of industrialization, building RR's and factories, guess I'm just sad though
(Trip`) LoL
(chrispie) very true, but above all else, we need to give a REASON to do other things
(Trip`) my favorite thing to do is just crush the enemy
(chrispie) that's where civ fails I think, you only really have a REASON to fight
(chrispie) lol
(Trip`) but that's hard, since units are so scattered (ahem, I want my armies
)(Trip`) one unit slams into another, which slammed into by another, which is hit from the side by another one...
(Trip`) blah blah blah
(chrispie) I want armies too, I think we all do in GGS, so that will probably happen
(Trip`) it's very unrealistic
(Trip`) everything is so scattered
(Trip`) hooray
(Trip`)
(Trip`) I should start designing a battle model sometime
(Trip`) before my ideas leak out of my head :P
(chrispie) that would be good
(chrispie) lol these damn brain things, not a very effecient invention are they
(Trip`) LoL nope
(Trip`) have you read my diplomacy or politics models yet?
(chrispie) had a look through them, but I was tired, so I can't remember a single word of them! damn sory
(chrispie) sorry even
(Trip`) Lol
(Trip`) it's okay
(chrispie) I'm reading the dip one right moe
(chrispie) now! grr lol
(Trip`) LoL
(Trip`) I haven't started coming up with all of the actual commands yet
(Trip`) just ideas for what you should be able to do
(chrispie) can we call them agreements instead of contracts?
(Trip`) LoL
(Trip`) where is that?
(chrispie) in the dip stuff
(Trip`) I don't like the sound of contract :P
(chrispie) I like the idea of councils
(chrispie) lol
(Trip`) LoL
(Trip`) that part was adapted from whoever's DD was up at the site
(Trip`) I just pasted that in so it wouldn't be like I was making a new game :P
(chrispie) ohhh I see hehe
(chrispie) can see how much I take in from all this blurb can't you lol I do read most stuff honest :P
(Trip`) LoL oh yes
(Trip`) I'm going to try and contact elmo
(chrispie) I'll read the politics one right now
(chrispie) k, cool
(Trip`) I haven't seen amjayee or nath around recently though, and they said that they'd be around :P
(chrispie) what other messenger progs you use?
(Trip`) MSN Messenger, and AIM
(chrispie) think nath has had enough of us all lol
(Trip`) LoL
(chrispie) cool, I use MSN, I'm chrisf_b on that
(Trip`) okay
(Trip`) added you
(chrispie) cool, got you on mine now too
(Trip`) k
(chrispie) I hate MSN by the way lol, I hate most of these comm things
(Trip`) LoL
(Trip`) me too
(Trip`) but what else can you do :P
(chrispie) I know, we're stuck with the 2 big companies, one starts with micro...and the other ya...lol
(Trip`) LoL yes
(Trip`) we should make a new messenger program after we're done with GGS
(chrispie) lol if you're willing to pay for a mega server, I'll write a better one tonight
(Trip`) of course
(Trip`) !
(Trip`) I have unlimited funds!
(chrispie) lol great stuff!!!
(Trip`) those swiss bank accounts are great
(chrispie) haha
*** Trip` is now known as Trip[a]
*** chrispie has left #GGS
Session Close: Sat May 11 13:40:01 2002