DIPLOMACY (ver2.0): Hosted by Jeje2

[Jimmy]

It would allow for custom treaties similar to what we can do with the social engineering screen or the design workshop rather. All peace treaties would not be the same.

[Jimmy]

more like the social engineering screen actually.

[Jimmy]

At the line on article 3, it should read "military alliance" not "military research". Sorry.

[Zakalwe]

I think the development of international diplomacy should be better represented in Civ3 than presently is the case in both Civ2 and SMAC. Even in SMAC, there are only two avenues for diplomacy: bilateral communications or the UN Council.

The current Civ2 system works OK for the ancient and medieval eras. Of course, if religion is included in detail, there should be provision for councils like the Council of Nicaea (325).

In modern age, as foreign policy becomes a real art, international diplomacy enters a new stage. Multinational congresses (Congress of Westphalia (1644), the Congress of Vienna (1815) etc.) can now be convened to negotiate peace treaties involving several participants. Not all civilizations could take part, however. Only those directly involved in the disputes, or civilizationse so powerful that they cannot be ignored in any multinational dealings could take part.

The next stage would be the creation of a permanent multinational organisation. Historically, the League of Nations (1919-40) was the first one, preceding the United Nations.

International congresses could be convened any time after the discovery of 'International Law'.

Alternatively (though I'm not too fond of the idea), there could be a WoW enabling congresses, giving the builder of the WoW extra votes, power to break ties, or the ability to take part in any congress, regardless of wheter it involves the civ. The wonder could be called "Hugo Grotius' De Jure Belli ac Pacis".

The congresses could vote on peace settlements, paying of compensations, rights of access (e.g. the Turkish Straits), and the ceding of provinces (cities) to different parties. If one of the participants refuses to honor the agreement, any/all other participants can declare war on the dissenting party without incurring reputation penalties.

Congresses could also be convened to discuss arms and naval limitations. As an example, three of the major naval powers of the world could sign a treaty forbidding the building of more than 10 battleships. Treaties could also be made about the use of chemical weapons etc.

The transition from the Age of Congresses to the era of the UN wopuld occur upon the building of the UN WoW. The owner of the wonder could have a veto on all decisions, unless voted down by an unanimous vote.

The UN could discuss global issues such as: Trade and environmental agreements, border disputes, international projects (space exploration), and of course peace treaties.


Zakalwe


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"Ambitions that fall sort of their aim have all along helped produce excellent histories" - Ernst Breisach, Historiography

[loinburger]

Borders should be able to be rigidly defined by treaties and such. This would allow you to get yourself an ally and still be certain that he's not going to start encroaching on your territory. It always annoys me when I give an ally troops and tech so he can fight my wars for me, and then he starts expanding right into MY TERRITORY! Then I've got to go and declare war on him in order to get that territory back simply because I couldn't negotiate a border with my ally previously.

[Mo]

I think the veto power would give to much power to one civ. In Alpha Centauri the veto power was limited in power since there were only 6 other civs to bribe or convince to join your cause. But it has been discussed about having over 20 civs which is far to many to realistically overturn a veto because all of them must agree.

[master k]

I dont know if it has been already mentioned,
but i would like to have the possebillity to ban nuclear weapons, some kind of SALT (strategic arms limitation talks).
after the majority acceppted, all nuclear weapons will ba destroyed.

master k

[Iceman88888888]

I like the idea Theben Mission would be great but make them sooooooo complex. Like near the end of the game have 20-30 option for spies. Here is some I can think of. (note: when I say spies I dont just mean Spies it could also be hackers, diplos, terrorist, Navy SEALs etc.)
1: Propoganda- Replace the need for a propagandist unit
2: Steal Tech- The old Classic Spy theme
3: Assasinate- Assasinate the leader
4: Preach- If religions is included
5: Recon- Check out military bases
6: Steal Money
7: Create MOLE- One of my favourate idea's. Maybe you could send a person into their political system and maybe 10 years time the person could be an important Polotican, army commander etc.
8: NUKE CITY- Nead I say more?
9: Blow up stuff: Navy SEAL's could blow up a barraks or a shipyard etc.
10: Sue- Drain the Fedral Budget
11:Create Embassy: An easy one.
12: Create havoc: Blow up watersource, electricity etc. This might kill production
13: Direct Sabatage- You know, A tank Unit is in town, so a bunch of spies steal all their tracks?
14: Suppliy Crims- Some F.B.I agents thought that the germans where helping to fund the mafia in Chicago in the 30's ......
15: Support Revolutions, So there is unrest, Give them guns
16: ?????- I cant remember the name for this but send an agent to "sell" secrets to the enemys which happens to be lies. Kinda like a tripple agent
17: Recuruit Duoble agents- High risk factor of getting tripple agents though- See above
18: Join a paper- Especialy in Democratic societys, the media can cripple the goverment-
Thats all I can think of right now- Note: You should always be able to see their city view. Its not like the ruskis sent over a spy every time they wanted to see what New York looked like... Try Tourism or Books or Travel Guids or the Net....
The leaders should be able to organise "visits" to other countries to improve relations at a higher risk of assasination...
Will post later

[Theben]

Maybe with combining all the possible missions (diplomatic/espionage/special forces/computer spying). I'm glad somebody posted some ideas for missions. Now how to implement:

1-Propaganda: What should it do? I suggest it moves their people vs. your people &/or ruler to better relations, or worsens relations between their people vs. someone else (their ruler, another civ's ruler or people).

2-Steal Tech: If it is a military or high-level science-applied tech, stealing this and getting caught may be an act of war. Other techs, such as social or economic types (kinds that can be observed in use in regular society, the types people have said should be able to transfer between peaceful empires w/o espionage or conquest) may be stolen with greater ease and if caught the penalty is much less; no auto war, just a slight diplomatic penalty.

3-Assassinate: More characters to assassinate. Rulers, scientists, religious leaders, military leader units, local governors, counter-espionage teams, etc.

4-Basically propaganda, yes?

6,10-Also the same?

7-If you are successful, you may have access to new techs, cause religious or social dissent, lower overall economic output or funnel some to you, knowledge of their mapping and maybe contacts of other civs; more?

8-For this you should be required to pay some production for the nuke, in all fairness. Certain missions should require production.

9,12,13-All the same I think. But the option to sabotage units should be available even if they are in a city, or bases if under a unit. Also see "structure damage" in CITY IMPROVEMENTS, OTHER threads.

14- Effect is to increase corruption?

15- This should also need production. The effect is to create "partisans" in their territory loyal to you! The # of partisans should be based on the overall happiness of the target civ (& perhaps their values).

16-Create misinformation: This could be a random result of successful counter-espionage. Maps gained thru spying may be inaccurate, techs are useless and cause you to have to spend extra research to make up for it, your loyal governors are "discovered" to be "disloyal", etc.

17-Like create mole (#7), except that counter-espionage teams are the target. Reduces effectiveness of counter-espionage.

18-More propaganda.

Thanks Iceman! Any other ideas from anyone?
<font size=1 face=Arial color=444444>[This message has been edited by Theben (edited July 27, 1999).]</font>

[Flavor Dave]

"6: Steal Money"

Ummm, since we're talking an espionage budget, this won't make any sense. I mean, if you could use 100G of your espionage budget to steal 200G, then you'd have 200G to steal 400G, then you could steal 800G, etc. You'd have an unbeatable loop; you'd bankrupt everyone else--as long as you're the white civ and go first;-)

Or the opposite--it would cost 100G to steal 50G.

[Theben]

Harel,
Even if you did post this before it's good to have it readily available. Also nice to see some diplomatic possibilities due to espionage. More results of counter-espionage should also be posted. And how should counter-E work? Should it be per city or a flat fee that covers your empire?

Flav Dave,

It depends on what you want to accomplish. Maybe you don't need the money but you want to take it away from the enemy. And in all cases spy missions are no longer automatically successful, EVER. So costs can be balanced.

[Mo]

1. Destroying supplys/supply depot would slightly damage units in the field by cutting off their support. Since support is probably going to be empire based it would affect the units who are nearst to that city.

2Stealing money:
I would suggest that the best you can get is double the money you invest or you can get 1 and a half of what you invested or break even or lose all. The probabilities would just have to be balenced. I think Alpha Centauri had the option to steal energy, but it was pretty useless because you were never able to steal more than 10 or 15 energy at a time.

[Harel]

Jele2, pls, try to re-orginze the summary in some other modes... i find it very hard to pin-point.

Well, here are my offers ( I am sure I allready posted this ):

1. Be able to demand to stop spying.
2. Be able to complain about current events:
"The roman file a formal complain against the greek cause of spying.".
The cause of formal complaint are:
Spying, on you or someone else.
Use of forbidden weapons.
Other side conquered a city.
Attack on trade routes.
3. Side A can ask side B to file a complaint against side C.
4. Have two new treaties: funded research and funded construction. You pay side A. The money goes directly to science taxation. All research is shared.
Construction treaty is when you pay for the other side to build items for you ( a bigger empire pays a smaller, more technoligical advance civ which can build faster, for example ).

[Iceman88888888]

Theben-
6 and 10 are not the same although they have the same purpose, If you got caught stealing the spy would be jailed, but (as much as some would like to) you cant jail a lawyer for his case.
9-12-13. I agree they are very similiar but not altogether the same. 9 could be only for buildings and would be dangerous, 12 would consist of blowing up power, watcourse schools etc. This would be an atrocity.
13- Only for units- Dangerous
14- Yes for increesed corruption
4, 18- Propoganda yes but of different types
4- Could be aimed at the Religious society
18- Aimed at the poloticans
I agree that nukes and partisans should cost production but the partisans should just look like Barbarians to the other civ, Evan though you are controling them
A NEW ONE
19- Join the Army- The spy could join the army and 5 years later might be in charge of a unit and try to get them to rebel. This is esseentialy the same as creating a mole but is more aimed at the military. If the contry was poor you might convince them with money food etc.
THNXS Theben for pointing those out !!!

[loinburger]

Iceman + Flavor Dave:
For #6: Steal Money, perhaps this could be replaced by
#6: Cause Corruption (through bribing officials, etc.) which would cause a percentage increase in corruption throughout the enemy Civ, essentially decreasing their cash reserves (as well as wastage in luxuries and research). And, the infinite loop would be avoided.

BUT: does this mean that Cause Corruption wouldn't work for Democracies? I'm hoping that this won't be a problem, because from looking at the SE thread it appears that instead of Democracy = No Corruption the system used would be Democracy = +6 Corruption (or whatever) ala SMAC. So Democracies would still suffer from corruption and be threatened by "cause corruption" actions.


On another topic: Non-agression pacts and borders. I've previously suggested that you be able to set a border with another Civ so that they won't go expanding into your territory. These pre-set borders could also serve a crucial purpose in Non-Aggression pacts (like the classic "I take half of Poland, you take the other half, and then we leave each other alone). You and your Non-Aggression buddy decide ahead of time who gets what of the poor victimized Civ.