RELIGION 2.1 (Hosted by Stefu)

[Stefu]

Boys, boys, boys. Yes, iam am Stefu WAS me. I had a miniscule password problem.

However, I wasn't at full sanity when I wrote that.

I haven't glanced at this thread for a while, I know, and when I saw those models they just reminded me of summaries. I got angry. Are these boys trying to steal my work?

And I am revamping summary format and working on it every day - I will post it around in a week.

[raingoon]

To All

I applaud Stefu's obvious effort in his summary which was privately distributed. After reading over it, a couple points seem obvious.

First, this summary of the version 1 and version 2 "wish list discussions" presents all ideas at one time, weighing them each equally. There appears to be no evolution of ideas, which negates the "living document" Brian Reynolds was asking for.

Second, as a result of being all-inclusive, ideas that were voted out earlier have been unnecessarily included.

There is no need to summarize the core religion thread model that has evolved, since the thing itself is quite brief and explicit and represents about 130 posts already.

M@ni@c, Mbrazier -- Will has a version of the model that tries to state everyone's differing viewpoints. I've read it and only suggested he change the format to conform to Yin's style guidelines for the wish list. Once you two have amended it to your satisfaction, I suggest we post it here and at Firaxis, and submit it to Stefu to include with his summary and submit to Yin.

Stefu, I think you've already come so far in summarizing all the Apolyton religion thread discussions, it would be wrong of me to take your place. Instead, I suggest you follow Will's suggestion (also privately mailed) to combine the model we've made with an edited version of your summary. If you still feel you want to pass the torch, I'm willing to step in if others agree to that.

But, I really suggest you simply edit out anything relating to the model in your current summary, and instead include the model itself -- It wouldn't make the summary any longer than it currently is, and the summary would then be clear, all-inclusive, and give a sense of how the debate evolved over time. This would conform to the "living document" Brian Reynolds was looking for, I'm certain. Truly, the model we're giving you owes MUCH to all the ideas that came before. It should not be boiled down, or disseminated further. Stefu, if you keep your presentation of all the other viewpoints, you'll in good shape if you just paste the model Will and M@ni@c and Mbrazier are preparing into your summary.

P.S., And no hard feelings about earlier posts. You've done a yeoman's job.

[Maniac]

Please, don't include all our old ideas, Stefu. You have included all the ideas we abandoned for ages. The most clear example is the SE category with my previous choices.
There's no hair on my head anymore that thinks of giving religions, even if it are general things like Strict/Loose Mono/Polytheism, factors or effects.
Ignore all my posts from the time I wasn't working on Raingoon's model.

There are many more outdated examples and I don't have the time to say them all here.

BTW, due to serious time lack I haven't posted here the last few days. Just want to say that Will's tithing is good to me.
One less point of arguement.

And actually, I must admit I don't like the way our model is cut in pieces. Just pick one of the three Will-M@ni@c-MBrazier drafts, compare the (now already have become rare) differences and edit the draft on that places = include one more option.
Voilà, you got a summary of 75% of the Religion thread.
And I'm absolutely not trying to take off your work, Stefu. I only think that the model is best seen in it's original state, as we like it.

URGENT! URGENT!

I can't open that document of Will. And I desperately want to read it. Please post it here or e-mail it.

[raingoon]

M@ni@c

Following is Will's document sent privately, (posted without asking his permission first). But in the interest of moving forward...


14. A Comprehensive Model
Several posters believe that religion is best understood not as a list of suggestions, but as a group of interelated rules. They have combined many suggestions from the posters on the religion thread into a single model that attempts to balance religion against other concepts in the game. Raingoon, Will, M@ni@c, and MBrazier have been the main participants in this effort, but they recognize their indebtedness to the other commenters. In the following outline, all proposals are the consensus of this group, unless indicated by a bracketed note.

I. Religion in Civ3

A. Why have it?

Religion is a fundamental force driving civilizations. The effects of religion permeate the history of nations, their borders, their wars and their treaties. Your ability to direct religion's impact is likewise varied. For the first time you will be able to identify your citizens individually by their beliefs, track the rise and fall of major religions, and affect the social mechanics that make your civilization grow and evolve over the centuries.

B. Defined.

Religion is a game element comparable to trade. Where trade deals with resources, religion deals with population.

1. Religions are synonymous with citizens; each citizen has the ability to belong to one religion.
2. Each city is represented on the game map by the religion practiced by the majority of its citizens.
3. Each religion shall have its own symbol.
4. No religion has greater or less numerical values than any other. This makes sure that real-world religions can be used without legal problems. However MBrazier still wants that each religion has a different Evangelism and Conviction.
5. Religion names can be edited by the player, thus Firaxis can choose to set the the AI to default to historical religions, defunct religions, or fictional religions, or whatever they deem most appropriate. The player could have the start-up option of choosing which religion "brands" he/she wanted in the game.
6. At any time, there can be up to three more religions than there are civs. If there are ever four more than X civs, the smallest religion shall be eliminated and its members given to the second smallest religion.
7. Religions are visible in the game in four ways:
a. In the city screen by each member of the population holding a flag with its religious symbol on it. When the population gets too large for this to work, there will be a separate graphic showing the number of each citizen adhering to the religion.
b. On the main map you will see the current religious borders of the world, as determined by cities, by filtering for it (e.g., hitting F1 key).
c. Cleric units visually represent both a specific civ (color) and a specific religion (symbol).
d. On the main map, the symbol of the majority religion appears on the city flag next to the number of citizens.
II. Religion Concepts
A. Origins

Once civs have had time to establish a foothold, prophets begin to appear. Religions spread immediately thereafter. New religions will appear through the centuries, some never growing more than a city or two, others becoming recognized world religions. Some that are eradicated will never be heard of again; others might enjoy a revival two thousand years later.

1. Prophets

a. All civs begin pagan (citizens are non-aligned) and will experience the emergence of at least one prophet beginning with the second millenium of the game, but not before the discovery of religion.
b. A prophet is not a unit, but rather a newly born citizen in a given city's population window, identified by his/her new religious symbol, with higher conversion values (20 evangelism, 25 conviction) than regular citizens (see conversion, below, for explanation of conversion values).
c. After their appearance prophets last for X turns, where X is randomly chosen from between 15 and 30, then convert back into regular citizens; their religious symbol remains.
d. After the prophet disappears from a city, the remaining citizens continue to benefit from the prophet's greater conversion values for 20 more turns. This is to ensure fledgling religions will have a chance to develop.
e. Prophets can appear at any time during the game.
f. Turywenzism begins with an announcement such as: "Turywenzo has begun preaching in Turygrad."
g. Prophets can appear in any city.
h. Upon appearing, prophets instantly convert one citizen (other than themselves, of course); after that, conversion proceeds under the normal rules for citizen to citizen conversions (see, below).
i. If a government persecutes the new religion while the prophet is preaching, the prophet is considered martyred, the prophet disappears, leaving behind his/her bonus as described in rule "d" above, and all non-aligned citizens within 8 squares immediately convert to the new religion.
j. A religion can re-appear with a new prophet only after its religion has previously been eradicated.

B. Conversion

Each religion is incompatible with all others. Whenever two religions overlap "zones of influence," each will seek to dominate the other. The AI will handle the calculations, and keep track of the results. New conversions are noted in the population window of the appropriate city.

1. Evangelism
a. All citizen units in the population window have evangelism values.
b. Evangelism is the "attack" value of a religion.
c. All religions begin with the same base evangelism value, 10.

2. Conviction
a. All citizen units in the population window have conviction values.
b. Conviction is the "defense" value of a religion.
c. All religions begin with the same base conviction value, 15.

The higher conviction rating is so that, all things being equal, citizens should
successfully defend against conversion attempts about 60% of the time.

3. Adjusting Conversion Ratings
You can increase (or in some cases decrease) your citizens' conversion ratings by:

• donating money to a specific religion
• declaring a state religion
• hosting a holy city
• building a city improvement
• building a Wonder
• discovering a technological advance
• setting your civ's attitudes towards religion in the religion screen
• 4 like believers in one city increases each believer's values by .25; thus, a 4 stack of 4 Yahoos at 10 evangelism each is worth 50.
• declaring religious freedom
• having a positive or negative SE Nationalism rate (see the SE thread).
• establishing a mission.

4. Passive Conversions

• Calculations are made by "stacking" citizens together by religion and combining their values.
• Passive conversions reflect the influence of the citizens in a city on their fellow citizens and the proportionately weaker influence of citizens in nearby cities.
• Passive conversions are calculated, on average, every five turns. The computer will randomize the interval between passive conversions so that players cannot boost evangelism/conviction factors the year before a scheduled passive conversion.
• Possible formula for calculating passive conversion:
  

  The Evangelism (Conviction) of a religion within a city is the sum of: the Evan(Conv) of each member in the city; plus (1 - dist/10) * Evan(Conv) of each member of that religion in a city less than 10 squares away; plus 1/2 * Evan(Conv) of each member of that religion in a city that has a mission to the city. If a religion has no members in a city, it is not attacked by other stacks.

• Once the evangelism and conviction factors are calculated, the results are calculated like a battle between units of equal strength. If the evangelizing side wins, one citizen of the opposing religion is converted.

A sample conversion turn within a city:

4 Turywenzists in London start with an evangelist factor of 10. England has Turywenzism as the state religion (+0.2 modifier) which increases each Turywenzists citizen's base evangelism value to 12. The city of London has a cathedral (+.10 modifier = 13). This gives each Turywenzist in London an evangelist factor of 13. And 4 of its citizens are Turywenzists (+.25 modifier each)., for a combined stack evangelism value of 65. This factor is calculated against the conviction ratings of the 2 Londoners who are Yahoos who receive none of the modifiers, but whose higher conviction ratings nevertheless combine to equal 30, increasing the odds they won't capitulate in one turn. When the calculation is reversed, there is an even smaller chance the Yahoos combined evangelism rating of 20 will have any effect at all on the Turywenzist stack's combined conviction rating after all the modifiers have been figured in.

For more discussion of modifiers and the religion screen, see section III below, "Effects of Religion."

For every successful conversion, one unit in the defending religion stack converts.

5. Active Conversions - "Missions"

a. Missions established by a player

• A civilization with a "state religion" (see section III for definition) may build a Cleric unit of the state religion. A cleric resembles a caravan unit; it cannot attack and ignores ZOC. When it enters a city it founds a mission from the state religion and disappears (just as a caravan creates a trade route and disappears.) Each city may only contain 3 missions.
• the player may only establish missions outside his/her civ. The religion-AI may establish them everywhere (see below).
• a mission brings the foreign city into the home city's zone of influence; the foreign city is now treated as if it resided 4 tiles away from the home city and follows the rules for city to city conversions until the mission is de-established.
• A mission converts one citizen when first founded automatically, and increases the Conviction rating for citizens of its religion by 50% of the base value as long as it remains in existence.
• clerics disappear after they have established one mission.
• like trade routes, missions are always successfully established.
• like diplomats, clerics may be destroyed or expelled en route.
• If the last remaining member of a religion in a city is converted away, any mission from that religion in the city is immediately disbanded and removed. This, and the destruction of the city, are the only things that can destroy a mission once founded.

b. Missions established by the religion

• The religion may send clerics from any city to any city; it ignores civ
  borders entirely. It prefers to start clerics from the city where its members'
  total Evangelism is highest, and send them to the city where its members' total
  Conviction is lowest. It also prefers to minimize the distance the cleric must
  travel. (The relative importance of these three preferences is not obvious.)
• In all other respects religion-owned clerics act like civ-owned ones.
• [Will and MBrazier would add the following point: The cleric referenced in this section is generated by a religion when the religion has accumulated X+D gold (where X is the total number of believers of that religion throughout the world, and D is a configuable parameter).]

6. Population growth expands religions

a. In the case of new citizens being born, the percentage chance they would be born believing in religion X, Y, or Z would be equal to the percentage that religion X, Y, and Z were represented within that city.

C. Tithing

Gold pieces are what religions use to fund missions, their most powerful tool for expansion.

1. Religious coffers are tracked by the AI.
2. The amount of gold a religion has can be seen in the religion screen, and only if that religion has a holy city (see Diplomacy, below).
Each turn, every city tithes one gold per religion represented, to the respective religion's coffers. 3. Under religious freedom: Each turn, every city tithes one gold per religion represented, to the respective religions coffers. This comes from the trade stream. To avoid making the burden too great, tithes are subtracted before the corruption calculation. (Since even a cad would hesitate to steal from the church.) In addition, the civs would no longer pay upkeep for religious improvements. Instead, the upkeep fees for all religious improvements are subtracted from the treasuries of the religions, with each religion paying a proportion of the total upkeep proportionate to its share of the civ's population. [M@ni@c suggests instead that all religious gold is understood to have come from "under citizen mattresses," and not from the government coffers; it does not come from the trade stream.]
4. Under a state religion: The tithe paid by the government is automatically sent into that religion's coffers; the city tithe from religious freedom is disabled. [M@ni@c suggests in addition that, under a state religion, the religion continues to receive the city tithe from religious freedom.]

2. Donations : Religions will ask for donations periodically. However, you are totally free to neglect their wish.

3. Under a state religion, as an addition to point 1, the tithe paid by the government (20% of taxes) is automatically sent into that state religion's coffers.

4. When a religion has built missions in all available cities it continues to collect tithes and build its coffers.

5. A religion can loan gold to a civ (see Diplomacy, holy cities, below).

III. Effects of religion

The player will have several options with regard to each religion. He or she may choose to establish a state religion or allow religious freedom. Regardless of whether there is religious freedom or an state religion, the player may choose to persecute one or more religions.

A. Under religious freedom

1. Effect on happiness, using current system.

a. For each religion in a city, one unhappy citizen becomes content or, if there are no unhappy citizens, a content citizen becomes happy. This effect continues indefinitely, so that each religion present in a city adds step to the base happiness level of the city. [MBrazier suggests instead that one unhappy becomes content, or one content becomes happy.]
b. To keep religion from having too great a benefit, the happiness effects described in a. will apply to no more than one out of every four citizens in a city. That is, if there are seven citizens and three religions, only two citizens may be made happy. So the effects are rounded up.
c. Civilizations with religious freedom get a +2 Happiness bonus (see the SE thread for more about the Happiness SE factor).
d. A civ in a state of religious freedom cannot build cathedrals or clerics. Already existing Cathedrals generate an amount of money equal to their normal upkeep cost to simulate tourism. [MBrazier would add that a civ under religious freedom cannot build temples.]

2. Effect on happiness under alternate systems.

A few people have proposed systems under which happiness becomes a percentage factor for each city that affects the productivity, and is not an attribute of the citizens. Under such systems, the conversion of one citizen to a new religion would increase the overall happiness/productivity percentage.

3. Effect of religious freedom on conviction.

Under religious freedom, the conviction rate for all citizens is 20 percent lower than it would otherwise be.

4. Effect of full toleration.

In addition to the effects listed above, if the player is not persecuting any religion, the research output of the religion increases by 10 percent (under the Civ2 system) or the Research SE factor improves by +1. [Will would add that this effect should begin only after a civ has had religious freedom for three turns in a row.

B. Establishment of a state religion.

1.General.

Under this system, the state picks one religion as its official state religion. Establishing a state religion does not imply or require persecution of any of the other religions within the civ's territory.

2. Effect on happiness

a. The effects on happiness described above under religious freedom cease.
b. If there are four believers of the state religion in the same city, one of them becomes happy (as the bonus of the Peacekeepers in SMAC). If a different happiness/productivity system is adopted, proclamation of a state religion increases a city (or civilization) happiness/productivity level by a factor of 25 percent times the proportion of citizens who belong to the state religion. However there is disagreement if the bonus should be rounded up (1, 2 or 3 believers already make one happy) or down (the bonus applies only if there are 4 believers). [MBrazier suggests that if a city has a temple, the happiness of 25% of the state religion's members residing in the city is upgraded.]
c. An additional unhappy citizen becomes content if more than 50 percent of the citizens (= a majority) of a city are members of the state religion.
d. The state religion's evangelism factor increases by 20 percent for all conversion activities within the borders of that civ.
e. If your state religion has a majority in a city you just conquered, the city is immediately assumed assimilated. The normal assimilation process is just as in SMAC 50 turns of increased unhappiness.
f. If another civ declares war on you, all the citizens in his empire that follow your state religion get one lower happiness level.
g. Deestablishing the state religion. A civ may deestablish a state religion at any time. However, deestablishment shall result in a period of Anarchy (see SE thread) for one turn.

3. Tithes.

A civ that has an established church must pay 20 percent of its total taxes as tithes to the church. When using the SE factors, the civ gets –2 Tax.

4. Cathedral.

Only a civ that has a state religion may build Cathedrals, which has the same effect as in Civ2. That means 4 unhappy citizens are made content. When you discover the tech advance Rationalism, the Age of Faith ends and Cathedrals only make 3 citizens content. [MBrazier suggests instead that a cathedral work like an upgraded temple; with exactly twice the effect on happiness that he suggests giving to a temple, that is, that 50 percent of the members of the state religion get their happiness level upgraded]. In any city containing a cathedral and a temple, the temple has no effect (like the several power plant improvements, only the best one works.)
A Cathedral also increases the state religion’s Evangelism strength with 10%.

5. Multiple civs with the same state church.

a. A civ may establish a religion as its state church even if another civ has already made that religion its state church. In such cases, the religion will not take any action against either of the civs, and will remain neutral in any conflict between them.
b. If the religion has a holy city, one of the civs may request the excommunication of the other civ’s leader (see Diplomacy). The religion will demand a contribution related to the number of believers in the excommunicated civ and the religion's attitude toward the civ that asks the excommunication and the civ that it wishes to excommunicate. [MBrazier would treat this concept as part of diplomacy.]

6. Schism

Civs may declare a schism in their state religion, even if they are the only civ having that religion as their state religion. This creates a new religion, to which most of the citizens belonging to the old religion will convert. A percentage of the members equal to an individual member's Conviction rating (after all bonuses and penalties) remain faithful to the old religion. The remainder join the schism. Handy if you’re excommunicated or just tired of the religious leader’s demands.

C. Persecution.

Under this system, belonging to a persecuted religion is illegal. A government may persecute any number of religions.

1. A persecuted religion's conversion factor is reduced by 25 percent for all conversion activities within the borders of the persecuting civ.

2. Happiness under persecution
M@ni@c and Raingoon say that simply all the persecuted citizens should get a lower happiness level (means happy citizens become content, content unhappy and unhappy very unhappy).
MBrazier says that 50% of the persecuted citizens should get a lower happiness level.
Will says that for every persecuted citizen, two citizens should get a lower happiness level.

3. Research under persecution
M@ni@c and Will think that the research output of any city containing persecuted citizens should decrease by 25 percent to reflect the effect of intolerance.
MBrazier thinks that for every persecuted religion, the civ should get a –1 to the Research factor.

4. Persecution has no positive effect other than those that result from the increase in the number of believers in other religions. If there is a state religion, the state religion is likely to be the chief beneficiary of persecution.

5. If a civ persecutes a religion, its reputation with any civ that has chosen that religion as it’s state religion will worsen. And its reputation with the religion itself will worsen even more.
Also the religious leader of the persecuted religion may ask a civ that has chosen that religion as it’s state religion to begin a holy war/Jihad.

D. Religious improvements.

The types of religious improvements, for the most part, remain the same as in Civ1/2 and may be built by any civ that has obtained the necessary technologies with the exceptions noted above. However, instead of a Temple making a fixed number of people content, the new use should be that a Temple is necessary to reap the happiness benefits desribed under A.1.a. and B.2.b.

IV. Religious diplomacy.

A. Major and minor religions

The diplomatic options available for interacting with a religion depend on the size of the religion.

1. Minor religions.

All religions start as minor religions.

2. Major religion.

A religion becomes a major religion when it has a number of adherents greater than the total number of citizens in the world divided by the starting number of civs. It remains a major religion even if an increase in world population or decrease in the number of adherents results in the religion's share of global population falling below 1/(starting number of civs).

3. Holy Cities and Great Shrines

a. When a religion becomes a major religion, the city where that religion started is proclaimed the holy city of that religion. That means that that city gets an automatic Great Shrine. [MBrazier would not make the appearance of the Great Shrine automatic. Instead, if a major religion had no great shrine, a civ that had that religion as its state religion could build a great shrine, at a cost comparable to that of a wonder. Will would allow for the automatic pronouncement of a holy city once a religion became a major religion, but allow another civ to move the holy city by building a Great Shrine. Once the Great Shrine is built, the holy city could be moved again only if the first Great Shrine is destroyed.]
b. If a civ controls a religion's Great Shrine, and that religion is the civ’s state religion, all the citizens of that city are never unhappy (as Shakespeare’s Theatre) and their Evangelism gets a +20% bonus. [MBrazier and Will suggest that the Great Shrine upgrade the happiness of all believer of that religion in the city by one level.]
c. If you control a religion's Great Shrine and tolerate that religion, the tax output of that city is doubled to represent pilgrimage. [MBrazier and Will suggest that, in this situation, the Great Shrine would increase the happiness level of 25% of the religion’s believers in that city.]
d. If you control a religion's Great Shrine and persecute that religion, there is no special effect besides the normal persecution penalties. [MBrazier and Will suggest instead that in this situation, the happiness level of all of the religion’s believers in the city with the Great Shrine would decrease.] If the last member of the religion in the city is converted, the Great Shrine is destroyed.
e. If a religion is eradicated from the world, the Great Shrine automatically disappears.
f. If the Great Shrine of a religion is destroyed (by destruction of the holy city or as mentioned in point d.), any civ that has that religion as its state religion may rebuild the Shrine in one of its own cities.
g. If the holy city is recaptured, the Shrine automatically reappears. This is the only time there can be two holy cities for one religion. [Will would delete this point.

B. Diplomatic options for both major and minor religions.

1. Request a donation.
Any religion may request a donation from any civ. If the religion is the state religion of that civ, refusal to give the donation will have a negative effect on the religion's attitude toward that civ.

2. Voluntary donation.

Any civ may give a donation to any religion. The donation will be treated as tithes and used to generate a ministry to a city chosen by the civ. That city may also be a foreign city. So a player could use this system to prop up religions that another player is attempting to eliminate, or to subvert another player's state religion.
.
3. Request a mission.

Any civ may request a religion to send a mission to one of its cities. The religion will charge an amount of gold equal to the cost of a religion-generated cleric, and adjusted upward or downward depending on the religion's attitude toward the requesting civ and whether the religion is the state religion of that civ.

C. Additional diplomatic options for major religions.

1. A major religion may:

a. Request a civ to conduct a jihad/holy war against another civ. The religion may offer to fund the jihad from it’s tithes. A religion will ask a Jihad when (1) that civ is persecuting the religion, or (2) a civ that does not have a substantial number of adherents to the religion has captured the holy city, or, (3) if that civ has repeatedly done things that harmed the religion’s attitude towards that civ.

b. Request a civ to defend another civ from a jihad.

c. Request a civ to conduct a crusade to take control of the holy city from another religion.

d. Demand that a civ sign a treaty with another civ.

e. Ask to become the civ’s state religion.

f. Failure to accede to these requests will hurt a civ's reputation with the religion. The effect will be greater if that religion is the state religion of the civ.

2. A civ may request a major religion to:

a. intervene in a war by demanding that its opponent sign a treaty.

b. pronounce a blessing, which would increase happiness in that civ for a fixed number of turns.
c. send a ministry to a city owned by another civ.

d. excommunicate another civ’s leader if that civ has the religion as his state religion. Excommunication makes all the followers of the religion have decreased happiness (opposite effect of blessing). [MBrazier would characterize this action as placing the citizens of the civ under interdict.]

e. Repeal an excommunication that the religion has imposed on the civ’s leader.

f. proclaim the civ defender of the faith. A civ may only request to be made the defender of the faith for its state religion. If it subsequently deestablishes the state religion, it ceases to be the defender of the faith. The defender of the faith pays half of the normal monetary cost for any of the actions it asks the religion to take. If the defender of the faith fails to comply with a request from the religion, it loses its status as defender of the faith and its reputation with the religion suffers greatly.

g. loan money to the civ.

h. the religion will charge the civ money for options a, b, c, d, e and f and interest for option g. The amount will depend on the civ's reputation with the religion, whether the religion is that civ's state religion, whether that civ possesses the religion's holy city, and whether the civ is the defender of the faith.

Thanks also to:
Stefu, NotLikeTea, Willko, Mo, MBD, Crusher, Kmj, VaderTwo, evil conquerer, Ecce Homo, Trachmyr, Eggman, Lancer, Doc Dee, Diodorus Sicilus, Yin26, HolyWarrior, Michael Jeszenka, CormacMacArt, Bell, Aharon Ben Rav, Giant Squid, delcuze2, paraclet, Cartagia the Great, Chowlett, The Octopus, Saganaga Canoer, EnochF, Black Dragon, Kris Huysmans, Galen, Flavor Dave, Francis, Theben, Alexander’s Horse, Monk, Bigcivfan, Spartan 187, FinnishGuy, Iceman88888888, Harel, Jon Miller

[Maniac]

Great work, Will! A few remarks to reduce the brackets.

II.B.5.b. You don’t have to put that between brackets. I also agree with it. I don’t know about Raingoon.

II.C.2. If the religion and not the player pays for the Temple/Cathedral upkeep(thus seriously reducing a chance on a too heavy economic burden), I agree that the citizen’s tithes should come from the trade stream, and not from under the matrasses.
So this point may be deleted.

[M@ni@c suggests instead that all religious gold is understood to have come from "under citizen mattresses," and not from the government coffers; it does not come from the trade stream.]

III.B.4. “In any city containing a cathedral and a temple, the temple has no effect (like the several power plant improvements, only the best one works.)”
Doesn’t this also have to be between brackets? I think there should always be a Temple with the effects described under III.D.

IV.A.3. Since you and MBrazier agree on Great Schrines, my Great Schrine proposal should be the one to be put between brackets and be threated as the minority idea (I don’t know where Raingoon agrees with. I thought MBrazier’s version.). But basically, as long as both options are represented; it’s ok.

So, that’s all I think.

BTW, I would fully agree if Raingoon was made thread manager.

[Maniac]

We still lack comments of MBrazier and Stefu on Will's suggested document.

[raingoon]

I have written Stefu offering to accept his proposal to become the new thread manager, but he hasn't written back confirming it. If he doesn't do anything or respond by the end of tomorrow I'll assume he wants me to be the new TM, and I'll send a note to Yin to let him know the religion thread is done and we'll be sending the final summary early next week.

Likewise, I suggest if we don't hear from MBrazier by the end of tomorrow, we assume he has consented to Will's document and we lock it up at that point.

[MBrazier]

To everyone --

I've been tied up all this week and haven't done more than skim Stefu's and Will's drafts... mea culpa. Apart from the obvious point that Stefu's draft was inclusive at the expense of clarity, I have no comments.

Given that, don't hold things up on my account! We're a week overdue already.

[raingoon]

MBrazier, thanks for checking in. I think that's a lock, then.

Will, if you address M@ni@c's comments, which shouldn't take long at all, it looks like your final document post has become the current religion model.

It still has to be in the proper format for the wish list, which shouldn't be hard to do. I'm going to go out on a limb here and say it looks like I'm the new TM -- at least for purposes of getting this thread summarized and handed in on time. In that event, you can leave the formatting work to me.

So, unless I hear otherwise by the end of Friday, my first act as Grand Poobah will be to take Stefu's current summary and edit out all references to our model and make sure what remains is a concise and inclusive list of all other ideas that do not overlap with those in the model. After that, I propose to paste Will's document, properly re-formatted, into the new wishlist summary -- as the first part of it. Other ideas not covered by the model that formerly were featured first on the list will continue to be featured prominently immediately thereafter. In general, newer ideas should be listed nearer the top, IMO. Also, Stefu, I'll credit you as the first TM in the summary for the hard work you did at the end, here.

Rants or raves? Suggestions? Do I sound like I know what the hell I'm doing? Whether I do or not, this baby's going to be handed in on Monday.

[will I]

Guys:

I will implement M@ni@c's changes, convert to standard format, and mail the final to Raingoon. I hope Raingoon will then post the model on the Firaxis forum. Although that's pretty moribund, it might get more attention that way.

[Stefu]

I'll be the TM from hereon also.

[Maniac]

Raingoon :

"and make sure what remains is a concise and inclusive list of all other ideas that do not overlap with those in the model."

Also don't forget to exclude all that SE crap I posted à la Atheism, Monotheism etc.

Will :

You say it yourself. The Firaxis forum is dead, so it won't receive much attention, I think. And the Firaxians realize also (I hope) that Apolyton is more important if it's about Civ3 suggestions.

Stefu :

What do you mean? Do we have a co-TM-ship now? Or is it again one of your jokes?

M@ni@c
From now on doubting what is written in every Stefu post with a in it.

[raingoon]

To All

Here is the new religion V2.1 summary, updated to include some minority voices previously missed and to more accurately reflect the thread as it evolved. Please tell me if you think section 5 is fair to those who posted, or if I should organize it differently.

Of course, if you see anything at all wrong with the summary, please post now! All reasonable editorial suggestions will be honored, no questions asked.

Summary of Religion 2.0

Contents
1. Religion in Civ3
1.1 Why have it in the game?
1.2 Religion in Civ3 Defined.
2. Religion Concepts
2.1 Origins
2.2 Conversion
2.3 Tithing
3. Effects of Religion
3.1 Under Religious Freedom
3.2 Establishment of a State Religion
3.3 Persecution
3.4 Religious Improvements
4. Religious Diplomacy
4.1 Major and Minor Religions
4.2 Diplomatic Options for Major and Minor Religions
4.3 Additional Diplomatic Options for Major Religions
5. More Ideas, Opinions, and Comments

1. Religion in Civ3

1.1) Why have it in the game?

As the discussion has evolved, the vast majority feel religion has been under-represented in Civ 1 and 2. Discussions were founded on the belief that religion is a fundamental force driving civilizations, and that the effects of religion permeate the history of nations, their borders, their wars and their treaties. Your ability to direct religion's impact should be likewise varied. You should be able to identify your citizens individually by their beliefs, track the rise and fall of major religions, and generally get your hands into the religious mechanisms that have historically led nations to war and caused civilization’s to grow and crumble. With that in mind…

1.2) Religion in Civ3 Defined.

Religion should be a game element comparable to trade. Where trade deals with resources, religion would deal with population.

1.2.1) Religions would be synonymous with citizens, each citizen having the ability to belong to one religion.

1.2.2) Each city would be represented on the game map by the religion practiced by the majority of its citizens.

1.2.3) Each religion would have its own symbol.

1.2.4) No religion would have greater or lesser numerical values than any other. This has evolved to ensure that real-world religions could be used without causing offense. However, some still want each religion to have different Evangelism and Conviction ratings (defined below) and don’t believe it would be contentious.

1.2.5) Religion names could be edited by the player, thus Firaxis can choose to set the AI to default to historical religions, defunct religions, or fictional religions, or whatever they deem most appropriate. Under this proposal, all suggested beliefs are honored because the player would have the start-up option of choosing which religion "brands" he/she wanted in the game.

1.2.6) At any time there could be up to three more religions than there are civs. If there were ever four more than X civs, the smallest religion would be eliminated and its members given to the second smallest religion.

1.2.7) Religions would be visible in the game in four ways:

1.2.7.1) In the city screen by each population figure holding a flag with its religion’s symbol on it. When the population became too large for this to work, there would be a separate graphic showing the number of citizens adhering to each religion.

1.2.7.2) On the main map you would see the current religious borders of the world by filtering for it (e.g., hitting F1 key). This feature would introduce the concept of “religious regions,” which would rarely conform to political borders, leading to new strategic considerations. For instance, players would now have to take into account the religious geography of their theater of war.

1.2.7.3) Cleric units would represent both a specific civ (by color) and a specific religion (by symbol).

1.2.7.4) On the main map, the symbol of a city’s majority religion would appear on that city’s flag, next to its size.

2. Religion Concepts

2.1) Origins

Once civs have had time to establish a foothold, prophets would begin to appear. Religions would begin to spread immediately thereafter. This has evolved from ideas such as the previous suggestion that wars or “three nasty events in a row” cause religions to appear. In this model, new religions would appear realistically, throughout the centuries. Some might never grow more than a city or two, while others would become recognized world religions. Some that were eradicated would never be heard of again; others might enjoy a revival two thousand years later.

2.1.1) Prophets

2.1.1.1) All civs would begin non-aligned and would experience the emergence of at least one prophet beginning with the second millenium of the game, but not before the discovery of religion.

2.1.1.2) A prophet is not a unit, but rather a newly born citizen in a given city's population window, identified by his/her new religious symbol, with higher conversion values (20 evangelism, 25 conviction) than regular citizens (see conversion, below, for explanation of conversion values).

2.1.1.3) After their appearance prophets would last for X turns, where X is randomly chosen from between 15 and 30, then convert back into regular citizens; their religious symbol would remain.

2.1.1.4) After the prophet disappeared from a city, the remaining citizens would continue to benefit from the prophet's greater conversion values for 20 more turns. This is to ensure fledgling religions will have a chance to develop.

2.1.1.5) Prophets can appear at any time during the game.

2.1.1.6) Turywenzism begins with an announcement such as: "Turywenzo has begun preaching in Turygrad."

2.1.1.7) Prophets can appear in any city.

2.1.1.8) Upon appearing, prophets would instantly convert one citizen (other than themselves, of course); after that, conversion would proceed under the normal rules for citizen to citizen conversions (see, below).

2.1.1.9) If a government persecutes the new religion while the prophet is preaching, the prophet would be considered martyred and disappear, leaving behind his/her bonus as described above. All non-aligned citizens within 8 squares would immediately convert to the new religion.

2.1.1.10) A religion can re-appear with a new prophet only after its religion has previously been eradicated.

2.1.1.11) Some suggest that in the modern era the prophet be called a “propagandist,” his “religion” to be considered more generally a belief – as in Marx and Communism.

2.2) Conversion

Each religion would be incompatible with all others. Whenever two religions overlapped "zones of influence”, each would seek to dominate the other. The AI would handle the calculations and keep track of the results. New conversions would be noted in the population window of the appropriate city.

2.2.1) Evangelism

2.2.1.1) All citizen units in the population window have evangelism values.

2.2.1.2) Evangelism is the "attack" value of a religion.

2.2.1.3) All religions begin with the same base evangelism value, 10.

2.2.2) Conviction

2.2.2.1) All citizen units in the population window have conviction values.

2.2.2.2) Conviction is the "defense" value of a religion.

2.2.2.3) All religions begin with the same base conviction value, 15.

The higher conviction rating is so that, all things being equal, citizens should
successfully defend against conversion attempts about 60% of the time.

2.2.3) Adjusting Conversion Ratings

You would be able to increase (or in some cases decrease) your citizens' conversion ratings by:

2.2.3.1) Donating money to a specific religion.

2.2.3.2) Declaring a state religion.

2.2.3.3) Hosting a holy city.

2.2.3.4) Building a city improvement.

2.2.3.5) Building a Wonder.

2.2.3.6) Discovering a technological advance.

2.2.3.7) Setting your civ's attitudes towards religion in the religion screen.

2.2.3.8) Four like believers in one city increases each believer's values by .25; thus, a 4 stack of 4 Yahoos, at 10 evangelism each, is worth 50.

2.2.3.9) Declaring religious freedom.

2.2.3.10) Having a positive or negative SE Nationalism rate (see Social Engineering summary).

2.2.3.11) Establishing a mission.

2.2.4) Passive Conversions

2.2.4.1) Calculations are made by "stacking" citizens together by religion and combining their values.

2.2.4.2) Passive conversions reflect the influence of the citizens in a city on their fellow citizens and the proportionately weaker influence of citizens in nearby cities.

2.2.4.3) Passive conversions would be calculated, on average, every five turns. The computer would randomize the interval between passive conversions so that players couldn’t boost evangelism/conviction factors the year before a scheduled passive conversion.

2.2.4.4) Possible formula for calculating passive conversion:

The Evangelism (Conviction) of a religion within a city is the sum of: the Evan(Conv) of each member in the city; plus (1 - dist/10) * Evan(Conv) of each member of that religion in a city less than 10 squares away; plus 1/2 * Evan(Conv) of each member of that religion in a city that has a mission to the city. If a religion has no members in a city, it is not attacked by other stacks.

2.2.4.5)Once the evangelism and conviction factors are calculated, the results are calculated like a battle between units of equal strength. If the evangelizing side wins, one citizen of the opposing religion is converted.

A sample conversion turn within a city:

4 Turywenzists in London start with an evangelist factor of 10. England has Turywenzism as the state religion (+0.2 modifier) which increases each Turywenzists citizen's base evangelism value to 12. The city of London has a cathedral (+.10 modifier = 13). This gives each Turywenzist in London an evangelist factor of 13. And 4 of its citizens are Turywenzists (+.25 modifier each)., for a combined stack evangelism value of 65. This factor is calculated against the conviction ratings of the 2 Londoners who are Yahoos who receive none of the modifiers, but whose higher conviction ratings nevertheless combine to equal 30, increasing the odds they won't capitulate in one turn. When the calculation is reversed, there is an even smaller chance the Yahoos combined evangelism rating of 20 will have any effect at all on the Turywenzist stack's combined conviction rating after all the modifiers have been figured in.

For more discussion of modifiers and the religion screen, see section 3 below, "Effects of Religion."

2.2.4.6) For every successful conversion, one unit in the defending religion stack would convert.

2.2.5) Active Conversions - "Missions Established by Player"

2.2.5.1) A civilization with a "state religion" (see section 3 for definition) would be able to build a Cleric unit of the state religion. A cleric resembles a caravan unit; it cannot attack and ignores ZOC. When it enters a city it founds a mission from the state religion and disappears (just as a caravan creates a trade route and disappears.) Each city may only contain 3 missions.

2.2.5.2) The player may only establish missions outside his/her civ. The religion-AI would be able to establish them everywhere (see below).

2.2.5.3) A mission brings the foreign city into the home city's zone of influence; the foreign city is now treated as if it resided 4 tiles away from the home city and follows the rules for city to city conversions until the mission is de-established.

2.2.5.4) A mission converts one citizen when first founded automatically, and increases the conviction rating for citizens of its religion by 50% of the base value as long as it remains in existence.

2.2.5.5) Clerics disappear after they have established one mission.

2.2.5.6) Like trade routes, missions are always successfully established.

2.2.5.7.) Like diplomats, clerics may be destroyed or expelled en route.

2.2.5.8) If the last remaining member of a religion in a city is converted away, any mission from that religion in the city is immediately disbanded and removed. This, and the destruction of the city, are the only things that can destroy a mission once founded.

2.2.6) Active Conversions – “Missions Established by AI Religion”

2.2.6.1) The religion may send clerics from any city to any city, ignoring civ borders entirely. It prefers to start clerics from the city where its members' total evangelism is highest, and send them to the city where its members' total conviction is lowest. It also prefers to minimize the distance the cleric must travel. (The relative importance of these three preferences is not obvious.)

2.2.6.2) In all other respects religion-owned clerics act like civ-owned ones.

2.2.6.3) The AI clerics are generated by a religion when the religion has accumulated X+D gold (where X is the total number of believers of that religion throughout the world, and D is a configurable parameter).

2.2.7) Population growth expands religions

In the case of new citizens being born, the percentage chance they would be born believing in religion X, Y, or Z would be equal to the percentage that religion X, Y, and Z were represented within that city.

2.3) Tithing

Gold pieces are what religions use to fund missions, their most powerful tool for expansion.

2.3.1) Religious coffers are tracked by the AI.

2.3.2) The amount of gold a religion has can be seen in the religion screen, but only if that religion has a holy city (see Diplomacy, below).

2.3.3) Under religious freedom: Each turn, every city tithes one gold per religion represented, to the respective religions coffers. This comes from the trade stream. To avoid making the burden too great, tithes are subtracted before the corruption calculation (since even a cad would hesitate to steal from the church). In addition, the civs would no longer pay upkeep for religious improvements. Instead, the upkeep fees for all religious improvements are subtracted from the treasuries of the religions, with each religion paying a proportion of the total upkeep proportionate to its share of the civ's population.

2.3.4) Under a state religion: The tithe paid by the government is automatically sent into that religion's coffers; the city tithe from religious freedom is disabled. Some suggest in addition that, under a state religion, the religion continues to receive the city tithe from religious freedom.

2.3.5) When a religion has built missions in all available cities it continues to collect tithes and build its coffers.

2.3.6) Donations : Religions will ask for donations periodically. However, the player totally free to neglect their wish.

2.3.7) A religion can loan gold to a civ (see Diplomacy, holy cities, below).

3. Effects of Religion

The player will have several options with regard to each religion. He or she may choose to establish a state religion or allow religious freedom. Regardless of whether there is religious freedom or an state religion, the player may choose to persecute one or more religions.

3.1) Under Religious Freedom

3.1.1) Effect on happiness, using current system.

3.1.1.1) For each religion in a city, one unhappy citizen becomes content or, if there are no unhappy citizens, a content citizen becomes happy. This effect continues indefinitely, so that each religion present in a city adds a step to the base happiness level of the city. Some suggest instead that one unhappy becomes content, or one content becomes happy. Alternatively, others suggest that if just 2/3 of the people are of the same religion (any religion), 1 citizen becomes content.


3.1.1.2) To keep religion from having too great a benefit, the happiness effects described in 3.1.1.1) will apply to no more than one out of every four citizens in a city. That is, if there are seven citizens and three religions, only two citizens may be made happy. So the effects are rounded up.

3.1.1.3) Civilizations with religious freedom get a +2 Happiness bonus (see the SE summary for more about the Happiness SE factor).

3.1.1.4) A civ in a state of religious freedom cannot build cathedrals or clerics. Already existing Cathedrals generate an amount of money equal to their normal upkeep cost to simulate tourism. Some would add that a civ under religious freedom cannot build temples.

3.1.2) Effect on happiness using alternate systems.

A few people have proposed systems under which happiness becomes a percentage factor for each city that affects the productivity, and is not an attribute of the citizens. Under such systems, the conversion of one citizen to a new religion would increase the overall happiness/productivity percentage.

3.1.3) Effect of religious freedom on conviction.

Under religious freedom, the conviction rate for all citizens is 20 percent lower than it would otherwise be.

3.1.4) Effect of full toleration.

In addition to the effects listed above, if the player is not persecuting any religion, the research output of the religion increases by 10 percent (under the Civ2 system) or the Research SE factor improves by +1. Some would add that this effect should begin only after a civ has had religious freedom for three turns in a row.

3.2) Establishment of a State Religion.

Under this system, the state picks one religion as its official state religion. Establishing a state religion does not imply or require persecution of any of the other religions within the civ's territory.

3.2.1) Effect on happiness

3.2.1.1) The effects on happiness described above under religious freedom cease.

3.2.1.2) If there are four believers of the state religion in the same city, one of them becomes happy (as the bonus of the Peacekeepers in SMAC). If a different happiness/productivity system is adopted, proclamation of a state religion increases a city (or civilization) happiness/productivity level by a factor of 25 percent times the proportion of citizens who belong to the state religion. However there is disagreement if the bonus should be rounded up (1, 2 or 3 believers already make one happy) or down (the bonus applies only if there are 4 believers). Some suggest that if a city has a temple, the happiness of 25% of the state religion's members residing in the city is upgraded.

3.2.1.3) An additional unhappy citizen becomes content if more than 50 percent of the citizens (= a majority) of a city are members of the state religion.

3.2.1.4) The state religion's evangelism factor increases by 20 percent for all conversion activities within the borders of that civ.

3.2.1.5) If your state religion has a majority in a city you just conquered, the city is immediately assumed assimilated. The normal assimilation process is just as in SMAC 50 turns of increased unhappiness.

3.2.1.6) If another civ declares war on you, all the citizens in his empire that follow your state religion get one lower happiness level.

3.2.1.7) Deestablishing the state religion. A civ may deestablish a state religion at any time. However, deestablishment shall result in a period of Anarchy (see SE thread) for one turn.

3.2.2) Tithes.

A civ that has an established church must pay 20 percent of its total taxes as tithes to the church. When using the SE factors, the civ gets –2 Tax.

3.2.3) Cathedral.

Only a civ that has a state religion may build Cathedrals, which has the same effect as in Civ2. That means 4 unhappy citizens are made content. When you discover the tech advance Rationalism, the Age of Faith ends and Cathedrals only make 3 citizens content. Some suggest instead that a cathedral work like an upgraded temple; with exactly twice the effect on happiness that they suggest giving to a temple, that is, that 50 percent of the members of the state religion get their happiness level upgraded and that in any city containing a cathedral and a temple, the temple has no effect (like the several power plant improvements, only the best one works.) A Cathedral also increases the state religion’s Evangelism strength by 10%.

3.2.4) Multiple civs with the same state church.

3.2.4.1) A civ may establish a religion as its state church even if another civ has already made that religion its state church. In such cases, the religion will not take any action against either of the civs, and will remain neutral in any conflict between them.

3.2.4.2) If the religion has a holy city, one of the civs in the above example may request the excommunication of the other civ’s leader (see Diplomacy). The religion will demand a contribution related to the number of believers in the excommunicated civ, and the religion's attitude toward both the civ asking for the excommunication, and the civ being excommunicated. Some would treat this concept as part of diplomacy.

3.2.5) Schism

Civs may declare a schism in their state religion, even if they are the only civ having that religion as their state religion. This creates a new religion, to which most of the citizens belonging to the old religion will convert. A percentage of the members equal to an individual member's conviction rating (after all bonuses and penalties) remain faithful to the old religion. The remainder join the schism. Handy if you’re excommunicated or just tired of the religious leader’s demands.

3.3) Persecution.

Under this system, belonging to a persecuted religion is illegal. A government may persecute any number of religions.

3.3.1) A persecuted religion's conversion factor is reduced by 25 percent for all conversion activities within the borders of the persecuting civ.

3.3.2) Happiness under persecution

Some say that all the persecuted citizens should simply get a lower happiness level (means happy citizens become content, content unhappy and unhappy very unhappy).
Others say that 50% of the persecuted citizens should get a lower happiness level.
Still others say that for every persecuted citizen, two citizens should get a lower happiness level.

3.3.3) Research under persecution
Some think that the research output of any city containing persecuted citizens should decrease by 25 percent to reflect the effect of intolerance. Others think that for every persecuted religion, the civ should get a –1 to the Research factor.

3.3.4) Persecution has no positive effect other than those that result from the increase in the number of believers in other religions. If there is a state religion, the state religion is likely to be the chief beneficiary of persecution.

3.3.5) If a civ persecutes a religion, its reputation with any civ that has chosen that religion as it’s state religion will worsen. And its reputation with the religion itself will worsen even more.
Also the religious leader of the persecuted religion may ask a civ that has chosen that religion as it’s state religion to begin a holy war/Jihad.

3.4) Religious Improvements.

Previously it had been pointed out that names of structures need not be western based only (consider mosques, synagogues, etc.) That said, the types of religious improvements, for the most part, should remain the same as in Civ1/2; they may be built by any civ that has obtained the necessary technologies with the exceptions noted above. However, instead of a Temple making a fixed number of people content, the new use should be that a Temple is necessary to reap the happiness benefits described under 3.1.1.1 and 3.2.1.2. Previously some had suggested you should only be able to build religious structures if you have at least one supported religion, and that only followers of that religion would get some good out of that.

3.4.1) Other improvements: Some suggested that building educational facilities (school, University) makes exposure to other religions greater. Under this suggestion, each religion would get an extra percentage point when on "the offense" (trying to convert someone).

4. Religious Diplomacy

4.1) Major and Minor Religions

The diplomatic options available for interacting with a religion depend on the size of the religion.

4.1.1) Minor religions.

All religions start as minor religions.

4.1.2) Major religion.

A religion becomes a major religion when it has a number of adherents greater than the total number of citizens in the world divided by the starting number of civs. It remains a major religion even if an increase in world population or decrease in the number of adherents results in the religion's share of global population falling below 1/(starting number of civs).

4.1.3) Holy Cities and Great Shrines

4.1.3.1) When a religion becomes a major religion, the city where that religion started is proclaimed the holy city of that religion. That means that that city gets an automatic Great Shrine. Some would not make the appearance of the Great Shrine automatic. Instead, if a major religion had no Great Shrine, a civ that had that religion as its state religion could build a Great Shrine, at a cost comparable to that of a wonder. Some would allow for the automatic pronouncement of a holy city once a religion became a major religion, but allow another civ to move the holy city by building a Great Shrine. Once the Great Shrine is built, the holy city could be moved again only if the first Great Shrine is destroyed.

4.1.3.2) The Great Shrine upgrades the happiness of all believers of that religion in the city by one level. Some suggest that if a civ controls a religion's Great Shrine, and that religion is the civ’s state religion, all the citizens of that city are never unhappy (as Shakespeare’s Theatre) and their evangelism gets a +20% bonus.

4.1.3.3) If you control a religion's Great Shrine and tolerate that religion, the Great Shrine would increase the happiness level of 25% of the religion’s believers in that city. Some suggest that the tax output of that city is doubled to represent pilgrimage.

4.1.3.4) If you control a religion's Great Shrine and persecute that religion, the happiness level of all of the religion’s believers in the city with the Great Shrine would decrease. Some suggest there be no special effect besides the normal persecution penalties. If the last member of the religion in the city is converted, the Great Shrine is destroyed.

4.1.3.5) If a religion is eradicated from the world, the Great Shrine automatically disappears.

4.1.3.6) If the Great Shrine of a religion is destroyed (by destruction of the holy city or as mentioned in point 4.1.3.4.), any civ that has that religion as its state religion may rebuild the Shrine in one of its own cities.

4.1.3.7) If the holy city is recaptured, the Shrine automatically reappears. This is the only time there can be two holy cities for one religion. Some would delete this point.

4.2) Diplomatic Options for Major and Minor Religions

4.2.1) Request a donation.

Any religion may request a donation from any civ. If the religion is the state religion of that civ, refusal to give the donation will have a negative effect on the religion's attitude toward that civ.

4.2.2) Voluntary donation.

Any civ may give a donation to any religion. The donation will be treated as tithes and used to generate a ministry to a city chosen by the civ. That city may also be a foreign city. So a player could use this system to prop up religions that another player is attempting to eliminate, or to subvert another player's state religion.
.
4.2.3) Request a mission.
Any civ may request a religion to send a mission to one of its cities. The religion will charge an amount of gold equal to the cost of a religion-generated cleric, and adjusted upward or downward depending on the religion's attitude toward the requesting civ and whether the religion is the state religion of that civ.

4.3) Additional Diplomatic Options for Major Religions.

4.3.1) A major religion may:

4.3.1.1) Request a civ to conduct a jihad/holy war against another civ. The religion may offer to fund the jihad from it’s tithes. A religion will ask a Jihad when (1) that civ is persecuting the religion, or (2) a civ that does not have a substantial number of adherents to the religion has captured the holy city, or, (3) if that civ has repeatedly done things that harmed the religion’s attitude towards that civ.

4.3.1.2) Request a civ to defend another civ from a jihad.

4.3.1.3) Request a civ to conduct a crusade to take control of the holy city from another religion.

4.3.1.4) Demand that a civ sign a treaty with another civ.

4.3.1.5) Ask to become the civ’s state religion.

4.3.1.6) Failure to accede to these requests will hurt a civ's reputation with the religion. The effect will be greater if that religion is the state religion of the civ.

4.3.2) A civ may request a major religion to:

4.3.2.1) intervene in a war by demanding that its opponent sign a treaty.

4.3.2.2) pronounce a blessing, which would increase happiness in that civ for a fixed number of turns.

4.3.2.3) send a ministry to a city owned by another civ.

4.3.2.4) excommunicate another civ’s leader if that civ has the religion as his state religion. Excommunication makes all the followers of the religion have decreased happiness (opposite effect of blessing). Some would characterize this action as placing the citizens of the civ under interdict.

4.3.2.5) repeal an excommunication that the religion has imposed on the civ’s leader.

4.3.2.6) proclaim the civ defender of the faith. A civ may only request to be made the defender of the faith for its state religion. If it subsequently deestablishes the state religion, it ceases to be the defender of the faith. The defender of the faith pays half of the normal monetary cost for any of the actions it asks the religion to take. If the defender of the faith fails to comply with a request from the religion, it loses its status as defender of the faith and its reputation with the religion suffers greatly.

4.3.2.7) loan money to the civ.

4.3.2.8) the religion will charge the civ money for options 4.3.2.1-6 and interest for option 4.3.2.7. The amount will depend on the civ's reputation with the religion, whether the religion is that civ's state religion, whether that civ possesses the religion's holy city, and whether the civ is the defender of the faith.

5. More Ideas, Opinions and Comments

Other ideas from v1.0 bear considering again as equally viable alternatives, and as commentary on the v2.0 model they inspired…

5.1) Some say Communism should have a more difficult time spreading religion, Democracy should have hard a harder time persecuting and so on.

5.2) Animism/Megaliths: In this model, all civilizations start out with Animism and can build Megaliths to increase the chance that more advanced religions will develop. When a religion pops up, a ruler can either accept or reject it, with risk of schism.

5.3) Victory Condition: Unite the entire world to the faith you are using.

5.3.1) “Godhood.” In a model with individualized conversion rates, switching to a religion called "Divine Leader," with a very low starting conversion rate, then making more than half the world accept this religion and proclaim you God, gives you a victory.

5.4) Propagandists: In this model instead of Clerics there would be Propagandists, spreading their agendas (religion being one) to cities. This model also includes some cities being more open to, for instance, Fascism than other cities and being more easily bribed by Fascist nations.

5.5) If a religion has been around a long time, it should have a higher rate of devotion.

5.6) There should be bonuses for Religious Freedom in the form of immigration and science. However, diversity would also create friction and possibly happiness penalties.

5.7) Unhappy people should be more willing to convert to new religions.

5.8) RELIGIONS LIKE SOCIAL ENGINEERING, MODEL 1: In this model, religions can be customized like Social Engineering in SMAC. You could decide primary factors like Monotheism, Polytheism or Mysticism, important aspects such as afterlife and status of priests and TENETS such as Ascetic, Maltheism or Monastic. In order to enact changes, you need DOGMA, which you could get from priests (city profession) or religious wonders. Dogma then slowly changes your religion. The religion master screen would show the percentages of religions in game; you could also edit religions or set their STATE ACCEPTANCE. Religions also have FERVOR status which shows how highly the religion is held: high FERVOR multiplies the effects. DOGMA can be spent to increase FERVOR.

5.9) RELIGIONS LIKE SOCIAL ENGINEERING, MODEL 2: This isn't as complex - Religious models would be chosen from Social Engineering. Suggested models are Animism, Polytheism, Philosophical, Monotheism, Reformed, Fundamentalism, Deism and Atheism. There would be a Theocracy Government choice instead of Fundamentalist. There would be bonuses if the civilization is both Fundamentalist and Theocracy. And finally, like in SMAC, civilizations with differing religious choices would be likely to be hostile towards each other.

5.10) PHILOSOPHY SOCIAL ENGINEERING: This idea sticks to the same social engineering idea but replaces Religion with Philosophy. Philosophical choices would affect diplomatic relations, government types available, speed of research, happiness level of citizens, and productivity of citizens.

5.11) TYPE OF GOD SETS BONUSES/MINUSES: In this idea, the religions pop up at random. They have different bonuses and minuses, depending on what kind of god they worship. If the religion is pantheistic, it gains small bonuses in several areas, but has increased inefficiency and upkeep costs. If it is monotheistic, it gains bonuses depending on what kind of god, for instance is he clockmaker, judge or executioner?

5.12) INDIRECT BONUSES: In this model it may be possible to direct people by way of religion so they, in time, would gain bonuses.

5.13) Tolerance decides how actively the religion will try to convince a civ to make it their state religion: Low-tolerance pursues it while high-tolerance ones don't.

5.14) BIRTH CONTROL MAKES RELIGIONS OBSOLETE: This would also mean that emptied churches would be sold like old barracks in Civ1/2.

5.15) TEMPLES DIFFERING FROM STADIUMS: In this idea, Temples and other religious improvements make members of some religion happy (depending on popularity of religion) while stadiums and other non-religious improvements would make fixed numbers of citizens happy.

5.16) NONVIOLENT ACTION: Gandhi was a kind of missionary. Maybe a supermissionary unit can start long national strikes?

5.17) RANDOM ONE TRUE RELIGION: In this suggestion, the One True Religion would be randomly chosen at the start of a game and it would be up for players to discover which one it is.

5.18) CENTRALIZATION: Centralization would be another factor determining the religion, i.e. it could be High (like Catholic church) with one central body controlling the faith, moderate (like in Middle east) or low (like in Lutheran church), which would preach priesthood for all believers. Centralization would say how much religion will "act," for instance how much it would start crusades without your support. (Maybe it would decide also how likely schisms would be?)

5.19) DISLOYALTY: I.e. Religion system without religion. For instance, the city of Carthage could like Greeks and Romans, be indifferent to Indians and hate the Chinese.

5.20) CHANGING RELIGIONS: If religions have preset attributes, then they could change. For instance, Protestantism used to view science more positively than it does now. Also, Christianity was more pacifist than it typically is today, etc.

5.21) Alternate Naming: Religions would be named after the civilization they sprung from and also from their class, if that were adopted. For instance: Chinese Monotheism would be different from Babylonian Monotheism. Although similar, they could still declare wars against each other.

5.21.1) Certain systems would have titles like government titles in Civilization II. For instance, Arabic Monotheism would be Islam, while Chinese Philosophical would be Confucianism.

5.22)Simple/Complex: A simple setting has one religion/civilization, while complex settings would build toward micromanagement nightmares.

5.23) ZONES: In beginning of the game, you'd have the option to start from a zone influenced by a certain religion, for instance you could choose Muslim influenced zone, Christian influenced zone or Buddhism influenced zone. This would probably mean that Christian religion would spread better in a Christian zone than in a Muslim Zone…

5.24) Some suggested classes have been: Polytheism, Monotheism, Animism, Philosophical, Reformed, Fundamentalist, Deist and Atheist.

5.25) Ethnic groups. In this model there are is an ethnic factor, of which religion is one.

5.26) Some previously said it would be frustrating if religion worked behind the scenes to the extent you could not see its effects instantly.

5.27) Another variation on an “ethnic factor” is that each civilization has culture, and Religions are part of that culture. Civs with superior culture gain influence over other, less cultured civs (not always superior of power, mind you.)

5.28) Religion should remain a function of SMAC-like Social Engineering.

5.29) Centralization would indicate how structural a religion is – E.g., is it like the Catholic Church, with huge hierarchies, or the Lutheran Church, which believes in the priesthood of all followers? Centralization factor could affect a religion’s diplomatic relationship with government – with re to crusades, etc. Maybe it also affects how often there will be Schisms?

5.30) Real religions should appear on real years – Cristianity starting 33 AD, Islam 500 AD, etc.

5.31) Religious riots? What if members of one religion are unhappy because they don’t have a temple? Religious riots. Nastier than normal riots, as rioters destroy buildings of other people’s worship, thus escalating the situation. They could even destroy wonders.

5.32) Should a State Religion be chosen, then all improvements of other religions are torn down (while some claim they could be transformed to the new churches of State Religion, or sold like Barracks.)

5.33) First ones to convert in any city are the unhappiest ones, then content and finally happy people.

5.34) If someone has Holy City and State Religion, they could have new government option called Theocracy. Under Theocracy the Holy City acts like a second capital, lessening corruption nearby.

5.35) It is said that in modern world Science is replacing Religion, so Scientific Teachers would be atheist missionaries (the idea is that people would abandon their God-centered world of view and adopt scientific theories of birth of world and life instead.) Author of this idea says that they should also be better than normal missionaries.

5.36) Religion can be just the thing to give new life to a scenario – or just the thing to destroy it. You should be able to remove them altogether or determine that there will be no new conversions. You should also be able to place whatever mix of religions you want in each city.

5.37) Religions should not appear on the tech tree at all.

5.38) There should be an option to “switch off” religion at the start-up.

5.39) If atheism is used as a label in the v2.0 model, some suggested that logically there could be no holy city in the event it became a major religion. There are some name-customizing problems implied by this.

5.40) In the v2.0 model, if two religions convert one citizen on the same turn, some suggested that the citizen be “confused” and turn to agnosticism, which means a reversion back to non-aligned, for game purposes.

5.41) ALTERNATIVE RELIGION ORIGINS. One poster suggested that as you reach a certain technological level, determined by an accumulation of points from both the tech side and the religion side, a new religion would be announced in the same way that the Golden Age of Philosophy in Civ2 was announced. Whatever city gave the final research point that pushed the appropriate tech over the edge would be the "religious center".

5.41.1) A "center" would not require having members of that religion live there. If the tech that pushed you over came from a goody hut, then an unoccupied tile will be the holy place. This would be something like Gautama meditating under a once-normal tree which then became a Buddhist center, marked in the game with a little temple icon.

5.42) ANOTHER CONVERSION METHOD. Religions would have different percentages associated with them. When two came into contact the lower would be subtracted from the higher, and the difference would be equal to the percentage that citizen would covert. Each new citizen already of a certain religion in a city adds 1.5% to that religions conversion percentage in that city. Improvements would increase it further. You could also build improvements similar to Capitalization, called Persecution, in which each shield is converted to a percentage chance that citizens will subscribe to whatever religion you tell them to.

5.42.1) If a holy center is captured (or, if on an empty square, the square is pillaged) the religion will lose a percentage point or two.

5.43) Diplomatic negotiations would expose rival civs to new religions, and each would immediately begin to experience conversions to the other’s belief.

5.44) One poster suggested that a Holy City get a trade bonus of arrows (for pilgrimage). This models the Vatican with its population of 800 and 10 million tourists visit every year.

5.45) When a diplomat incites a city to revolt, the price would be modified based on the conversion power of your state religion. If greater than your enemy, the cost drops significantly.

5.46) Some wonders would affect only certain religions. For example, Michelangelo's Chapel might make only Christians in the empire content. This would be incentive to recruit more Christians.

5.47) Other effects of State Religion: The conversion rate would increase by 1%, and each citizen of that religion would generate one luxury.

5.48) Religions evolve with the civ you are playing. In this model, religions start with different modifiers, and, depending on your playing style, i.e., if you are warlike or peaceful, your civ’s religion changes accordingly, on its own. At some point you could force a religion on your people via theocracy and suffer happiness penalties.

5.49) One poster suggested that you could choose what religion you wanted in each city. Each religion would have a bonus (Polytheism would get +100% extra from temples,
Monotheism +100% from churches, Atheism a double science bonus from universities and
Religous Freedom gets +25% extra from all holy buildings and wonders). Then, it would spread like the v.2.0 model listed above.

5.50) Attitudes religions might have, by category:
Outlook on war (Militant, Neutral, Pacifistic)
Evangelism (Evangelistic, Normal, Non-Evangelistic)
Tolerance (Open, Tolerant, Intolerant)

5.50.1) A militant religion would produce fanatics with the capability of terrorism.

5.51) Theocracies should be possible -- as in a monarchy where a state religion would mean the king was god.

Summary by Raingoon, Will, M@ni@c, Mbrazier, (revised from the summary by Stefu).

LIST OF CONTRIBUTORS

Will, M@ni@c, Mbrazier, Raingoon, NotLikeTea, Stefu, Willko, Mo, MBD, Crusher, Kmj, VaderTwo, evil conquerer, Ecce Homo, Trachmyr, Eggman, Lancer, Doc Dee, Diodorus Sicilus, Yin26, HolyWarrior, Michael Jeszenka, CormacMacArt, Bell, Aharon Ben Rav, Giant Squid, delcuze2, paraclet, Cartagia the Great, Chowlett, The Octopus, Saganaga Canoer, EnochF, Black Dragon, Kris Huysmans, Galen, Flavor Dave, Francis, Theben, Alexander’s Horse, Monk, Bigcivfan, Spartan 187, FinnishGuy, Iceman88888888, Harel, Jon Miller, and many others who have been suggesting the above, in whole or in parts, since the days of Civ I.


<font size=1 face=Arial color=444444>[This message has been edited by raingoon (edited September 17, 1999).]</font>

[Stefu]

M@ni@c:

That was called unclear language. It is not a joke. It means I will be TM. Only me. Not raingoon. From hereon also. Also from hereon. Understood?

[NotLikeTea]

Sorry for the absence... combination of 3 week vacation in Europe and the chaos of preparing for second year university.

Some comments:

"2.1.1.1) All civs would begin pagan" - I don't like this idea, that civs begin pagan, and "evolve" to something better. Paganism is just as valid as any other religion.

"2.1.1.9) Martyrs" - Again, I'm not so sure of this. Why would ANYONE persecute a religion at this point if it only increases the scope?

"2.2.5.6) Like trade routes, missions are always successfully established." - Don't like this.. if a city is very religious, they shouldn't allow a missionary to establish a mission at all. Maybe the religious "defence" factor should come into play?

"2.2.5.8) indestructible missions" - Same as 2.2.5.6

"3.1.1.1) For each religion in a city, one unhappy citizen becomes content" - Why? This would be a disadvantage for the homogenous cities, and an advantage for the varied, and this does not make sense. Perhaps a decreased version of the State Religion bonus? If 2/3 of the people are of the same religion (any religion), 1 citizen becomes content.

"5.4) Propagandists" - I really like this idea! (maybe because it was mine? Nah..


General comments:

Pros: I kind of like this system, since it fits closely with what I was suggesting originally. No specific religions recieve bonuses (yay!), and the religion acts as a kind of nationalism. Kosovo could be simulated, as could East Timor. And, with Athiesm as a religion (please!), we could get the equivilant of communist mations not just dscouraging religions, but incouraging athiesm, as the "state religion."

Cons: Seems a bit too old. The system makes perfect sense in the ancient era, and in the middle ages, but what about today. There are a lot of religious people today, but how much of an effect does it have? I can't say I'm unhappier for not being in a majority religion. There aren't too many "prophets" around today (except the Scientology guy, and maybe the leader of Falun Gong.) Emerging religions with prophets are called "cults" today. Religion simply has a much reduced effect in the day to day runnings of civilizations today.

Good work! I was expecting to see a horrible mess, but it is actually something I can accept in the game!

Oh, and Stefu? Please add to the current list, and don't destroy it. It's good work!
<font size=1 face=Arial color=444444>[This message has been edited by NotLikeTea (edited September 12, 1999).]</font>