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**yin26** · September 13, 1999, 11:34

It seems like a good time for me to make a public addition to our Religion summary issues. I've been watching from the background to see what you guys come up with, and now Stefu has asked if he was too obedient in his duties--other than not being regular enough, of course.

First, we should all try to remember that this is supposed to be fun! I know, I know, it's also a lot of work, and in the case of the Religion thread, a community forms, and people become attached to their systems that they have worked so hard to define. I understand this completely. In fact, it's really wonderful to see.

Then it comes to the summary time, and now things get even tougher...

I want to go on record as supporting ALL of the TMs who have done summaries. It's really hard and often thankless work. I ended up doing a few summaries last time on version 1 of the list, so I know just how hard it can be to stay true to the people's posts but still summarize.

So:

Stefu, it sounds like you are willing to edit your summary according to people's feedback. We should always remember--Brian has the older material still, and what we should strive to do is give him a view of how you guys have expanded (or even rejected) some of the first material. That's what Brian means by a "living" document, if I understand him correctly.

Raingoon has also worked very hard on a summary, but he is not the TM. I was ready to send two summaries if that was necessary, but it seems like Stefu is willing to work with you guys and has apologized for not being so active. Can I suggest:

1) Please try to combine your summaries. Work on a compromise. If you've decided against something in the first list, that's fine. Ideas can mature.

2) If this still doesn't work, we can always send two summaries, but that's not really the point. We should be a team.

Stefu: As TM, the hardest part of your job is listening carefully to what the posters want. But please listen carefully so we can avoid sending two summaries. You are TM of a very important and active thread, so try to get your energy back up to redo a lot of your first summary if that's what's best.

Raingoon, M@ni@c, etc.: As you can see, Stefu admits to not always being very clear and not being as active as he should have been (which has made it much harder for him to produce a summary that reflects your input). But let's try to work with him now and produce a great summary! Anyway, with this much great material on such a tough topic, we should expect some challenges...

We still have time to get this all in good shape, and I think this will end up being one of the best summaries ever done. I, too, would love to see a Civ in which Religion plays an important role. You guys are VERY close to giving Brian some amazing ways to do that.

Yin

[This message has been edited by yin26 (edited September 13, 1999).]

**Stefu** · September 13, 1999, 11:43

Must...get...energy!

Well, hopefully it's only removing old ideas (If you like), non-agreed ideas and those in Big Summary, and including the Big Summary in same post. Is this okay?

**will I** · September 13, 1999, 17:21

My vote is that whichever summary is used, the comprehensive religion summary be included as a whole. Raingoon, M@ni@c, MBrazier, and myself labored mightily to meet Brian's request that we indicate how our proposal would effect the game. We also tried to consider how the various ideas of religion could be melded into a system that would mesh well with Civ2 and the most significant Civ3 suggestions. In the process, we modified the different elements of the plan to make them work together.

I felt that Stefu did a great job summarizing the many different ideas that were raised during the course of the religion debate. However, many of us abandoned particular ideas during the course of that debate. I think Stefu erred in included ideas that were later abandoned by their authors. In addition, I think that his original summary did violence to our efforts by chopping up our comprehensive model into a list of ideas. Since the individual concepts were molded to fit together, they didn't make anywhere near as much sense when taken apart. And, with a great deal of respect to his efforts, he missed some pretty significant points. After reviewing the effort, I concluded that it would be vastly simpler to present our joint model separately than to try to modify Stefu's model both to correctly reflect our ideas and to present them in a way that showed their interrelationships.

Therefore, I think Raingoon's summary, which includes both our model and the various alternate proposals listed in Stefu's original summary, more accurately reflects the results of the religion discussion.

That said, I want to reiterate that I think Stefu did a darn good job in pulling together the welter of ideas on the thread. He fell down only in thinking that our model was a list of disparate ideas. I think Raingoon's effort corrects that error, while preserving the majority of Stefu's good work.

**raingoon** · September 13, 1999, 18:24

I can agree with Will's post. For the purposes of what he's saying, the comprehensive religion model consists of sections 1 through 4 of my summary. If Stefu will just paste those sections into his, without editing or breaking them up I'll be satisfied.

**loinburger** · September 13, 1999, 20:39

Stefu:

First, let me say that I would not wish your job upon my worst enemy. I salute you.

Second, COMBAT was running into some similar difficulties as those that you are now facing, I think. The problems you're facing are several orders of magnitude greater than the ones that COMBAT faced, but they're still similar. In COMBAT there were several posters who had proposed entirely revamped combat systems for Civ III, while other posters suggested tweaks and minor improvements to the combat system but were in favor of keeping the rest of the combat system pretty much intact. Instead of cutting up the complete combat systems which had been proposed, the summary instead kept the combat systems intact while creating a separate section listing the proposed tweaks to the game.

DO NOT take Raingoon's creation of a summary as an insult, which I'm worried you may be doing. Instead, just honor his and the other model-maker's wishes and put his summary into the main summary intact, listing it as "a complete Religion model proposed by some posters." Then proceed with summarizing whatever else there is to summarize. I admit to being completely ignorant as to what the Religion thead contains, nor do I know all of the details regarding this holy war raging between the TM and the posters, so I am fully aware that I am being presumptuous. I'm just saying, look at the COMBAT summary and see what was done there, and do the same thing to Religion. That way everybody becomes happy.

BTW, the proposed combat systems in COMBAT were given in summary form, much like the proposed Religion model was.

**raingoon** · September 14, 1999, 00:48

Stefu, Yin --

Unfortunately, it is not okay yet. Look, this has become somewhat embarrasing. Be that as it may, I can stand to be a little embarrassed. Other people besides me have worked hard on the thread, and that requires some respect on my part. Hence, I have and will continue to try to get the summary to Brian that I think best represents everyone's ideas. I just spent a great deal of my valuable time trying to do just that, and this is a big step backwards, in my opinion. But I will take a step backwards if it means going forward.

Look, please -- PLEASE -- I beg you to read my summary and respond to it. It is extremely frustrating when the TM does not respond to your thread's posts. Is there anything in there you feel does not belong? Is there anything you would add?

P.S. Stefu, if you respond directly to this post I promise I will never, ever, NEVER use another "grumpy face" again.

[This message has been edited by raingoon (edited September 13, 1999).]

**raingoon** · September 14, 1999, 00:48

Ibid.
[This message has been edited by raingoon (edited September 13, 1999).]

Announcement

Some questions of Religion thread answered. Raingoon, M@ni@c, read!

Some questions of Religion thread answered. Raingoon, M@ni@c, read!

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