MOVEMENT, SUPPLY, ETC. (ver1.0): Hosted by don Don

[Lancer]

Before anti-biotics came into use the death rate in units from disease was greater than that caused by combat.This could happen all at once,as in the case of yellow fever.The old ships of the line and frigates were also prone to scurvy.The English learned from the Chinese that carrying the juice of limes (which contained vitamin C) reduced the problem,but they also found that people started calling them Limeys.
I'll edit this later,I gotta eat and go to work.

[Druid2]

"As we would all agree, it was stupid to allow one lone phalanx travel across a continent without any damage."

Really? An army can forage for food and supplies in any inhabited, nonbarren environment.

As for traveling 'undamaged' ..Why not? If you're going to allow a unit to "repair" while resting in a non-city square -- pretty unrealistic, but certainly makes the game more playable.

-------
While I'm on the subject, I am opposed to a change to make exploration more difficult and/or dangerous. In SMAC, units that are sent on exploration missions rarely survive, as it is, due to encounters with hostile, indigenous lifeforms. Make them less mobile and/or damaged in some way will really cripple exploration... making contact w/ other civs less likely, making diplomacy and trade less, etc. etc.

In fact, I'd like to see the "Explorer" unit continued and/or updated. [He's the 50% faster, non combat unit from Civ2.]

[darkgrendel]

Why supply lines in the first place? Why not just give all units ranges, like aircraft? That way, it could be made so Armors and Mech Infs would have to get back to cities/bases/whatever quicker, while Settlers and Partisans could go for much longer distances without returning. "Fuel" (or whatever you want to call it) could be replenished simply by going through a base, or it could take a whole turn. Units could be made to go out to the units and bring them supplies - that could be a whole new use for caravans.
And for movement, I think that
a)Each turn should be a year
b)Units should (for the most part) retain their current movement rates
c)There should be more units specifically for exploratory purposes
d)There should be ground-and-air-moving unit carriers, like troop transports
e)Railroads should not be able to allow units to move infinite distances along them (there should be Highways after them that are faster, and there shouldn't really be anything that lets units move- theoretically- forever)
f)Airports should be able to do more airlifts a turn, like at least two or three
g)(On a mostly unrelated topic) Ships should be able to travel up and down rivers
If I said anything REALLY stupid, please exuse me: it's 1:26 AM.

[Kropotkin]

My ideas on supply in civ3; to minimize micromanagement and still make it somewhat realistic is this:

Let the computer divide your country into administrative subcountires. A subcountry would be all cities that are connected by road and/or have city areas next to each other. If you are lucky your entire empire is only one subcountry. In the subcountry all food, ammo and fuel can be pooled and supply any friendly units in the area, that is, in a city-area or on or besides a road that leads to the subcountry and not besiged by enemy forces. If your country is divided by a desert or mountains then there would be two subcounties but you could build a road to conncet then thus making the two into one. This road would be important to guard since a clever enemy could send a army to cut of the supplyline .Roads would be important during a campaing so roads could be destroyed by the retreating side or maybe in the battle for a tile, i think that there is a need for a combatengineer unit for this... The area supported by the subcountry would be the area that is accessible to a city in the subcountry and all roads connected to the subcountry plus one tile in every direction so that really small gaps wouldn't be a problem and connecting for example small islandcities next to the mainland.

If you want to move supplies from one continent to another you would start a supplyrout between two cites and stating what supplies you want to move between the two and the quantities. Instead of forcing you to build a unit to move them from one city or another or start a traderuote o'la C:ctp that is pirated by enemies two seconds later the cites would send aways a convoy-unit that woldn't cost anything (maybe a small amount of gold) to build and is sent by the city automaticly. those units could be sunk by enemies but each convoy wouldn't have a large amount of cargo and the city would send more than one per turn so that some would slip trough.

Food and ammo (=production) would be taken from the cities in the subcountry but fuel would be a resource like tobacco or whatever. But the resource wouldn't be like other resources that are few and almost never are at the same place. Instead the computer would would make larger areas were there is oil, maybe 5-10 tiles, to see thenm you could press some special button (O=oil perhaps) and the areas with oil would be highlighted (some might be hidden and not found until later on in the game). In these areas you would be able to build a special tile improvment called oilfield and would produce fuel. This way war could be started just to conquer areas with oilfields. The same could be used for iron ore so that a country can't build steelunits without some basic resources.

(Modified text from Topic:CIV3 Suppliying your troops in the general/suggestions forum)

[Druid2]

Why cant I just entrust someone in My bureaucracy to handle the supply issues? This is a Strategy game, after all.. not a battlefield tactical game. There are plenty of games out there that focus on how far a tank can move with x units of fuel and y units of ammo...

In the early ages, armies could more easily find supplies in the field, not needing a city. And in the current or future times, technology was available to the bureaucrats to bring supplies forward.. or even airlift 'em long distances.

Ok, the story of getting fuel to Patton in France was an engaging one, and a logistical puzzle. And logistics is important to a field army... but why add uncounted level s of complexity just for supply?

How does it help the game be more enjoyable?

[Kropotkin]

How does it help the game be more enjoyable?

Well, i think it would make it more enjoyable since it would simulate to some degree the imporance of some resources and forcing civ's to start wars that they don't want to just to ensure future survival.

[Eggman]

I agree that railroads should not allow infinite movement. No road improvement should allow infinite movement. The computer in Civ2 can be easily overwhelmed with howitzers ONLY using their own rail system against them. You don't even lose any howitzers because there is no counterattack. What's the value of air power when I can strike anywhere just using cheaper and more effective ground units with greater range?

I also agree that *some* ships should be able to travel up at least *some* rivers. There may have to be made a distinction between major (that can be sailed) and minor (that can't) rivers. Also, there would have to be ratings on which ships can navigate rivers (frigates, etc.) and those that can't (battleships).

For supply lines, if this gets too complicated, Civ3 will become predominantly a logistics game. Logistics is inherently boring. I gave up on VGA Planets because I simply hated trying to coordinate my efforts to get my ships enough fuel. It took up more time than all my other tasks combined! My recommendation: KEEP IT SIMPLE! A maximum range from the nearest friendly city and/or supply base will do nicely. You can't go striking deep into the heart of the enemy without supplies. Perhaps even introduce a "supply" unit later on to extend that range. Something like this will be much easier to deal with.

[Harel]

While this issue was covered somewhat, I belive this need to be re-covered.
I am talking about the size of the maps and the number of movements.
I think that CIV is all about history. A fun game, but it should accuratly picture history.
I won't even talk about what a 250x250 map does to the Earth map. Spain is now one box. I could yell crazy. I'll just say, for the record, at least 1000x1000 map. MINIMUM. More would be nice ( NO, it won't be too big. You dont HAVE to play such a big map. You should have the option, however ).
Movement, however must be atleast 4-5 boxs.
I will explain why.
Infantry moves one box. So, it doesnt matter what terrian is passes ( not-mentioning roads, ofcourse ).
However, the effects of terrain-passing infantry along history is critical.
Alpine units? What about them? Why should such a critical unit be important if THEY WILL ALWAYS MOVE AT THE SAME SPEED?
This is SO un-historic, its crazy. You once train units to pass swamps, hills and forests, because that ment victory.
In civ engine, however, its useless.

[russellw]

I agree with Eggman about the plea to keep the logistics rules simple. Make it something like MOO, where the units have a range from a city and where you can add on extra "fuel tanks" (trucks/mules) in the Design Workshop (if there is one). Of course, let certain units (explorers, spys, early foraging armies?) go an infinite distance.

Of course, make a mobile supply unit. You'll need one if you ever want to make a landing on another continent.

Not that much micromanagement, but it still lets you make that bold move to kill a continental invasion by cutting off the supply train.

[Brother Greg]

Why not make foraging a unit ability, if you are so set on it. Does nothing other than keeps a unit supplied. Other than that, I do like the idea of limited range more than any other suggestion. Micromanaging supply routes is NOT my idea of a fun pastime, and would scare a lot of people away from the game. This is an empire game, not a strategic wargame...

If implemented as above, terrain such as deserts and mountains could afect foraging. More than one turn in a desert, even with foraging, causes damage (losses). Simple, and yet not a real pain in the butt. You don't have to keep supply routes open, but you do have to keep an eye on your movement.

Then you could have a supply caravan as another ability. Lets units last longer in hostile terrain.

Though, personally, I really don't know if even that would make for fun in the game. It might be more a pain than anything...

[Harel]

Foraging is very historical, true, but very painful to micromanage. no doubt about it. I find it hard to belive Firaxis would even consider putting it in, and that is what it's all about in the end.
People are talking about "distance from town" or "supply bases". But we allready have a firm, fixed line with decides distance from towns, one we allready know to apprear in CIV III. Borders.
Yeah, Borders. Let's just say, that while a unit is inside your borders, it can normaly be supplied. That's easy enough.
Once outside the borders, it will still consume maintance cost, but it will have a minus to fighting, a growing minus of -1% for every box traveled ( like fuel in planes ). This bonus will dis-appear once back inside borders, or when it's "healed" by being close to a supplier.
Stop with micromanaging, units won't go and forage food, or you will have to supply every unit at a time with a supplier. Just along it's 3 boxs away from a supplier.

[russellw]

Well, the reasons I want supply to be modeled in some way are:

1. Defeating a superior invasion force with a brilliant flanking move to cut the supply line/supply city/beachead.

2. Reflecting the dependence of modern armies on oil.

Maybe oil should be abstracted by slider bars with military/city/reserve allocations (should be on ECONOMY thread?). Then, an oil shortfall for the military just starts to shut down the units farthest out and works its way in.

[CormacMacArt]

How about relating the distance a unit can "safely" travel to the level of corruption that a city would at that distance? If a unit went too far, it might simply disappear or join another civ.

[ember]

To solve the problem of slow movment why not use a deployment system. It is only useable between places withing your empire, but it is good for rushing troops to the front.

In my deployment system, all units built are added to the deploy list, and any unit with full movment (and health?) can be added. after you have moved your pieces for the game you choose where to deploy your units in the deploy list. They can be deployed in any allied city, base or certain naval vessels (like carriers, transports). The deployed units become active at the beggining of the next turn (maybe without any mp left, for balance), but if the location they are being deployed to is taken, they are destraoyed, without offering any deffense, to prevent people from instantly defending their cities / bases.

cities and bases that are under siege have a limit on the units deployed to them (depending on how well surrounded, and size, etc)

This is the only way for air units to be moved in my system. They bombard from where they are based.

See my thread <A HREF="http://apolyton.net/forums/Forum28/HTML/000048.html">A new civilization concept?</A>
for details...

------------------
"Any technology, sufficiently advanced,
is indistinguishable from magic"
-Arthur C. Clark

[This message has been edited by ember (edited May 27, 1999).]

[MBD]

If you're going to model supply, then you also should have to take communications into account. It never made any sense that I as an ancient ruler could send a unit halfway around the globe and know exactly what he was doing and what he has discovered every step of the way. And in fact, there probably was a high mortality rate among explorers. So maybe you should only be able to give exploring units some general instructions (like "go west until you reach the ocean") and you only get to see the results of the exploration if the unit successfully returns. In the meantime, he is out of your control.