GRAPHICS (ver1.1): Hosted by evil conquerer

[EnochF]

Whenever people start mentioning Age of Empires too much in this thread, I get nervous. I don't want Civ III to be like Age of Empires. I don't want a real-time game. I don't want the combat system to be so mired in the vagaries of ancient units that it can't truly grasp the abilities of a submarine, a nuclear missile or a spy plane. I don't want my caravans unable to navigate a maze of randomly-generated cliffs. I don't want to spend three-quarters of my time fighting wars against aimlessly aggressive enemies.

Fog of war, I could take or leave. On one hand, it makes sense. On the other hand, it made Call to Power annoying to play sometimes. (Why can't I see my road? Is there nobody walking on it in the space of five years?) Watch towers (called listening posts and radar posts in CtP) I could also take or leave. If there's going to be fog of war in Civ III, we'll have to include listening posts and the GlobeSat and all.

When it comes right down to it, there's only one thing about Age of Empires that might work in Civ III, and that's the animated units. I don't personally look forward to having animated units because it'll make graphic customization a real *****, but I do know this: AoE had well-animated units that looked realistic and didn't take up nine-tenths of your RAM in the process.

But that's all. I don't want priests that chant and convert the enemy, and I don't want "wood" and "stone" resources, and I don't want goofy cheat features, and I don't want "catchphrases" for all the military units, and I don't want fishing vessels. Bugger all that.

[Bubba]

Dear EnochF,

I just want to make sure that you didn't think I was advocating that Civ III should be just like AOE. I meant the graphics, unit representations and landscape not the RT, hunter/gather format, chanting priests that are geared to the classical world.

On the issue of the cliff and caravans, it wouldn't be a problem if a CTP trade system is implemented and would have the benefit of forcing enemies to land on beach type terrain.

[evil conquerer]

<h2>Final Summary</h2>
All posts after this one should go in the graphics v2.0 thread. This is the final summary before the first mailing of the list to BR.

These ideas are in no particular order.

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EnochF: The map should have different styles depending on the age it's in. For example, it could be a papyrus scroll during the rennaisance, a map with a compass arrow and fancy European script during the rennaisance, and a viewscreen in the future (JT).
Potential problems/caveats: May make map hard to read.

Ecce Homo: Animate the water tiles.
Problems: May make it hard to customise the map tiles
Suggested fix: Have an animated format for the default that is replacable with a common 2D (.pcx?) format for customization.

Many people: Bring back the throne room!. But make it customizable according to which civilization you have (for example, the Japanese have samurai armor hanging on the wall, the Europeans have knight armor, etc.) Some people also support the palace instead of the throne room, or something completely different.
Problems: May make it hard to customize civlizations.
Potential solutions: In the civlization's text file, have an option to say which kind of throne room is used.

JT: Show wonders in the map grid somewhere within the city's radius.
Problems: May make it hard to see what's in that square.
Solutions: Make the wonder show up under units and special resources(?), make wonder invisible with terrain viewing key (T in SMAC and Civ II).

Many people: Either make the units 2D (unacceptable in a modern game, IMNSHO) or have an alternative 2D format to customize the units with. In SMAC, for example, a historical MOD pack is impossible because there is no way to modify the unit pix ("those chariots look pretty silly with particle impactors" ).
Suggested fix: Provide an alternate 2D graphics file (.pcx?) to provide for the customization of units.

Many people: City architecture should be cilivization-specific.
Implementation: Provide a setting in the civilization's text file to determine the architecture style. This could be the same setting that determines the throne room and unit(?) styles.

Many people: The graphics should not slow down the game too much or require ultra-fast machines in order to run acceptably. For example, the animation for founding a new city in Civ's I and II (something unfortunately missing in SMAC) would just be a pain if there wasn't a way to skip it. The high-res graphics in SMAC ran unacceptably slow on my machine (PII-300 w/ 64 MB, in case you're wondering), but the low-res units looked just fine and ran much better.
Solution: Make the graphics as good as you can without slowing down the game.

evil conquerer: If the units are modular (as in SMAC), the different sections of the unit should be clearly visible. I didn't have this problem, but some people complained that the different weapons and special abilites were hard to tell apart.
Possible solution: Weapons and special abilities may have to be exaggerated slightly on the map screen.

EnochF: If terraforming can be done from inside the city, there should be an icon that indicates work in progress on that square.
Potential problem: Might obscure the resources in that square.

Debate: Should the units be 2D or 3D?
2D isometric: Would make the units easier to edit. Would also make the units move faster (exception: CTP ).
True 3D: Anything less would be unacceptable for a new game. The units would simply look better. An alternate 2D format for editing could be made available relatively easily.

Debate: Should the world be 3D too?
2D isometric map, flat terrain (a la Civ2): Would be easier to edit, would be faster to draw on the screen.
2D isometric map, 3D terrain with altitude (a la SMAC): Altitude is an important concept that the game must have. It looks cool, too.
Would be hard to edit, sometimes obscures units behind a mountain.
True 3D map: Two words. Awesome graphics.
May be hard to get a good sense of proportion or distance. May make terrain really hard to edit. Note: I don't mean a 3D spherical map (that's not my department). I'm just talking about how the map looks.

Icedan: Check out <a href="http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Keep/3402/Civ.htm">http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Keep/3402/Civ.htm</a> for a quick sketch of what the 3D graphics could look like.
Potential problem: No sense of distance at all.
Solution: I dunno, maybe some kind of gridline system.

Trachmyr: A style of graphics similar to Lords of the Realm II.

Rusty Nail: If fog of war is on, don't make it too hard to see the terrain through the fog of war. For units and terrain, clarity is very important.

evil conquerer: Bring back the city view! It gives the user a sense of satisfaction, even if it is completely useless.

Eggman: Change the monocolor shield to a flag with a symbol on it. For example, the British would have a union jack, etc.
Potential problem: Customization would be hard.
Solution: Leave a space in the faction file for a customizable flag.

Andy B: Make cities look different based on their position on the globe (ex. glacier cities have little igloos, etc.)
Potential problem: May conflict with the idea to have unique cities for different civilizations.
Solution: Pick one, Firaxis . If you can combine the two, that would be awesome.

Fugi the Great: If the graphics are unbearably slow (i.e. CTP) then have a key to speed up the animation of units when they're on a long GOTO, by skipping frames, substituting a 2D unit graphic, or by something else. Make sure you can still see where the unit is going, though.

Kris Huysmans: All these civilization-specific graphics will take forever to edit (custom flags, custom units, custom cities, etc.)
Solution (evil conquerer): The user can, in the civilization's .txt file, either specify which type of graphics to use (i.e. oriental, middle-eastern, european, etc.) or include a 2D graphics file in a common format (.pcx, .gif, etc.) that has all the custom graphics for that civ in it.

Bubba: Make the graphics like AoE.

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If I missed anybody's please tell me and I'll gladly put it in. If you disagree with any of the suggested fixes or anything on the list, please feel free to post here with your suggestion.

Credits:
JT
Ecce Homo
Pythagoras
Fugi the Great
meowser
Mo
evil conquerer
Shining1
Trachmyr
EnochF
Icedan
E
Atahualpa
longchamp
don Don
Andy B
Depp
Eggman
Darkstarr
LordStone1
Doo1284
Kris Huysmans
Bubba

[EnochF]

No problem, Bubba. Looks like all we disagree about is the landscape, then. (But the Radical Ideas thread is another story...)