Politically incorrect or too sensitive?

[Roman]

I really couldn't care less what colour or gender my advisors in a game assume. Lets not be too sensitive, people.

[ChrisShaffer]

Aside from the advisors, the citizens are all male too! Don't any women live in this world? A bit of cultural sensitivity wouldn't hurt a game that's promoting the introduction of culture as one of the best new features, eh?

[CWM]

Hate to sound racist but why is it that whenever anyone wants a portrayal of the world that is not all white-male they are labelled as "politically correct"

I'm not sure about this "advisor" thing if these are just the guys who wrote the game but beyond that isn't it common sense for a game that represents so many different people to have more than one skin tone for the in-game units. Thats not politically correct but just a true reflection of the world as it is.

Normally I would not say anything. I would just count "same skin tone"
as keeping the game simpler. It may seem odd to me to see a guy with light skin as a "zulu warrior" but it was no major issue. What I have a gripe with is the notion that somehow wanting the game to reflect "reality" in this one case is somehow wrong or being too sensitive.

Wonder what would be the reaction if tomorrow Firaxis announced all characters in the game would have black skin. Some of the people who are saying it dosen't matter and it's just being too sensitive would be the very ones saying that should change.

It reminds me of how people today will call a movie politically correct and unrealistic if you show more than one race (especially black) in a historical setting but they never say anything about older movies that had whites as everything from egyptians to orientals to indians.

[This message has been edited by CWM (edited May 16, 2001).]

[SerapisIV]

quote: Originally posted by Grumbold on 05-15-2001 11:54 AM That accounts for the advisors, Serapis IV, and is quite valid as a reason provided it is clear to anyone who RTFM that there IS a reason. How about the population heads, the unit designs etc? Do the Zulu have to fight with negro impis but aryan everything else? [This message has been edited by Grumbold (edited May 15, 2001).]

With regards to the pop heads, if you look at the screenshots screen, they're using the same heads as Civ2, the same exact pics, which says to me placeholder art. Which is good, because I agree, there should be asian people for asian cultures, white, for euro cultures, dark for the zulus, etc. and for customized games you should be able to select which you want. Or pop heads should come from a random pool of variable culture heads and they just randomly get shown, with no regards to which civ it is. Thats an option to make everyone happy, while satisfying no one.


A more important feature in my mind would be the All-Elvis civilization, goddamn it where's THE King as an advisor?

[Diablo, Bro. of Mephisto]

Oh my gosh. While most of us are worried about the AI, and Diplomacy problems, you guys are arguing about how the units skin color will look!

give me a break, actually, give Firaxis a break.

lol. I just think thats hilarious that you guys are bothered by it.

I mean, sure, I would like different looking units and stuff, like dark skin for the american indian units and such, but, you guys seem really bothered by it. lol.
[This message has been edited by Diablo, Bro. of Mephisto (edited May 16, 2001).]

[Gammaray fan]

Let Firaxis concentrate on bigger problems!
Besides, its not practicable. Sure, you could have black units for African civs, but then it becomes impossible. Everyone from Middle-Eastern civs, to South and SE Asian civs, to Pacific Island civs (Fiji) has brown skin! Grouping them all as 'brown' skin tone misrepresents them just as much as making them all white. Additionally, NE asians have pale skin (not pink mind you but 'white') and 'skin' tones get them grouped with Europeans just as is the case in civ2. Additionally, the English actually have 'pink' skin for the most part, but if Firaxis implement this, they will be faced with a barrage of complaints! (it always strikes me as interesting that the English pretend that they are 'white' like say the Polish are, while pretending that NE Asians were 'almost white' (real quote) or 'honorary whites', when plainly some had whiter skin than them!)Thus if the ethnic requirements are blatantly ignored, there will be less problems.

[Theben]

quote: Originally posted by Diablo, Bro. of Mephisto on 05-16-2001 12:54 AM I mean, sure, I would like different looking units and stuff, like dark skin for the american indian units and such, but, you guys seem really bothered by it. lol.

Actually I've SEEN what passes for "racial diversity" made by willing but not too able mod makers, both at Allard's site & at Civfanatics. And I've come to the conclusion that I'd rather have a professional artist draw the initial artwork, rather than let some 14 year-old get out his Photoshop paintgun.

[Theben]

quote: Originally posted by Gammaray fan on 05-16-2001 01:58 AM Let Firaxis concentrate on bigger problems! Besides, its not practicable. Sure, you could have black units for African civs, but then it becomes impossible. Everyone from Middle-Eastern civs, to South and SE Asian civs, to Pacific Island civs (Fiji) has brown skin! Grouping them all as 'brown' skin tone misrepresents them just as much as making them all white. Additionally, NE asians have pale skin (not pink mind you but 'white') and 'skin' tones get them grouped with Europeans just as is the case in civ2. Additionally, the English actually have 'pink' skin for the most part, but if Firaxis implement this, they will be faced with a barrage of complaints! (it always strikes me as interesting that the English pretend that they are 'white' like say the Polish are, while pretending that NE Asians were 'almost white' (real quote) or 'honorary whites', when plainly some had whiter skin than them!)Thus if the ethnic requirements are blatantly ignored, there will be less problems.

That's why I said "major ethnic groups". Obviously we won't have every single one, but one for Europeans, one for Africans, Asians, S. & N. American natives should just about cover it.

[Adm.Naismith]

quote: Originally posted by SerapisIV on 05-15-2001 10:03 AM I think the cultural sensitivity took a back seat to Firaxis having a little fun with their game and putting themselves into it, thats why all the advisors are white males, they're the honchos at Firaxis. Screw the cultural sensitivity, if the guys who put the sweat into the game want their mug in the design and happen to all be the same gender and color, who cares.

I already underlined that:

quote: the limit with CIV III advisors seems that Firaxis is using Team people Faces to joke with us. I forget how many ladies work at Firaxis, but they must obtain a place somewhere in the game.

Aren't women involved in Firaxis? No wife? No girlfriends? They surely have mothers, at least!

Units are really too small to need any gender or skin difference, but advisors should. Once again, I don't care if they don't fit from start, as long as Firaxis give us the ability to import more. And a couple fresh, downloadable for free, some months after game launch. They'll look nice near Desktop theme and Screensaver page of Firaxis site

[markusf]

quote: Originally posted by Seeker on 05-15-2001 07:56 AM yeah the zulu rifleman should be black

People on this thread are just to funny. On one side you have lots of people screaming about civ specific units, and at the same time supporting racial charactorists/civ. So if the USA was renamed to Zululand would all the people suddenly be black? If i start in the northern hemisphere does my civ suddenly start out white? IT seems a lot of these discussions are started by people who have nothing better to do then sit around all day reading these forums, and trying to find something wrong with the development of civ3

[lord of the mark]

quote: Originally posted by ChrisShaffer on 05-15-2001 12:33 PM Aside from the advisors, the citizens are all male too! Don't any women live in this world? A bit of cultural sensitivity wouldn't hurt a game that's promoting the introduction of culture as one of the best new features, eh?

the citizens are all male - not mine!!!! or is it a TOT thing ?


LOTM

[lord of the mark]

quote: Originally posted by markusf on 05-16-2001 11:00 AM People on this thread are just to funny. On one side you have lots of people screaming about civ specific units, and at the same time supporting racial charactorists/civ. So if the USA was renamed to Zululand would all the people suddenly be black? If i start in the northern hemisphere does my civ suddenly start out white? IT seems a lot of these discussions are started by people who have nothing better to do then sit around all day reading these forums, and trying to find something wrong with the development of civ3

i dont think its the same people markusf. I dont care what color the pictures are, theyre just pictures. Trivia.

The notion that any civ can evolve to anything depending on location and strategy is OTOH, the basic lesson of Civ. It is the essence of civ.

LOTM

[Vrank Prins]

Most people here are talking about the skincolour of units.

What about the colour of the people shown in the cityscreens.

For instance:
- what if you add a "white" settler of your own CIV, to a "black" city you've conquered, to make that city grow;
- Or what if slaves (which is a CTP-feature I would like to be introduced in CIV) are added to one of your cities.
Will the cityscreen give a multicural impression then ?!.

Besides, could having a multicultural (city)population lead to racial clashes in a situation of civil unrest or uproar.

Though I like the multicultural idea, I can't see how Firaxis should do that.

[MrFun]

Just one minor comment -- Civilization II DID have one female advisor -- she was the advisor on reputation, I believe.

------------------
The Martians are out there somewhere, but where? Let's shoot lasers out into space until they shoot back.

[Jarouik]

quote: Originally posted by CWM on 05-16-2001 12:43 AM Hate to sound racist but why is it that whenever anyone wants a portrayal of the world that is not all white-male they are labelled as "politically correct" I'm not sure about this "advisor" thing if these are just the guys who wrote the game but beyond that isn't it common sense for a game that represents so many different people to have more than one skin tone for the in-game units. Thats not politically correct but just a true reflection of the world as it is. Normally I would not say anything. I would just count "same skin tone" as keeping the game simpler. It may seem odd to me to see a guy with light skin as a "zulu warrior" but it was no major issue. What I have a gripe with is the notion that somehow wanting the game to reflect "reality" in this one case is somehow wrong or being too sensitive. Wonder what would be the reaction if tomorrow Firaxis announced all characters in the game would have black skin. Some of the people who are saying it dosen't matter and it's just being too sensitive would be the very ones saying that should change.

When saying it would be politically correct, I certainly did not mean it in a derogatory sense. I find reflecting the world as it is, having different people show in the game, would be a great idea indeed. Apparently the word 'politically correct' now has such negative connotations that you cannot use it in a positive sense... but that is what I meant, and I think depicting reality in this sense in the game would be a very good thing - if calling it politically correct meant something else, I apologize, since apparently I do not know the English language and American culture well enough to tell that the term would be interpreted in a negative sense. As regards the game, barring the inclusion of different skin tones etc., I think they should make the faces colored somewhere between black and white, so the same people graphics would fit any nation.