The Realists' List

[The Rusty Gamer]

quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 on 05-20-2001 10:34 AM But you gotta love democracy in civ 2. All these money

Yes, it's almost too easy. It's just that this thread is titled The Realists List so I'm trying to be realistic about it.

[Bereta_Eder]

If you try to put too much realism into civ you'll ruin the game

[Mathphysto]

The problem with any government or institution is that it will eventually be manipulated and abused by the ambitious. As time goes on, more people figure out better ways to abuse the system for their own self-interested ends. American government was relatively pure in the first few decades, but as the 19th century wore on, corruption became more commonplace as the rich figured out how to use the politicians. It's a trend that has grown in scale, so that today America is as much a plutocracy as a democracy.

This isn't to say that democracy is flawed, but only that the combination of a democratic government and a capitalist economy is. The Founding Fathers saw the state as playing the role of a class mediator, in protecting the minority capitalists from the majority proletariat, and protecting the proletariat from abuse. However, corruption gives the state a role of class dominance, so that the agendas of the minority capitalists may be more important than the opinions of the majority proletariat.

A primary reason why America hasn't fundamentally changed to address this issue is the following. World War II brought a fear of the right (the Nazis), and the Cold War brought a fear of the left (the Soviets). After witnessing the tragic consequences of other forms of political economy, we are scared to do anything ourselves. In fact, without the economic booms of WWII and the Cold War, it's likely that fundamental change would indeed have ocurred in the US.

I would have to say that our system is less corrupt than the soviet communists (which wasn't really communism, but just state capitalism) or monarchies, etc, simply because no matter how much money the corporations give to the politicians, the politicos must still appeal to the people for support and power. Money may get a bill composed and ready to be voted on, but public polls, as much as money, are an important factor in a representative's decision to support or oppose the bill. There haven't been any other systems in which the public's opinions played such an important role. But, it's certainly a much lesser role than desired, and that means there is plenty of room for progress.

[Lord_Davinator]

Whats the Real chance of having realism implented?

Very small??

tiny??
you tell me....

[Mathphysto]

Does it matter?

Hey, we can at least pine away for some impossible dream, right? It may be a waste of time, but it's fun, and no more a waste of time than talking about or playing civ.

[Captain]

What? Four days and no new ideas on how to make civ more realistic?
I guess everyone's too busy discussing what the actual or suspected civ 3 game is going to be like.
We had some good ideas but it looks like it'll be at least civ 4 before some of these get addressed! Oh well, it was nice to dream for a while.

[Sava]

I got some realistic ideas for you.

1. Military Units - Built according to number of available men, available weapons, and training. Each Unit's attack, defense, range, and movement is based on what the unit is made up of. A WWII style infantry unit would require men and guns. Then the amount of training determines how well they fight and their guns determine range and attack power in each range, i.e. 100 attack in 0-50 yards, 50 attack in 50-100 yards.

2. Weapons - Just look at the past 100 years and the invention of modern weapons. Subtle features such as a bolt-action, smokeless gunpowder, metal cartriges have changed the face of firearms. I think you could have a building called a "weapons workshop" that would evolve over time. Then it would research advances in weapons AOE style. Then once a breakthrough is discovered, you could ship new weapons to the front lines and equip your troops with them Colonization style. Armies are just guys with weapons. The difference between Riflemen and a Legion is the type of weapons they use. Why waste time building a new unit when all they do is drop their sword and pick up a gun?

3. Science and its relationship with war - WWII created this technological era we are entering. WWII gave birth to Penicillin, ushering in this age of Pharmaceuticals. Rocketry, all of the US's smart bombs were developed from a Nazi rocket called the V-1. The Nazis invented the rocket. Atomic Energy, no explanation needed. The computer evolved from simple calculators and code breaking machines used in WWII and led to the invention of the microchip. Flight... WWI actually paved the way for the modern Jet Age, but in WWII both the Axis and Allies researched and improved flight. Did you know the Nazis invented the first Jet Engine? If the US had been a year late in their invasion, the Germans would have been able to mass produce there Jet Planes and win the Air War. Firearms... WWI actually saw the invention of the automatic rifle, but pre WWI weapons research focused on creating effective semi-automatic weapons. Most breakthroughs in science in the modern age have been due to war and the need for more advanced weapons and technology. Although industrial power won WWII, the United States used advanced German technology to shape the world we live in today.

4. Tile Impovements - Yeah, workers are what Civ 3 is going to be, but this is a more realistic approach for Civ 4. TI's should be almost completely AI controlled. Farms, roads, rail and mines should be built automatically by the AI based on the needs of the people. Military TI's (Radar stations, castles, bunkers, mine fields, air bases, etc) should be player controlled. TI's should also be built much like city improvements. And dependent on the workforce.

5. Transportation - For thousands of years, the Rhein river protected the Germany from the Greeks, the Romans, and almost the Allies in WWII. River travel is very under utilized in Civ games. You should not be able to cross a major river without a bridge, period. Destroying bridges has been a major part of warfare since warfare has been around. The Allies bombed bridges in WWII and effectively destroyed the German infrastructure. I'm very disappointed that you can't travel on rivers with sea units. Look at Chicago, for instance. Chicago has grown to become the third largest American city because of its water based transportation. The Illinois-Michigan canal connected Chicago to the Mississippi which connected Chicago to the Gulf of Mexico. And the St. Lawrence Seaway connected the entire Great Lakes Region to the Atlantic ocean. I want to see transportation more of a factor in city growth than farming. How many farms are around New York or Los Angeles? Food is shipped from around the world to these regions. Local farms don't necessarily determine a city's growth.

I'm tired of typing and I'm off to go see Pearl Harbor, so I'll continue later. Please guys, respond to my post.