Trade dominance ? let civ iii be a civ game.

[Tjoepie]

OIL:

The thing I would love to see is that you need oil to use "oil-using" units with fosile-fuel engines. This would make resources an important issue for diplomacy or even war in modern times (unless you specialise in other units as alternitive)! Let's face it in today's world natural resources make all the difference. Look at the Gulf War. Maybe even use oil to trade for things your nation could use from others and create a global resource economy. This way you could wage economic war as well by trying to monopolise resources. But in case of oil I think this should be used as an extra and that for example all nations should have a minimum per turn to operate a certain number of units according to the surface of their empire. It would be great if a civ could for example operate a number of "extra" units outside there cities using oil for each oil icon in their zone of control. That way one could have "reserve" units in cities or units without oil allocated to them in reserve, just like nations have in the real world! Artillery in a city could then be used to defend it but you can't move them unless you allocate oil for them. Maybe they could even save up oil in peacetime as a strategic reserve, just like until now I used gold as a reserve to build units fast when war breaks out. I think oil icons( just as any other resource) should then probably be hidden until the right tech is developed to only induce a resource race when the resource is dicovered and can be used. This way you might have a bad island nation build on desert and so lag behind. And then suddenly have a lot of oil at your disposal to take revenge. That seems very nice gameplay and realism to me for a civ game...
It's just an idea that might ad a level a realism to the game and some different strategies.

And as Sparky said, could resources get depleted?

Feel free to comment !

PS. Keep up the good work Dan & the whole Firaxis team! I've never been this excited about a game before!

Excuse me if my English spelling in not perfect...

[Roman]

What I would be interested in is whether you can stack resources of the same type for added benefit. Basically I think that if you mine 2 ivory you should get more benefit than if you mine 1 ivory. However, this would have to be capped at some point (say 3 resources of the same type) to force you to look for diverse types of resources.

[Maniac]

I’m glad my old religion-colleague Raingoon has removed the deadlock that had arisen in this topic discussion; now we can again talk in a productive way.

Apparently the most fervent opponents of the ‘mandatory’ system don’t like the fact you can’t build certain units at all without certain related resources, eg impossible to build a Legion without 10 Iron. By the following I want to propose a compromise.

You can always build every unit, whether it be a simple Legion (or whatever pre-gunpowder infantry unit) or a more advanced Tank unit without raw materials. The only difference is, that the strength of the unit would be slightly adapted depending on whether you use raw materials, and, if you use them, which material you use. That way, you still have the choice not to trade, and play isolated (communist economy should be excellent for that style). However, trading for certain resources will give you certain bonuses, while not making it absolutely necessary to survive military or economically.

Let’s give a concrete example:
Building a legion (just a general name, not meant to represent the Roman army type) would cost 40 Barrels/Energy Lightnings/Labour Points/Whatever-You-Want’s and optionally added to that 10 Raw Materials.
If you wouldn’t add any raw material to produce it, it is assumed you’re building the unit with some basic everywhere-available resource, eg Stone. Then you will get an infantry unit with stone clubs. They will get a –25% combat penalty in attack and defense.
If Wood’s used for your clubs, and consequently if you pay 10 Wood, it’s a minus 12% penalty. Copper (swords then, probably) would give the normal stats. When you use 7 Copper and 3 Tin (=Bronze) you get a +12% bonus and finally Iron would give +25%.

I’ll summarize the advantages. This compromise would:
1) create some diversity among the otherwise same-old boring ancient units, just as Morale had that effect in SMAC.
2) accurately represent the arms struggle in the Stone-, Copper-, Bronze-, and Iron Age, thus make the Ancient Age much more exciting, as is wanted by many people. Much better than Civ2 with just a stupid tech called ‘Bronze/Iron Working’.
3) keep trading of commodities.
4) not make these metals mandatory for unit construction. For example, well-trained Aztec wooden clubmen still stand a good chance of winning against Greek bronze swordsmen.

By the way, I think it’s not right to consider Wood as a basic resource and therefore not count it to the commodities. The desert-Egyptians imported wood, at a particular moment the English as well out of Sweden to maintain their large fleet. Not everywhere available, thus no ‘basic resource’. Stone I wóuld assume to be basic, cause even if you wouldn’t have stone available, you can *always* use another material, eg clay to build the same thing (Babylonians built their city wall out of clay cause they lacked stone). This doesn’t count for Wood. For example, have you ever seen a boat built with stone?


I also have another idea about Energy/Raw materials. No chance it would make it into Civ3, but I’ll post it anyway, for the sake of fun and discussion.
If in a city the energy production would rise above the raw material production, the energy would be lost, just as you already proposed. To make it concrete:

Rome, in its upper glory, has 15 citizens ( bit more than 1 million people in the Civ2 population system, which I don’t like btw. I prefer the linear 1 person = 10000 people. More about this later.). Thus creates 15 energy/barrels/lightnings/labour (actually I prefer the term labour, cause you always start with labour-producing citizens; their labour-output is just increased by energy resources and city improvements). Rome is sited near the Tiber, which means there are 3 river squares in the city radius, so because Rome has a Water Wheel, this means 3 extra Labour (under the condition each river tile is worked on), ultimately resulting in 18 Labour. The city is building a Phalanx, costing 20 Labour and 10 raw materials. But Rome only produces 5 Iron (or Copper, Wood,...) per turn, with no ability to get more Iron by trading. Thus the unit will always take at least 2 turns to complete. But then the city has produced 36 Labour! What happens to the other 16? Indeed, it disappears. But that means there are 8 people whose potential Labour is unused, in other words, they’re workless! Therefore I think a Labour abundance should create unhappiness, representing the unemployment problems through history. Dedicating a percentage of your tax income to Social Security (Civ1/2 Luxuries renamed) should mend this problem partially. A side-advantage of this idea would be that more population doesn’t always equal more power in the game. Indeed, having a population boom such as now in Africa would be disastrous if you aren’t prepared on it. It would at the same time increasing the realism of the game and its balance. Cause pop booming is one of the most unbalancing things there are in civ.


M@ni@c

[This message has been edited by M@ni@c (edited March 29, 2001).]

[lord of the mark]

quote: Originally posted by GaryGuanine on 03-29-2001 12:26 AM My favorite people are those who come into a discussion when it's nearly over, and take things out of context. Gary

oooh, me bad

sorry i offended you.

LOTM

[Cyclotron]

Maninac:

Indeed, the very essence of a supplementary system is what you described: a way to make trading advantageous but not strictly required.

You abviously understand our energy system well, and I think your idea of unemployment unhappiness is very interesting. But the thing is, people not working on your project would have other work, too...

I propose two additions to the energy model:
1) Specialists produce no labor points, as they are already occupied with their job and work no tiles.
2) Specialists, since they do not cause and are not affected by unhappiness, can be an alternative to unemployment troubles. Converting unemployed citizens into specialists may lower your shield/food bonuses temporarily, but will boost trade and stop unhappiness until you find a permanent solution.


To all:

I am encouraged by Firaxis' decision... It is obvious to me that they have not used stockpiing resources, and I believe this will be best for the game. They are using resources more than Civ2, another good step. Although our energy model will not be used, I am intrigued by it and I hope it will be of some future utility. I am satisfied that Firaxis knows what it is doing.

Thank you Youngsun, Gary, and Raingoon for putting up with me and hopefully altering the course of this great game for the better, I think Firaxis did use at least a few of our elements. I know Firaxis will not disappoint us, since it is true that Civers gave the game input!

Good luck, godspeed guys!

------------------
Any shred of compassion left in me was snuffed out forever when they cast me into the flames...

[GaryGuanine]

No problem, Lord.

Gary

[EnochF]

With or without stockpiling, I'm equally psyched.

They've got a decent City Screen with all the information packed concisely onto one page, they've got a killer City View, and they've brought back the High Council of Advisors! Plus they're using resources to flesh out production and trade, and there's a new game value of culture!

No one can stop me from buying this game!

[Lawrence of Arabia]

We should do away with this stockpile and this whatever u wants to build a unit. You should just simplifie it so that if there is this iron resorce somewhere in your civs border, you can automatically build a legion. its that simple. If i wanted to stockpile or pay 40 labour, id go play AoE2. But i want to play civ, and this new culture/ economic victory comdition seems cool. yes, trade is an integral part of the civ experience. In civ2, i was very reluctant to switch my production of a city to caravan, because it would waste a few turns. Firaxis should use the ctp style trade. It should lose the stockpile/cost thingy and make it more easier to start wars over trade. Also, if you have any oil you can run any motorized unit. if you hve any unranium, you can run any nuke you want. Trade should at least be on par with war/diplomacy

------------------
Its okay to smile; you're in America now

[garciamed]

quote: Originally posted by supremus on 03-22-2001 01:40 PM Don't be stupid. If you get a history book, you will understand that TRADE started it all. The primitive men built the CIVILIZATIONS because of trade; when they started to produce more food than what they needed, they started to trade it, and this started all the history. The BIG civilizations of the history were big traders (Egypt, Greece, England) while the only-military CIVILIZATIONS dissapeared. Even Rome lasted so much time because of the trade. So, trade is really important in a civ game, and I hope they improve it in civ 3 because in civ 1 and 2 it wasn't as good as it had to be. GET A HISTORY BOOK AND DISCOVER WHY TRADE IS SO IMPORTANT, Spain became powerful because of the trade with América, England destroyed the French because they were the big traders, Alexandria in Egypt became the most important city in the world because of trade. Do you understand now? Germán García, BUENOS AIRES, ARGENTINA

[Jer8m8]

quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui on 03-23-2001 01:19 AM I disagree very much. Trade SHOULD be emphasized. Why? Because trade is utterly horrible in Civ2, SMAC, CtP, etc. Trade is and has been extremely important. From the 1500s on it has competed with war for what is most important for countries (trade was how to get the most money). Civ is and should not be a war game. If you want historical accuracy (Civ games being historically accurate, what a laugher) play Europa Universalis. There you'll see how utterly ridiculous Civ2's war engine is and how important trade was.

i agree with him/her 100%. even though trade was not important in the middle ages, it was important later on, and is still important now. the u.s alone makes billions, if not trillions of dollars a year from trade.


i do not like the way trade is used in civ 2. it's private buiusness that does the trading, not the government. for there to be accurate, and important trade in civ 3, private buisness must be included.

[TheSocialist]

Well it seems from the preview that the trade model will be upgraded placing an increased emphasis on trade. It also appears that they will include resources. They look like they are doing a good job. But, I can't stand when I see historical inaccuracy. The Netherlands was not the first trading super power. Far from it, the first trading super power i can think of is either the Phoenecians or the Minoans. Trade was also extremely important during the middle ages. It is what led to beginning of the Renaissance, and the rise of the Italian city-states. Trade led to the Age of Exploration and the discovery of the New World. England was strong and rich because of trade. The reason they built they're fleet was to protect they're merchant ships. Trade has been the driving force behind a lot of major events and doesn't deserve to be trivialized.
[This message has been edited by TheSocialist (edited April 05, 2001).]

[TheSocialist]

Double Post
[This message has been edited by TheSocialist (edited April 05, 2001).]

[TheSocialist]

Triple Post
[This message has been edited by TheSocialist (edited April 05, 2001).]

[supremus]

Well, well, well... I spent one week fishing and what I see here after come back ?
Trade fanatics introducing in this thread all those complexes trade models suggestions. They try to pollute Civ 3, biasing it for supremacy by use of trade. I think it was very clear that real civers don't want a trade oriented civ 3.
Can you imagine one winning the game by gold accumulation in the midle ages ? What example we've got in the history like this ? First Trade Super Power in the world was Nederland in XVII c. and they were easely beated by France in a war runned by Louis XIV. Second was England in XIX c. and they remained strong by the wars they won not by trade.
I hope Firaxis can remain in good sense (to avoid Civ series destruction) by not giving listenig to those people. Amen !

P.S. I think and repeat: Trade is important but not the most important factor. A good trade model is adviseable for Civ 3, but it can not be mandatory and it should be of less importance in the first phases of the game.

[supremus]

quote: Originally posted by TheSocialist on 04-05-2001 08:13 PM Well it seems from the preview that the trade model will be upgraded placing an increased emphasis on trade. It also appears that they will include resources. They look like they are doing a good job. But, I can't stand when I see historical inaccuracy. The Netherlands was not the first trading super power. Far from it, the first trading super power i can think of is either the Phoenecians or the Minoans. Trade has been the driving force behind a lot of major events and doesn't deserve to be trivialized. [This message has been edited by TheSocialist (edited April 05, 2001).]

The socialist,
I think we agree almost 100%. Trade in Civ2 is very simple and, of course, the model can be and must be upgraded.
When I say The Nederlands was the first Trade SUPERPOWER what I mean is that they were the first State to use Trade as its dominant estrategy as they were weak in military terms. At that time, and for some decades, French and English supremacy were under threath because of the amount of the income flow the Dutch stablished for its safe. But at the end guns spoke louder.
I definitively don't want to see Civ 3 with a poor trade model. If this model is historically accurated, (this historical sense is, in my opinion, one of the most important factor for Civ series sucess, if not the most important.)it can be greate ! But I fear Firaxis can be lured by those trade fanatic models and launch a trade biased Civ III wich would be a disaster.