Manufacturing Capability Should Come Before End Product

[Zanzin]

Having read all the posts, I think the best way be to require the "factory" improvement in cities before you can produce tanks, airplanes etc in that city.

Having individual "tank factories" and "air plane plants" etc is getting too specific.

[SerapisIV]

I wholeheartedly agree Zanzin, Although factories should be a requirement it should be a generic factory, rather then specialized factories which only add micromanagement without really adding fun.

Also, for ships, I'd like to see ships such as galleons and up require a basic docks improvement. Ships such as those are large enough that you can't just build them on a random beach and push them in. Some kind of infrastructure should be required. Basic ships like caravels and triremes, those could be built by armies as needed, where needed as ancient writings show occurred, but the actual engineering and scientific knowledge required to build larger ships isn't something that just occurs in a city, some kind of dock or prepared infrastructure is necessary before large vessels can be built.

Again, this idea is not promoting more improvements or specializing improvements, just adding functions to existing improvements.
[This message has been edited by SerapisIV (edited April 08, 2001).]

[Ilkuul]

quote: Originally posted by SerapisIV on 04-08-2001 11:33 AM Also, for ships, I'd like to see ships such as galleons and up require a basic docks improvement. Ships such as those are large enough that you can't just build them on a random beach and push them in...

That's a good point, Serapis. And it would also be good, IMHO, if such a docks improvement gave veteran status to ships built there. It's always seemed to me that the Port Facility came too late in the game (at least, the way I play).

[Dienstag]

I like the idea of factories being necessary for modern weapons. I think this would compliment the idea of strategically bombing city improvements (walls, factories, Chinese embassies, etc...).

I like realism, so it's not cool when some factory-less city in Greenland tries to spend eighty years building a tank. No one has ever spent so long creating a single military unit in real life, so in the game they shouldn't be allowed to. Aircraft carriers may take a couple years, but that's it. It should either take for a given city to produce a unit, or be impossible for that city.

Here's an example of what happens when production is so dependant on shields per city. I mean, if I have two cities that each produce 80 shields a turn, I basically get 2 tanks a turn (assuming tank take 80 shields, ignoring support). In 20 turns I've made 40 tanks. Now if one of my opponents has 40 cities that each only produce 4 shields per turn, he too has the potential to build 40 tanks, but only after 20 turns before which he has nothing. If I go to war, I can totally whoop him before he produces a single tank, assuming he doesn't rush-buy (which is another interesting bit of unreality).

I'm told that when the Germans were invading Stalingrad, the Soviet tank factory there was sending tanks to fight right off the end of the assembly line. Even if this isn't true, it doesn't seem that you should have to construct an entire armored division before any of the tanks are useful.

I know that in the boad game World In Flames, you total up your country's Build Points (basically equals number of Factories times your Production Multiple, unless you're short on resources) and spend it on units within certain restrictions (One of which is a gearing limit, so if you haven't built any ships lately then you can't just go build 10 ships all at once. This simulates your workers/factories not all being able to suddenly switch what they're doing.) Each unit has a basic time which it takes to complete: i.e. 4 turns for an armor unit. So you have to look ahead and all that. It's a great game, but totally unlike Civ so I don't know how much of this is helpful. I mostly wanted to throw out more ideas. I think such a system would be more realistic, but maybe too abstract since you can't say which, if any, city built the unit. Hope this helps.

[Lancer]

Dienstag, did you know that in October (last time I checked) the WiF computer game is supposed to come out? Largest map in any comp game ever, by far. I don't play the board game due to space constrains and lack of opponents, but I've heard so many good things that the comp game is definatly in my future.

Thanks for your imput to this thread, and to everyone that has posted so far. I'm reading and like what I read so far, keep it up!

[Lancer]

Btw Dienstag's idea could be used very easily. One way to incorporate the "gearing" as he put it is to reduce the time it takes to build the second unit of any type produced by any factory. That gives a feel of factory specialization without being totally constrained to only produce one thing in that factory. It pays to keep making one thing, but you can switch without building a new factory.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Ohh, like SMAC's prototype idea (one of the best SMAC ideas, I think) .

[SerapisIV]

I was thinking more along the lines of docks being a required building just to build the larger ships (along with factories for destroyers, etc. you can't exactly build steel plating without a steel mill, for which a factory serves that purpose). I think that port facilities should still be used for veterancy. Though you should get them a bit earlier. Waiting till combined arms (after flight???) is too long.

[Zanzin]

quote: Originally posted by SerapisIV on 04-08-2001 11:33 AM factories should be a requirement it should be a generic factory, rather then specialized factories which only add micromanagement without really adding fun.

This is what I meant!!

[Lancer]

Imran, really? I don't have SMAC. I stole the idea from a little early '90s game called Empire Deluxe.

Hey, I see you're a Deity. You would be the third I guess?

[SerapisIV]

Lancer, the idea of SMAC's prototypes was a little different. It was only the first unit ever produced of that type, anywhere in your civ that was more as expensive. It didn't carry the factory momentum that you and Dienstag take about with a "gearing" cost, only a first ever produced cost.

Oh yeah Zanzin, I know, I totally agree with the idea.

[Ilkuul]

quote: Originally posted by SerapisIV on 04-08-2001 12:05 PM I think that port facilities should still be used for veterancy. Though you should get them a bit earlier. Waiting till combined arms (after flight???) is too long.

OK, I see what you mean. I agree, as long you do get veteran ships quite a lot earlier!

[Cyclotron]

Production was a qualifier to produce a tank in Civ2; you now suggest that some sort of qualifying structure should ALSO be used to limit industrial production. I see absolutely no merit, purpose, or bonus for doing this, other than your sense of "realism" which is in of itself highly subjective.

Many RTS games use this building limit. The reason it works for them is because this, plus money, is the only qualifyer. In Civ, technology prevents you from building tanks from the start. Adding a factory to make them available only delays their production, something that can be done just as easily by slowing the tech paradigm if one was so inclined. As the factory simply means a bit more production, one could also reach the same result by increasing the cost per unit. There is therefore no purpose for a qualifying structure in Civ3, as this role is already fufilled by technology and production.

As I wholeheartedly oppose mandatory resources, so I oppose these mandatory structures which add more management and tedium without any benefit to the player.

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- Cyclotron7, "that supplementary resource fanatic"
[This message has been edited by cyclotron7 (edited April 09, 2001).]

[Imran Siddiqui]

It's called adding more strategy and prohibition of the creation of massive armed forces before you have the structures in place to create them. Basically making it a bit less war driven. A perfect idea, if I do say so myself. I don't see how adding strategy is bad. You seem to like making Civ into a war game, I don't.

Oh, and btw, I believe, according to the CGW preview, mandatory resources are in the game.

[me_irate]

I guess im in the minority here. While i differ from cyclotron on the resources issue. I however agree with him that i do not like this factory idea. A person let alone a whole city could build a tank, it is just quicker with a factory. I believe that this speed increase accurately fits with the factories current role. I seldom would even consider building a tank in a city without a factory because it takes so long, but if one would want to build it i believe they should be able to.