Naval warfare

[Cyclotron]

quote: Originally posted by Sirotnikov on 03-15-2001 07:24 PM After the Iron Clad, big ships can't load/unload regular units on regular coasts but only at ports.

Ships of earlier times, i.e. frigates, also could not unload men directly. I think it is assumed that basically all ships in Civ2 are equipped with the standard troop-ferrying boat (ie. longboat for frigate, amphib. landing vehicle for transport), eliminating the need for a special unit to ferry stuff.

quote: This also means: There are now two port buildings instead of the one now. One is the regular Port which allows building and docking of ships, the other one is Upgraded port that adds things such as healing, veteran ships, more trade, what ever.

Sounds good, but it's going a little far into the area of required buildings... still, could work. I would suggest some better names: Pier and Docking Facility.

quote: Special marine ability for units that can load / unload from boats anywhere. Only people have this ability ie - no marine tanks.

Why aren't tanks marine? There are marine tanks. I can't think of a unit in Civ2 that really couldn't unload from a boat. Mechanized infantry and even cavalry are held aboard transport ships and can be landed amphibiously on most coasts.

quote: Special unit - Hover Craft which has docking ability in all places and can carry troops but has to stay within one tile of land (like termime but always sinks). It is transportable by sea and by carrying air units (ex. city has lots air defenses - a heli droping a craft and commandos near shores).

No need for this, because like I said boats are assumed to have ferrying boats with them.

quote: Heavy vehicales have to be transported to a port. Where did you see a tank coming to shore from water?

Actually, I see them on the History channel . Amphibious tanks of course exist, and non-amphibious ones can be transported easily from transport ships using flat amphibious landing barges.

------------------
"Any shred of compassion left in me was snuffed out forever when they cast me into the flames..."
- Marsil, called the Pretender

[colossus]

Some thoughts about naval blockade, bombardment and raiding.

1)In real life, naval blockade is very difficult and ineffective. The notion that a single naval unit runs a naval blockade is too unrealistic and simplistic. You need many, many ships for a viable naval blockade. In part, it is represented in civ2 when you employ a dozen ironclads or so patrolling the sea offshore enemy cities, sinking any transports coming nearby. Moreover, there is no points for naval blockade if cities cannot be besieged in civ3.

2)Civ2 has done a good job to simulate the effects of raiding and naval bombardment. I would only add that city should lose population when bombarded. Citizens may not be directly killed by the shells, but some of them would panick and flee.

As for raiding to get money, I would point out that this kind of money usually goes to pockets of private individuals rather than the state, moreover, land units do not get get money from pillage, why should naval units?

3)The adverse effects of enemy naval presense, I suggest, should be that it denies workers to it's tile. An ironclad sitting on a whale tile should prevent it to be used by enemy city, much the same way as army on land tile. This is because fishermen are unable or unwilling to go there harnessing the resources lest they should be sunk.

[Sirotnikov]

quote: 1)Units can only be loaded in city, but can be unloaded anywhere.

I thought about it but it isn't that logical. I mean, once could say that jumping out of a ship is easier than climbing into it, but I'm not sure. It's worth considering though.

quote: Loading a unit in a city without port ends the turn of the unit(just as fortifying); loading a unit in a city with port costs it 1/3 MP, the unit can still move when it unloads in another city.

If the current transport system stays as it is, and ships will have enough movement points it's a nice ideas to promote ports.

Cyclotron7, I am aware of the assumptions, however it generalizes naval warfare to a level of boredom.

quote: I would suggest some better names: Pier and Docking Facility.

Thanks. I'm bad with names.

I can honestly say I never heard about amphibious tanks so I was sincere when writing the previous post.

quote: Special unit - Hover Craft which has docking ability in all places and can carry troops but has to stay within one tile of land (like termime but always sinks). It is transportable by sea and by carrying air units (ex. city has lots air defenses - a heli droping a craft and commandos near shores). No need for this, because like I said boats are assumed to have ferrying boats with them.

I know there's no need but this would make the game so much cooler!
I know I sound pathetic

quote: transport ships using flat amphibious landing barges

But what if the sea get's "Really" shallow 200 m before coas line? or has big cliffs? (water near mountain)

HA! The tank would drown while no ship could come near! HA! ( )

Amphibous tanks? HA! what will thye think of! Soon yer gonna tell me they are gonna make phones that need no wires attached to them! Dreamer! ( )

quote: 3)The adverse effects of enemy naval presense, I suggest, should be that it denies workers to it's tile. An ironclad sitting on a whale tile should prevent it to be used by enemy city, much the same way as army on land tile. This is because fishermen are unable or unwilling to go there harnessing the resources lest they should be sunk.

Good point.

quote: In real life, naval blockade is very difficult and ineffective. The notion that a single naval unit runs a naval blockade is too unrealistic and simplistic. You need many, many ships for a viable naval blockade. In part, it is represented in civ2 when you employ a dozen ironclads or so patrolling the sea offshore enemy cities, sinking any transports coming nearby. Moreover, there is no points for naval blockade if cities cannot be besieged in civ3.

But in real life ships have big sonar range and big shooting range, unlike in civ, where ships can easily slip away, especially as transports have much more movement points than military ships. Ever seen a transport being chased by a battleship across the pacific?

[Cyclotron]

How ships landed stuff in the various ages:

Ancient- generally, with ships as small and as flat as they were then, craft could get pretty close to shore so ground troops could wade off. Horses and chariots were not common cargo as they take more effort and space to keep and unload, but landing mounted troops was no unheard of.

Middle Ages to Napoleonic Era- ships were larger than ancient ships at this time, and their deep keels prevented them from going near shore. Cannons, men, and even horses unloaded by means of flat-keeled longboats or barges. Many ships of the line carried longboats for such purposes.

Industrial to Modern age- The developments of hovercrafts, amphibious vehicles and beach landing craft means that in the modern age even tanks can be landed amphibiously. The USA's island-hopping strategy in WW2 could not have suceeded without such innovations as the amphibious landing vehicle.

Conclusion: In all ages, it is feasible to unload or load any unit. However, I realize now that certain units take more space and work to load, unload, and carry, so I propose that sea transport should be like in Civ2 EXCEPT that units like cavalry and armor take up more space on board ship than infantry and artillery.

For example: Infantry and artillery take up 1 space, cavalry and mech. infantry take up 2, and armor takes up 3.

A transport ship that could carry 6 in Civ2 could now carry 6 infantry, or 2 armor units, or an armor unit, a mech. infantry unit, and an infantry unit... combinations galore!

------------------
Any shred of compassion left in me was snuffed out forever when they cast me into the flames...

[tmarcl]

quote: Originally posted by Sirotnikov on 03-20-2001 07:17 PM 1)Units can only be loaded in city, but can be unloaded anywhere.

I thought about it but it isn't that logical. I mean, one could say that jumping out of a ship is easier than climbing into it, but I'm not sure. It's worth considering though.