About health and protective border tolls

[Youngsun]

Dear Ralf.

quote: Youngsun, i have finally come to the conclusion that any further discussions about the difficulties and prioritys concerning AI-programming, is more or less meaningless. At least with you. We are simply to far apart - at least then it comes to this subject.

My main point was that "Civ is a complicated game itself and its success owes a lot to transparent representation of these complicated game features to players".

However to my eyes some people were showing almost alergic attitude toward an idea which looks complex to them and while saying things like this "Keep It Simple Stupid".(<-might be appropriate to report generation or website construction)

You said first this in my corporation thread.

quote: But why does every Civ-3 suggestion just have to be so damn roundaboutly complex?

This time I wouldn't mind much because I thought you were thinking my corporation idea is too complex. That was quite OK with me.

Then you said this in this thread.

quote: Every conceptual idea doesnt necessarily have complicated and roundabout in its explanation and execution.

This time it was still OK too.

then it was Kumiorava's response which shoked me quite a bit.

quote: Lot's of ideas available there. However, I won't elaborate this any further, as it would hurt the beautiful simplicity of Ralf's concepts.

He said there are lots of ideas avaiable but won't elaborate any further. Why? because it will hurt Ralf's simple concept. Elaborating? Hurt? I don't see any relationship between those two words at all. I felt the very purpose of this forum was under threat.

Then what Ralf said relieved me little bit and reduced my fear.

quote: I realize that above ideas can be tweaked better here and there.

But my fear reappeared after Ralf said this.

quote: The more complicated an idea is to explain to any fellow player, and implement for the game-designers; the more likely it is that this or that idea acts as a cuckoos hatchling; pushing other concepts and ideas out from the city-screen, and out from the game. If not for any other reason: at least as a result of its shere size and complexity.

I had different opinion on that and this is why.

quote: Different people can have different vision about the exact same idea and what's worse Firaxis too will possibley have different vision about the same idea. That's why you need to clearly show/demonstrate how you want the idea to be implemented and the process can be sometimes very complicated to other people's eyes. However that's the best avaiable way to reduce any possible misunderstanding.

and the final blow which put me in great shock!

quote: This is why the "Keep It Simple Stupid" civ-3 design loadstar, is so damn important!

My thought was totally different. I think no matter how an idea get complicated or simplified if it can be well represented to pursue the basic game goal "FUN" it wouldn't matter. So statement like KISS rule should apply was very contrary to my belief. Furthermore I reckon civ is complex game in nature and it represent the complex game features damn good. While my belief was like, this quite one-sided "Keep it Simple Stupid" statement was very hard to swallow.

so I put my first post in this thread which made the thread quite a debating place and for that I sincerely apolosise Ralf.

So there was my point after all from the very beginning of post. If any of you read my first post you will know what I'm trying to say.

If you read my second reply you will know I don't have any opposing view about what Ralf think about AI related improvemrnt.

I said

quote: Yes I fully agree.

quote: Yes I understand

quote: Couldn't agree more here.

quote: Also I share your view for the rest of your reply.

This was total agreement on what he think about AI related imrovement. Then Ralf should have known I'm not after his great past contribution which I agree fully but he should have known I'm worried about the kind of influence you have put to Kumiorava or possibly other people which was discouragement to elaboration of newly suggested ideawhich might kill or ruin this forum.

My last aim or point was largely based on that matter consistently but Ralf you didn't listen to me but lectured me with figures and thread which I am not opposing or anything. My tone of voice was constant "Mate to Mate" or "Buddy to buddy" which was aimed at equal status convesation while Ralf you talked me like a grown man talking to a kid in another word "lecture" which is designed to send a message to a person who is intellectually inferior indeed. I could put up with that, that was alright but when you picked my word which was totally unnecessary to this debate I was quite sad.

quote: "Stupid" is not the same as "incompetent"? Are we talking Orwellian new-language here?

Anyway I myself too came to the same conclusion as Ralf made and this endless debate should end here for our own good. First of all I have nothing against Ralf. He is very dedicated poster and has lots of talent on the matter which is related to "AI". and if his previous comment was made by some bypasser or newbies I wouldn't mind at all but because, it was Ralf himself who is quite an influential figure to this forum, made that kind of comment(KISS rule and such), so I had to say something.

I think Roman got what I was trying to say from the very beginnning. Thank you Roman

[Roman]

Hurray, I can see there are no underlying hard feelings only a difference of opinion between you two Youngsun and Ralf.
Hmm, I do think there is a vast amount of ideas floating around on this forum. How about compiling the best of them in one thread, which would be much easier for people to digest and would contain only quality conceptual thoughts rather than particular suggestions on what units or techs to include in the game.
The advantage of this would be that Firaxis (or anyone else interested in the subject) would find a short and consolidated source of good conceptual ideas that are not too far fetched and actually implementable in a game. I think this would increase the chances of some of the good ideas being included in the game as Firaxis would not have to search through the heaps of material that we know is not going to be included anyway.
I am acutely aware of the problem concerning the arbitration of which ideas make it into the thread and which do not, but if we agree on doing something like this I am sure we can sort something out (maybe a consensus among a selected group of people). I also suggest no more than one post in the thread per idea to keep it brief and concise.
Obviously the ideas could be further elaborated in other threads...

What do you guys think?
[This message has been edited by Roman (edited January 08, 2001).]