Just some observations and suggestions....

[croxis]

After a leave of absence I returned to be a "lurker" here at the Apolyton forums. I think that it is a great idea that the community is helping create the next Civ game, and I have some suggestions and food for thought:

1) The KISS philosophy (Keep It Simple Stupid). If your really cool idea takes very long to explain then it probably would be way to hard to explain it to a new gamer. Also, when trying to find a solution to a problem (ICS for example) its probably best to change what is already currently in CivII then trying to add more to the game(information overload).

2) This is a strategy game, not a history sim, gameplay and fun should be over historical accuracy.

3) PLEASE keep the history debates out of the topic. History is relative.

So, have at it!

[Steve Clark]

Yeah, I tend to agree. The game has to appeal to the 500,000 gamers that just want a high-quality, fun, strategy game instead of just the 6,000 folks who populate Apolyton.

[Ralf]

Partly, it is the Firaxis teams own fault. I mean, nobody had twisted my arm to post anything on the subject – it’s not that. It’s just that the developers could have made things so much easier, right from the beginning, by setting up some overall principal guidelines about turnbased strategy game designing. What is feasible, and what is not? To hear it directly “from the horses mouth”, so to speak. Get some basic response feedback every second month or so.
As it stands, the suggestions-pack (named “If just one idea…)” that was sent to FIRAXIS july 14 –99, is so enormous that we all should consider our self rather lucky if only 5% of it, is finally ever implemented in the upcoming Civ-3 game.

Meanwhile, some few and very BASIC but imperative under-the-hood changes stand the risk of drowning, in a flood wave of game complicating superficial add-ons features.

* Do something about the "Infinite City Sprawl" problem
* Do something about the "bigger is only and always better" problem
* Do something about the AI city management problem.

On the other hand – one can’t just say “leave it to the Pros”, or “they knows best”. Just look at what kind of mess they did of “Call to Power” and “Test of time”.
Remember that we are not talking about any old upgrade here – we are talking about THE strategy game – the ultimate one, voted “best game that’s ever been made” or something, back in 1998 by a well known computer game-magazine.
[This message has been edited by Ralf (edited July 08, 2000).]

[yin26]

Just a word or two here...

Many of us (including me) don't want a Civ 2.5. The List served as a powerful notice to Firaxis that at least some of the fans are hoping for a leap and not a limp. By Firaxis' own admission, The List also served to jumpstart a lot of interesting discussions among the team, including ways to stop various cheats, possible ways to implement deeper diplomacy and trade, etc...

I was the first to admit it was a huge book of ideas, but it was called "If only one idea..." for a reason. Nobody expects that list to become a Civ 3 Bible. But for the reasons I listed above (and many more), it will have at least as profound an impact as a "#1 Thing to Fix for Civ3" thread would do.

And if you're looking for a true Civ 3, perhaps a whole lot more. Besides, we already know for a fact that ICS is being addressed seriously, which goes along with the "bigger is always better" issue. Chris Pine himself has also posted about AI...so that's obviously a priority. Those issues ARE being addressed.
[This message has been edited by yin26 (edited July 08, 2000).]

[Ralf]

Yin26 (quote): “Besides, we already know for a fact that ICS is being addressed seriously, which goes along with the "bigger is always better" issue …Those issues ARE being addressed”.

Thanks Yin26 – it is certainly reassuring to here that . I didn’t mean to overreact – it’s just that i did bought myself two MAJOR disappointments without reading the reactions and reviews first: CTP and Test of Time. I am not going to make the same mistake with neither CTP-2 nor Civ-3.

Now, Yin26 if you also could confirm the “replace settler*/trade/spy-units with appropriate management screens”, and the “AI city management user-editable by scripts/ templates” idea - everything would be downhill’s, from thereon. And of course: multiple ways of winning.

Add to that a really good and powerful, half-automated scenario-builder – everything will be even more OK.

*The settler-unit is of course still needed then founding new cities, and intercity road- and railroad connections.
[This message has been edited by Ralf (edited July 08, 2000).]

[yin26]

Ralf,

I absolutely understand your concerns and don't mean to stop the conversation. The idea of focussing on major issues is essential to a good game, especially considering that Civ3 is likely planned to be an evolution not a revolution (though I'd personally like some revolution, but it's just a wish).

I can't comment directly on the other things you mentioned, though I know Chris Pine is an AI-expert in the making, so if you had to have anybody as lead programmer, he's your best shot at a much improved AI.

[croxis]

I wasn't that clear, sorry about that :-D
I want a Civ 3 too, but others also just want a Civ 2.5 so i think well just have to settle with a Civ 2.75.....
What i ment to say was that we need to at least try and figure out what we should change first, before we add new stuff. With ICS for example, it would be hard to sleeze cities if they didn't exist like they do now in Civ 1 & 2. I'm starting to ramble.
So when we suggest ideas we may be going off in the wrong direction that Firaxis has planned. It would help if we get a little more feedback from them, just enough saying that we're barking up the wrong tree!

[phunny pharmer]

I must add that I would like to see some history in this game (possibly in the form of scenarios). This game is based on history, so history cannot be forgotten completely. However, it should not take precedence over gameplay, or customizability.

[UltraSonix]

Yeah, don't trash history, it adds the civ-ness to the game! I mean, I wouldn't want to be building "ECM Plasma Sentinels" again...

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