Migration

[Sir Shiva]

Migration should be an important factor in population growth and distribution, like it was in hostory...

People should be able to migrate from one city to another, one country to another etc.. This will be facilitated by road, railroad, air and sea (check out the thread on stations and ports)...

Bad governance, famine, disease etc. will cause emigration, while high standards of living, prosperity, good health etc. cause immigration...
But immigrants from a disease struck place will cause a greater risk to their new home, immigrants from a rioting place may cause a little trouble, famine-struck immigrants eat a little more for a while etc..

Therefore, along your borders on roads and at stations/ports/airports (thread on stations & ports, again), you might want to build border check posts.. This will help by slowing down emmigration, and also by filtering out unwanted immigrants.. Of course, the filter could be changed constantly by you...

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-Shiva
Email: shiva@mailops.com
Web: http://www.crosswinds.net/india/~shiva
ICQ: 17719980

[Sir Shiva]

funny how no one replied to this...

here's your last chance

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-Shiva
Email: shiva@mailops.com
Web: http://www.crosswinds.net/india/~shiva
ICQ: 17719980

[MidKnight Lament]

I quite like the idea. It could add more realism without adding anything too complicated.

- MKL

[Adm.Naismith]

Migration idea: thumb up, because I agree that sometimes a significant amount of population escape to another area to survive to threat as you listed. I would also add religious persecution.

If you like the units, simply add a special settler automated to go from the escaped city to the desired one. It can be killed (or bribed) on the way or, when it will reach the destination, add to the population. This will really resemble "boat people" or recent great escape from african nations into civil war to nearest country.

If you prefer less units, simply pop-up an advice and let immigrated to appear into the arrival.

Show immigrate as "special worker" with minus instead of plus of specialist, then after a few time you can switch them as common worker (assimilated).

Use Social (Government) choice to let easy or difficult to emigrate (police state keep a strict control over populace).

Well, a bunch of raw suggestions, more tought later.

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Adm.Naismith AKA mcostant

[MidKnight Lament]

Migration offers the opportunity for some interesting things in regard to religion. I can especially appreciate that as a citizen of Australia. We've gone from having a mostly Brittish population at colonisation (with particular mention to aboriginees), to a higly multi-cultural one. We've become quite a melting pot of different cultures and religions. And whilst this has surely caused some problems in the past, it also means that we've grown to be a (more) tolerant country than perhaps some others are. (Still plenty of work to do there though. We're far from perfect.)

This also sparks a question. Would a religious victory mean spreading your religion across the globe, or would it be more of a cultural we-respect-everyone's-beliefs sort of victory? Sorry if I should have found the answer to this somewhere else. I have to say I didn't follow the religion threads too closely.

I can also appreciate the concept of boat-people. We get plenty of them coming our way from SE Asia too.

- MKL

[Adm.Naismith]

I'm often in a hurry, so I add typos to my english mistakes I'm sorry friends!

MidKnight, you touched a sweet point about how a victory by religion should be obtained, watch out from some "fanatic" coming

Seriusly, I think a victory by religion would be a "dominance" victory, as in corning the market or in world conquer like SMAC (some civ are still living but under your "pact" term).

If the varius religions will be modelled (in a fictional and abstract or realistic model) then I bet than a "tolerant religion" will have some plus over a "fanatic" one.

If not, you can think that simply by balancing your approach to the varius religions inside your cities (the "we-respect-everyone's-beliefs" way) you can keep enemy at bay on this front, letting you more room to win by market or armies

Back on Migration, I like to add that I see no need to build border check post (an old proposal sometime resurrected) if not into the meaning of "SMAC sensors" to help you monitoring the borderline or your cities proximity. You can see a migrating settler (or enemy unit) some square far by the help of sensors/check post, but that's all.

BTW, here in Italy we have lot of problem to stop illegal immigration between our shorelines, by criminal driven "rubber dinghy ferries" into the night. Control immigration is not an easy task, check point or not.

Sir Shiva, you have got some feedback, now is your turn to come back and tell us more

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Adm.Naismith AKA mcostant

[This message has been edited by Adm.Naismith (edited March 31, 2000).]

[Matthevv]

I think this idea of population migration is a good one. It would not be difficult to implement.

On a historical note, for most of history up to the last 50 years control of immigration/ emigration was not such an issue(apart from in China?). I think this could be modelled in the game quite easily.

[Sir Shiva]

Funny.. I posted this thread about 3 weeks ago and it didn't get a single reply.. I revive it and get 6 posts in a day.. Perhaps I should revive my other posts too...

Adm., I hear that the Italian govt. is open to Kurd immigrants. That is commendable, but for some reason, Austria and other EU nations don't like it..

Maybe there could be refugees of war which set up camps all over the place and could prove irritating to the host nations (they occupy productive spaces perhaps)... But if the host did anything drastic to evict them, he would lose some diplomatic points. Or we could have labour camps which 'absorb' immigrants and get them to do some kind of work.. This would also be looked down upon..

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-Shiva
Email: shiva@mailops.com
Web: http://www.crosswinds.net/india/~shiva
ICQ: 17719980

[Adm.Naismith]

Sir Shiva, sometime a post sink into a flood of new messages, we sleep and work around the world, so not always the time zone is right when we are on-line

About immigration and Italy, to really summarize the problem (I hope no one will kill me to do so ) other countries don't really care about Italy accepting refugees.

The problem arise because Italy is often only an entry point, where people can enter easily than in other countries, then shift to their final destination, as France or Germany, because internal border in European Union are not strongly checked by border police.

I'm not sure we can put some "diplomatic penalty" in CIV III about this situation, because the model will really be too much to handle.

We can suppose that the level of "police state" in the Social Choices (like S.E. in SMAC) can have some collateral effect on how immigrates are accepted/tolerated.

If immigrates are to be modelled by settler units, we can cope with them by other units (attack or repel them on borders) or order them to found a camp (particular kind of city), but it only make sense if we want to model major mass immigration.

I am afraid of micromanagement, but if you want you can add the problem of supply the refugee camp (they will have a negative production of food). The advantage of a camp is that a immigrate settler wandering around will limit the production in the occupied square like enemy units do.

Let them join a city will give you a "special population point" with some unhappiness effect but a production added. After a time frame (calculated taking into the account Social choices, wonders effect etc.) they become common workers.

I underline that immigrate or refugee model has lot of shared point IMHO with slavery model: they are special citizen with limited rights, source of some kind of unhappines, potential resources if you are able to integrate them into your CIV as common workers.

Repeal refugee or order them to leave the camp could be considered a minor atrocities (if they wiil be included in CIV III).

As someone else stated, the best CIV features add some strategic choices to the game: should I accept mass immigration as an actual trouble I can cope with, harvesting good profit some decade in the future?

On this point of view I'm sure we can add this "immigration model" with profit, if only the game AI can cope with related decision in a decent way.

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Adm.Naismith AKA mcostant

[MidKnight Lament]

quote: Originally posted by Adm.Naismith on 04-03-2000 08:28 AM As someone else stated, the best CIV features add some strategic choices to the game: should I accept mass immigration as an actual trouble I can cope with, harvesting good profit some decade in the future?

I heartily agree. The upsides should be that in the long run you have a larger population with which to mould, and perhaps also avoiding repurcussions from other civs if you refused to take any refugees.

The downsides could include a short-term drain on resources (eg. food), and the introduction of new religions into your cities' religious mix.

I'm sure there's others. Feel free to take this ball and run with it, anyone. Adm.Naismith is right though. We need to concentrate on how this will force the player into making a decision, and what will be the benefits and repurcussions of that decision.

- MKL

[Sir Shiva]

Another downside to mass immigration could be that a city with a lot of immigrants from country X will be more susceptible to spiying by that country.. Remember Lee Teng Ho or whatever his name was and the nuclear espionage controversy in the US?

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-Shiva
Email: shiva@mailops.com
Web: http://www.crosswinds.net/india/~shiva
ICQ: 17719980

[MidKnight Lament]

Good one. This could be particularly true if you're having trouble accomodating them.

- MKL

[tniem]

I want migration because it is historically important. I think the that it would add extra complexity to the game in a great way. I think that every city that you have should have a breakdown of the ethnic percentages living in the city. For example if you conquor an Indian city, at first almost 100% of the population would be Indian and a small fraction would be the army or your nation (Russian). Over time more government officials and workers from your nation would come and the % of Russians would go up. The higher the percentage of your own ethniticity the less chance of a rebellion or civil war.

Plus, each ethniticity could have hidden benefits, negatives (randomized each game so Firaxis is not sued) so that maybe the Celts in a game would prefer a Democracy and the Chinese are war-like.