Save the camel !!!!

[Sirotnikov]

I also think that trade should be established with units of some sort and being something like CTP. Because it should be possible to block trade routs and to bribe a camel once in a while. Only one of many that go there each year. I can also attack it. But it wouldn't hurt the actual route. Only I will get the trade benefit for that year. and next year there'll be another automated camel.

Also, attcking a trade route shouldn't be considered such a big atrocity. I mean, if I do it in the middle of the desert, how can anyone find out it was me and not some barbarian horde? Especially it shouldn't affect relations with countries that haven't signed a peace agreement. Cool! I could use it as a means of extorsion (spelling?) I want a nation to do something, so I say: Do so and so or no soup for you!! oh.. sorry, I mean no camels. Watching too much Seinfeld.

[Krusty]

Just get rid of the Trade Routes Pirating idea. In CTP otherwise friendly civs were destroying all my trade routes

[MidKnight Lament]

It's not so much when friendly civs pirate my trade routes that I found annoying. It was more that they weren't accountable for it. Same goes with repetitive tresspassing when they've got no reason to.

At the moment I'm playing a game where every five turns a ship lands a settler on my continent. If I've told them three times already and they continue to tresspass, I should be able to say, "If you tresspass again, I'll consider it an act of war". And if they do it again, I should lose none of my reputation for whoopin' their lying @rse!

Pirating should be considered more serious however. You should be able to warn them as soon as you know they're doing it.

Taking this in mind, there should be a way that you can pirate trade routes without the civ knowing who did it sometimes. For example, if their trade route crosses vast expanses of ocean, and you pirate it in the middle of nowhere, how are they going to know who did it? You've killed all the traders on the ship. Perhaps you should be able to do this if you're out of viewing range of their cities and units. Or if they're on good terms with another civ, perhaps that other civ could bust you if you pirate the route in front of them. Pirating just isn't as fun if they can pin it on you every time. That's why Privateers in Colonization was so damn fun!

Of course, most of this is the proposed diplomacy model already, but seeing as you brought it up, i thought I'd mention it.
[This message has been edited by MidKnight Lament (edited March 09, 2000).]

[Father Beast]

I really like the idea of automated camels. It keeps the camel going to and fro after I've established the trade route, and it provides incentive to me to patrol the trade route and keep barbarians, barbaric players off it. It would also end the Eternal Route you don't see that stays intact no matter what. I imagine being able to harrass my opponents by messing with their camels, or just letting them pass during cease fire agreements (dialogue box: caravan from karakorum to philadelphia. allow to pass? yes/no)

[Matthew]

SAVE THE CAMEL !!!!!

[raingoon]

I whole-heartedly agree! SAVE JOE! Forget that it takes 1000 years or whatever to move a caravan, btw, because that's just an abstraction. What I love is moving my camel herds to all points of the map, and I think if I want to have a trade-game of civ, I should be able to. There should be:

1. Trade units that can be automated to move and moved manually at player's discretion.

2. Terrain designed for interesting trade routes. I want a new terrain tile -- the MOUNTAIN PASS, which becomes of strategic importance, espec. during trade, as this is the only tile that will admit most land units through mountains until the latter part of the game.

3. Resources that are vital for building military units, though scarce enough enough on the map to reinvigorate the trade model. THIS IS A MUST! An ore freighter on its way across the Pacific will not get confused or easily lost by you if you depend on trading that ore for the oil you need to defeat the Zulus.

4. The Economic Victory Map -- which shows which economies dominate the world, thus it does not exactly resemble the political map. This adds a new layer of strategy to give Matthew even more fun orchetrating his camel herds all over the globe.

But above all, ALL THIS depends on having living, breathing CAMELS that can be moved by the player and squished by your opponents. So I echo Matthew's call to arms -- SAVE JOE!!!

[Stuff2]

Get rid of the camels!

Get rid of all these stupid AI units randomly wandering around the screen!

As few units as possible!

Can't there be other ways to simulate warfare and trade?

[War4ever]

no camels are important to civ..... camels represent the ancient or third world trade..... perhaps an icon in between camels and freight would be a good idea.

Long live the camel..... and a better goto command for those camels and nomads

[don Don]

Yeah, who needs units anyway? When we declare war just play "rock, paper, scissors."

[OrangeSfwr]

I have an idea regarding the Camel issue...

Why not say that camels and trucks can only move on Road/RR. That way they can only explore terrain that you know of, or terrain that someone has explored (It can't have road unless someone's been there) Sound good? I thought so. Then give them a movement rate of 5? I think the road movement rate should be raised to 5 to but that's a different thread I guess. But the camel must make a comeback, that we all agree on. I think once flight is discovered there should be a flying trader as well. The only problem with that would be that it would have to have a large number of moves in order to go from city to city and back home again. (I'm against the whole theory of having a plane lingering in the air for a turn or two - the bomber - so I didn't suggest that option for the trading planes). Also, someone mentioned how you can never remember where it's going or what's on it. Why not have a list of supply and demand with the trade unit at all times? I think that would eliminate the problem that we have all faced at one time or another...WHERE AM I GOING WITH THIS DAMN CAMEL!!!

Open to suggestions....

------------------
~~~I am who I am, who I am - but who am I?~~~

[MidKnight Lament]

quote: Originally posted by OrangeSfwr on 03-26-2000 12:34 AM But the camel must make a comeback, that we all agree on.

No, we don't all agree on keeping camels. Moving them all over the Civ2 map was a hassle and didn't encourage me to trade at all. CTP's trade screen was much better, and easier to organise. It gave just as much depth, but in a simpler fashion.

- MKL
[This message has been edited by MidKnight Lament (edited March 26, 2000).]

[pauli]

hence the idea for automatic, ai controlled camels, but also some specific player controlled ones.

as for camels only being allowed on roads... that only really works if you disregard the ancient, unpaved traderoutes throughout the world. if roads are created automatically, then things might work better. however, i doubt that would be overly popular

[raingoon]

Caravans were not on roads at all in much of ancient times -- they paved the way, so to speak, for roads that followed. So making roads a prerequisite won't work at all.

There's a good movie about this very subject (believe it or not) called "The Caravan" that is out. And it's all about a Nepalese village's salt caravan trying to find a faster route through the mountains.