(1)Advanced tribes; (2) Barb warning

[East Street Trader]

Two little things which I've noticed recently.

The first concerns advanced tribes. You know how you sometimes find them and they are already size three or more with one or a number of improvements already built? Well I have noticed recently that it is the player's discovery of Invention that triggers the finding of the developed advanced tribes. Sort of pay off I suppose for the fact that after Invention you get no more advances from huts.

Anyway, it is not quite simultaneous with the discovery of Invention because, after I strated to suspect the existence of the trigger, I also noticed a case in the next game where I got an advanced tribe the turn after getting Invention and it was a bog standard, one citizen/no improvements tribe. But the more developed ones then started in that game too. So I think the trigger may be Invention plus a move or two (or conceivably a hut tip or two), then they start.

For what little it is worth I have long suspectd (from nothing more than gameplay experience) that the advanced tribe outcome gets an edge where the hut tipped is the first on a continent with no cities.

Anyway, this observation has been enough to change my attitude to researching Invention. I always used to want to go for it as soon as available because it is an important branch in the tech tree leading on to some vital techs which it pays to get early. But I usually held back where I had plenty of huts to tip (not uncommon for me as I defer tipping after founding a capital til I can do it with a specialist team).

Just now, though, I'm going straight for it. Just love advanced tribes. Just love developed advanced tribs even more.

The second point is a small one. I give exploration a high priority throughout but the time it really matters above almost everything is in the opening phase if you share your continent with another civ. Find them early and you have more options. If they've got two or three cities down it is pretty well a sure thing that you will have to face the distraction of an early war of conquest.

Well the point is the message which you get that barbs have spawned or landed. It is only the civ with the nearest city which gets the message.

So my notion is to look out for early barbs appearing out of the fog of war when I have notpreviously received such a message. When that happens I can conclude that there is probably another civ on my continent (and redouble my exploring).

It's not foolproof because the barbs may spawn or land at a point where a foreign city on a different continent happens to be closer than my nearest city. But that possibility does not, for me, make a working hypothesis based on the idea worthless.

I'll let you know if this does me any good.

[rah]

"Anyway, it is not quite simultaneous with the discovery of Invention because, after I strated to suspect the existence of the trigger, I also noticed a case in the next game where I got an advanced tribe the turn after getting Invention and it was a bog standard, one citizen/no improvements tribe. But the more developed ones then started in that game too. So I think the trigger may be Invention plus a move or two (or conceivably a hut tip or two), then they start."


Even after the trigger (whatever it is) is tripped, it is still posible to get a 1 sized city. A couple of years ago, I looked into this thinking it was triggered by year, and could never prove anything. But anyway, after tipping a hut and getting a sized three city with a market and an aquaduct, I reset and tipped the hut again. A size 1 city wo/improvements was created. I reset a few more times and got a wide variety of city sizes/improvements. SO don't let the fact that you got a 1 sized city throw you off. Reset a few times to verify.

RAH

[rah]

And yes, i've also used barbs to clue me in on the existance of other civs on the same land mass. (WO/messages or those tripped by huts) It's even a bigger tipoff when you encounter them and they are already injured.

RAH

[Marquis de Sodaq]

Yes, barbarian proximity tells of the presence of cities - but it can also mean somebody else has tipped a hut nearby. In that case, you also get no warning message.

Barbarian pirates will only land when close enough to an occupied city - 6 rows/columns away? I can't remember, but there is a fixed distance within which they will disembark. If you have no defender, they apparently don't smell you and leave you alone for a while.

On that note, why do barbarians ignore the AI unless they crash into them? I've seen a barbarian march on a straight line within 2 squares of 4 AI cities, only to swerve off course to attack my city!

Play experience leads me to agree that the remotest huts are more likely to turn up advanced tribes. On a giant Mediterranean map with all civs starting more or less by the sea, it's almost assured that a trip to the steppes of the Ukraine will result in finding some new tribes to bring into the fold. In this case, they are still on the same continent, but very far away. The separate continent hypothesis is on the right track, as well. Time period probably also plays a role - when you are sufficiently impressive to sway them to join you, perhaps?

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"There is no fortress impregnable to an ass laden with gold."
-Philip of Macedon
[This message has been edited by Marquis de Sodaq (edited May 10, 2001).]

[East Street Trader]

It is certainly true that pirates only land when there is a city close at hand - in my current game there is one of those barb boats which you sometimes see endless hanging about off a remote, uninhabited but visible, coast. And I remember a period when I used to send a diplo off, hoping his presence would trip them to land and I'd get a shot at bribing the boat. It doesn't work. A city it must be.

But once they start landing they don't have to land right next to the city. So when the boat is in a narrow channel I have often seen one or two barb units put down on each side.

But such an event is rare compared to the many situations where barbs get to be generated by the presence or activities of an enemy civ.

In the games I've been playing (early Republic) once the developed advanced tribes started I have had a succession of them. Different sizes and different buildings certainly, but all developed in some way. When I used to re-load after disappointing outcomes I noticed that the developers have written in a small deterent in that the second and all subsequent times you fight a battle you do so at some disadvantage. So a battle very narrowly lost the first time fought may require twenty subsequent replays to get a win whereas the ordinary odds would suggest that two or three times ought to be giving good chances. Something similar may be operating in the case of re-loaded huts.

But I have only been watching the developed advanced tribe thing for two or three gams so I can see that you may well be right. I'm not doing too great at getting to the bottom of the style of early Republic which I've been trying so I'll keep watching.

[War4ever]

I have been one to believe that advanced tribes which are far away from your central estate are often outposts generated to allow quicker contact with the ai......

Say perhaps an ai on a different continent...... the tribe is sort of pointing you in the direction of your rival.

As for those tribes with improvements..... if it is multiple structures, i often sell one which is costing me money right away and then figure out if i need the others..... usually the market as the corruption makes it highly unlikely it is paying for itself.....after that its the granary...

I wonder if their is only a few improvements you can receive.... ie never seen a bank..... nor a university.... makes me believe that only "first round improvements" can be given for free....

I have seen an aquaduct.... library, grainery, market, barracks, and harbours

never coastal forts though

[solo]

East Street Trader,

My experience confirms your assumption about Invention being the trigger, but perhaps it triggers just the possibility of the hut being one with improvements, since I have never seen an advanced tribe with extra stuff before Invention. However, Republic and Democracy are also discovered in about the same time frame, and it could be that one of these might be the trigger, instead. All we know for sure is that Invention stops any more tech coming from huts and that it kicks off a change in eras. Maybe others who have paid closer attention can shed some light here.

Even when the map is well-revealed, I've noticed that brand new barbarians only appear nearby civilizations, the player's or the AI's, because on large maps, where I've explored and revealed every corner, I don't remember ever seeing them spawn in remote uninhabited areas. So your inferences from their unannounced appearances seem quite accurate to me.

I've got to agree 100% about exploration as the top early priority. I can't wait to get that first trireme built and launched, as they are so valuable in this regard. For now on, I will also start building explorers again to accompany my diplomats to exploit your method of exploring with this duo. A very useful tip, since a dead diplomat halfway across the map makes for a very long, sad, row back home.

[rah]

I recall getting walls once. But I'm an old man whose memory could be suspect.

RAH
But other than that, my experience is the same as reported in terms of improvements.
[This message has been edited by rah (edited May 11, 2001).]

[SlowThinker]

{goody huts}{advances}{barb}
{}{SlowThinker}

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This is a post with keywords. See The Great Library: a hierarchical structure" thread.

[EOL]

quote: Originally posted by War4ever on 05-11-2001 12:07 AM I wonder if their is only a few improvements you can receive.... ie never seen a bank..... nor a university.... makes me believe that only "first round improvements" can be given for free.... I have seen an aquaduct.... library, grainery, market, barracks, and harbours never coastal forts though

Same experience for me. I've often wanted some city walls up since the barbs invariably turn up at my remote outpost in large numbers a couple of turns later .

EOL

[EthnicCleanser]

Rich i don't think you get any improvements in MP with huts though..... at least in all my experiences i haven't had it happen yet dating as far back as i can remmeber.

Timbo

[Jarouik]

I do not remember noticing any pattern in the appearance of advanced tribes that would point to nearby AIs or anything... although it seems to me that rather than being completely random, in some games I get advanced tribes and/or free settlers from huts all the time, whereas in others I will have to wait a long time in the beginning before I get a single one.

Of course, it might just be that once I happen to get a few advanced tribes and free units early on, I can start expanding and exploring even more rapidly, which leads to yet more advanced tribes and free units or settlers. In this way, early advanced tribes can really make all the difference on Deity level. In my most recent game I started on a huge continent alone with the Chinese, which I destroyed very early on, and happened to get an advanced tribe with one of my starting settlers, and lots of advanced tribes and free settlers all around the continent soon after that as well - much more than I remember ever having before! This led to my first game ever in which I became downright invincible very early on on Deity, without conquering anyone but the neighboring Chinese with only two cities. I even managed to build the Pyramids and Hanging Gardens before the computer built any wonders, since my capital city location was so good. Moreover, I kept getting advanced tribes instead of Barbarians even though I had selected raging hordes as Barbarian activity level. Has anyone else noticed a pattern in advanced tribes, namely that there are a disproportionate amount of games where you seem to be getting lots of them, or was I just incredibly lucky?

[East Street Trader]

My experience matches yours to some extent, Jarouk. In a game where an advanced tribe comes along quite early and on your own continent that tribe is often the harbinger of more to follow. In other games there are no advanced tribes outcomes until you have got well into the game and are tipping on foreign shores.

If you get one advanced triobe and tip another hut in the same turn you are very likely to get a second. (Indeed that is true of all outcomes except barbs and wandering tribes).

I suggested at the start of this thread that a player's discovery of Invention is the trigger for developed advanced tribes appearing. In the game I was playing over this week end I got a developed advanced tribe before discovering Invention. However an A1 civ had discovered Invention a turn or two beforehand so I now propose that it is the discovery of Invention by any civ (plus a turn or two) which triggers developed advanced tribes.

Edited to add a post script. Does anyone know whether Invention ending discoveries from huts also operates from the moment the first civ discovers it?
[This message has been edited by East Street Trader (edited May 14, 2001).]

[Blaupanzer]

EST, yes, it would appear so based on my experience, anecdotal only since I've known to watch for this. Any civ gets Invention, advances disappear.

The "pattern factor" in huts has been noted before. If you get more than one of some result, then you seem to get a lot of that result -- often several in a row. Be it money, barbs, tribes, advances, or nomads -- the results often come two or three at a time, as much as four or five out of group of ten.

In addition to the improvements already mentioned for advanced tribes, I often get temples with later advanced tribes. In fact, my most common result when we get to that point in the game has been a 3-citizen city with temple, marketplace, and library. I cannot verify that Invention starts this process, however.

The advanced tribe pointing toward another civ seems less likely. If you are like most of us you explore close first, farther away later. Hence, the longer into the game you get, the farther away are the huts being tipped. By game mechanics, these explorers are getting closer to other civs. Thus, the advanced tribes are closer to other civs by exploration planning, not as any program-designed secret plan to reveal "the Way."

[EthnicCleanser]

quote: Originally posted by Blaupanzer on 05-14-2001 01:41 PM EST, yes, it would appear so based on my experience, anecdotal only since I've known to watch for this. Any civ gets Invention, advances disappear. "

in mp games this isn't true....... any civ which hasn't discovered invention can still get techs from huts unitl their civ discovers or steals it from another ........ this happened to me the other day.....

Someone built Leos..... 8 turns later i got medicine from a hut