Are libraries worthwhile?

[Dis]

in your main cities of course (not the SSC obviously)

I've been looking for tips to beat diety. and one seems to be I have been building too many improvements. No one mentions building libraries. So I'm assuming no one builds them except in SSC correct? What about you capitol. Although it usually isn't my SSC it usually does well in research. I figure a library will help. I also build them in my other core cities (either first 5 or first 10 cities built depending on map size)

[Archangel MasterBob]

Libraries are a must since the trading co takes care of the expense.

[Rufus T. Firefly]

I've only just started winning at Deity, Dissident, so while I don't bring the expertise others might, my experience is probably closer to yours. In my experience the SSC provides enough science output on its own; shields in other cities are better devoted to caravans to trade or help build wonders. That being said, I do sometimes build libraries in other cities, but only under a couple of circumstances: a) I didn't get Mike's Chapel, so I can't keep science as high as I'd like because I have to divert money to luxuries; b) I have a big city where there's nothing left to build; c) I have a small city that isn't generating enough tax money to warrant a marketplace and isn't well-positioned for trade; d) I'm so freaking rich I can rush build it and not even notice. But the bottom line for me is, the SSC is really enough.

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Dig trenches, with our men being killed off like flies? There isn't time to dig trenches. We'll have to buy them ready made. Here, run out and get some trenches.
-- Rufus T. Firefly, the original rush-builder

[Smash]

You're probably better off going with trade routes,markets,banks and stock exchanges first.Libraries can be built later if neccessary.

[Scouse Gits]

Outside of obvious candidates like the SSC and a city with the Gardens my rule of thumb is at least 6 beakers raw production and two genuine trade caravans already produced and (at least) en route.

I have to be careful - the Grand Admiral, SG2, does not approve of investment in 'laundrettes'

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Scouse Git[1]

"Staring at your screen in horror and disbelief when you open a saved game is one of the fun things of a succession game " - Hueij
"The Great Library must be built!"
"A short cut has to be challenging,
were it not so it would be 'the way'." - Paul Craven

[La Fayette]

IMO winning at deity level is very much a question of choosing the right investments.
To make it simple, you can use what we economists would call a simplified payback method. Here it is, in short:
1) Cost:
A library costs 80 shields, which means roughly 160 gold.
2) Revenue:
If your city produces 20 beakers without library, it will produce 30 beakers after you have built the library. The library gives you 10 beakers/turn.
3) Payback
You can trade 1 gold/1 beaker using the 'tax rate' settings, hence 10 gold/turn means that you pay back your investment of 160 gold in 16 turns, which is not bad at all IMHO.
My advice would be: don't make that kind of calculations just before growing your city with WLT*D or establishing your 3 trade routes. But, if you do it afterwards, it gives you a rough but interesting idea of the rentability of your investment.
My even shorter advice would be: don't build any library in a city producing less than 10 beakers/turn, unless you intend to make it grow very fast and very soon.
(on the other hand it is not wise not to build a library in a city already producing 30 beakers!)

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aux bords mystérieux du monde occidental

[East Street Trader]

In the broadest of broad terms I would say that as your game developes so the longer you seem to delay building infrastructure.

Another sweeping generalisation is that the time in a game when it suddenly becomes right to build stuff is the same time when (quite suddenly as it often seems) you get over the brow of the hill and everything gets easier. There is gold in the coffers, you are no longer having to compete for wonders and the military side of things is under reasonable control. You find yourself incrementally rush buying stuff all over.

Now some exceptions. Temples first and foremost (if you are any sort of perfectionist). You must battle with unhappiness from day one. If you don't you will get stuck in Monarchy (which can be perfectly OK but leaves you bored and limited in the end by reason of having only one style).

Harbours are another special case. If you want to keep expanding you have constantly to try to limit the amount of land improvement you do so as to keep more cities going down. Harbours helps with this. In addition you can sustain WLT-D better with them in place. I sometimes find the very first thing I do in some cities is to get them started on a harbour.

City Walls. The very moment after you say "Yes!!" after the advanced tribe comes to light on a new continent or other remote location, start thinking City Walls.

And Courthouse for that matter.

Marketplaces. Again their importance is connected with WLT-D. They improve both tax revenue AND luxury production. A library improves only science output. This is why, despite the fact that 70% of the city's productiveness may be going into science for long periods (and hence it might seem sensible to work on getting the very best return on that side of things) it will often - even usually - be right to go for a marketplace before a library. The minute you shift the luxuries away from zero (or hire an elvis or two for that matter) a marketplace starts helping you out. The key to good WLT-D management is co-ordinating things so that few of your cities fail to grow during the period when you rack up happiness and those that do celebrate do so for several turns in succession, not just sporadically. And, if you try early Republic, you will want WLT-D as soon as you have a handful of size three cities.

Which bring me to your question, Libraries. If your game is going well I suspect you will rarely give them any very great priority. Your science will be getting plenty of boosts from the trade bonus and your expansion and arrow income from routes will underpin your civ's needs on the arrow front. Advances cost fewer beakers early and lots of advances can be got from exchanges and from huts. Your attention will be taken up with shields, with WLT-D (if basing your game on representational gov.t), with agriculture, with exploration, with wonders and with military needs.

But say your game is going badly. Well then a library or two - perhaps in a coastal city with good agriculture so that you are already working some ocean squares and or have the prospect of doing so or a city which can work one or two trade specials or one that gets lucky with one or two high yield foreign trade routes early can give you a good leg up.

But now I think you'll be getting the hang of it. Bring the library to the arrows not the arrows to the library. So build the caravan first (and the triremes that get it to the distant Babs city which beat you to the Collosus) and build the harbour that makes it possible to work the ocean squares first, then build the library (if you really need it) afterwards.

For completeness (wouldn't wish to be too brief after all ) I'll add a comment on the granary. If you plan to stay in Monarchy and to achieve growth by natural rather than WLT-D means, early granaries are excellent. I'd go so far as to say that of the various styles I've tried this gives the highest prospects of winning in the most secure way. It's not quick, though, and I doubt a war monger would like it as patience is needed. It works particularly well if you find yourself in a large grasslands/wheat special continent on a large map. But in fact, in this sort of game the Pyramids should be your wonder of choice ahead of even the Gardens or the Collosus.

Last generalisation. The reason for low infrastructure priority during the early phase is that during this time there is so much to do. Defence is vital. Exploration is vital. Getting cities down is vital. Wonders and trade routes are not vital but the return on them measured in opportunity cost terms is much greater than from infrastructure. But later, when the core cities are thriving and the opportunity to explore and to expand is less, the balance swings.

Nice thing is, like an elephant, you know this moment when you see it.

So if you are wondering if it is worth building something, don't. The moment hasn't yet come.

Hope that wasn't too brief.

[George Garrett]

As another beginner at Deity, I largely follow Davev's strategy, building a city every other square, apart from those, concentrate on settlers,Wonders, roads, a ship, or two if on an Archipelago map, until I achieve the cherished state of Fundy (via SoL)...my first city improvement, then, is a library -to help make up for fundy's one flaw, the halved science output...while I'm waiting for the University advance, I will also go for harbour, granary, market place, time permitting, in a city, but, in Fundy, libraries/universities are my first priorities.
[This message has been edited by George Garrett (edited March 29, 2001).]

[Blaupanzer]

I agree with lord_of_the_mark. I win regularly at deity, large map now. I push expansion (settlers & temples) and trade (caravans and marketplaces) until I build Adam Smith. Then, I turn to harbors, libraries, and granaries, in that order. These items are now valuable, cost nothing to support, and can be sustained as growth breaks out all over. Prior to that time, I conciously keep my cities at less than 8 in population.

The overall answer to the question "Are __________ worthwhile?" is always, "In its time."

[lord of the mark]

Heres another beginner at Deity tossing in his 2 cents.

I agree that one of the harder things at deity is shaking my habit of building lots of improvements. especially as what i like about civ is the sense of building and improving an empire, some of the deity level strats (both ICS and OCC) seem rather artificial and abstract from the historical point of view. nonetheless, especially for us less than perfect players it is necessary to hold back on improvements.

You can build a couple of caravans for the shield cost of a library. Now a caravan, if you send it to a reasonably good place will get you an instant 20 - 50 beakers. a library in a 6 beaker city will take between 6 and 17 turns to return that. In the meantime the caravan is also giving you an instant 20 to 50 gold, and around 1 gold or more per turn (depending), while the library is costing 1 gold per turn until you get Adams.

If ive done things right im ahead enough (or close enough) in tech at mid game i constantly have WOW's to build, so i have plenty of need for caravans in addition to trade routes. midgame there is a profusion of valuable wonders, - copernicus and Ikes for SSC, Leos, Mikes, Bachs (if i dont have oracle) SOL, and Adams. Completing adams is a key turning point i think - by this time there arent many more crucial wonders coming up, and i have a lot of trade routes already established. Hopefully ive got leos, releiving me of shield requirements for defense upgrades. Most cities have temples and walls, some have aqueducts,markets and courthouses. And one gold iomprovements no longer cost anything. Now it is generally the time to build improvements like mad, markets, harbors, libraries, court houses.

It feels ahistorical to wait till late renaisance for markets and libraries, but i think one must be better at the game to pull off a more realistic startegy.

LOTM

[Hasdrubal]

I rarely ever build libraries. In a typical game, I would have my science rate set as high as possible until about the first 10 or 15 discoveries. Then at some point, somewhere in the first few centuries A.D., I'll reduce my science rate right down to 0%, with a bit of science produced from an 'Einstein'. All my tech will then come from stealing, trading, 'tech-broking', caravans and conquering.