the ten-shield musketeer trick failed me!

[debeest]

One of my favorite sleazy tricks is to get Leonardo's Workshop without getting feudalism, and keep on cranking out ten-shield warriors that upgrade to thiryt-shield musketeers when I finally do get feudalism. Pikemen, archers, and legions upgrade with gunpowder, but warriors and phalanxes don't upgrade until you get feudalism. I'm sure you've all taken advantage of this.

In my last game, I got Leo's without feudalism, and all my warriors upgraded and I wasn't allowed to build any more! Anybody ever had that happen?

[Smash]

Only once in a blue moon do I get a city that doesn't update automatically.Pretty rare for me.

[Scouse Gits]

I can't recall this ever happening for me - Feudalism is not one of my favourite techs so I frequently get Leo's without it, but - if it has been happening for me I haven't noticed (and I do micromanage so should have noticed!)
Are you playing 2.42?



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Scouse Git[1]

"CARTAGO DELENDA EST" - Cato the Censor
"The Great Library must be built!"
"A short cut has to be challenging,
were it not so it would be 'the way'." - Paul Craven

[East Street Trader]

I'm another 2.42 and it doesn't happen in my games either.

I do, every now and then, get the opposite. After feudalism the cities set to produce warriors carry on doing so. If you change the production orders, warriors stops being an option but if you leave the city to its own devices the automatic upgrade doesn't kick in.

Looks like that happens to Smash sometimes too.

It came up in a game I had not so long ago and I didn't really relish taking advantage. It must be a bug and, anyway, it distorts the way you're playing rather unattractively. So I'm not sure I'd take advantage again.

[Mercantile]

debeest, you are correct. I have had the same option as you. I believe that as long as you dont change prduction, AND you finish production of the warrior, the turn leos upgrades your units to muskets, you can continue producing warriors in those respective cities.
I have seen this many times but i am not 100% sure my theory on this is correct.

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Do you shovel snow in your birkenstocks?

[DaveV]

This used to be the staple of my single-player strategy. There's no trick of timing needed; you can keep building warriors until you discover Feudalism. Every time you acquire a new tech, the warriors will upgrade to musketeers. Once you discover Gunpowder, warriors are not an option on the build menu, but your cities that were building warriors can keep building them.

[debeest]

DaveV, your description EXACTLY matches what I'm used to. Even the part about the warriors upgrading, even though they're "not obsolete yet" because you don't have feudalism. I wasn't sure about that part, so I expressed it differently in my first post. Whew! I was beginning to think early senility might be setting in.

So, ever had the warrior option disappear on you even though you didn't have feudalism yet? Any idea why that might happen?

[DaveV]

debeest - I'm still not clear on your situation. Did your cities' production upgrade from warriors to musketeers when you didn't have Feudalism? Or were you unable to select warriors as an option to build, even though you didn't have Feudalism? The latter case is standard, because all of the pre-gunpowder infantry units are "obsoleted" by gunpowder, though not, in the case of phalanxes and warriors, in such a way as to upgrade production automatically.

[Blaupanzer]

My most recent game (in 2.42) saw warriors and phalanxes (and other infantry riff-raff) all go to musketeeras upon Gunpowder, although I did not yet have Feudalism. That's not usual for me as I try very hard in my games for the Great Library and then let the others find and share Feudalism for me. Subsequent captured/bribed phalanxes also updated with new techs. Finally, two others turned the "switch by sharing Feudalism. Have others shared debeest's experience?

[debeest]

Now I'm puzzled. I play 2.42, on PC. I'm pretty sure I've ALWAYS been able to build warriors until I learned feudalism, until this exceptional situation. I think the chart that comes with the game identifies the techs that cause units to become obsolete, and I think feudalism makes warriors and phalanxes obsolete, but I'm at work and can't check right now. Units are only supposed to upgrade (and disappear from the building list) when they're obsolete. Pikemen, archers, and legions all go obsolete with gunpowder, so they upgrade and you can't build them anymore. But if you don't have feudalism yet, you should still be able to build warriors and phalanxes.

EST, you can usually keep on building what you've been building before, even if it's obsolete or it's a Wonder that's been built, so long as you don't click on "change." (Even then, except at the lowest playing level(s?), you can just choose to build something that would cause you 50% shield loss, and it'll let you go back to what you were doing.) This is almost always an option for me, although every now and then for unknown reasons the option disappears.

Now I'm wondering if my memory is completely wrong and I could only keep on building warriors during the niche between building Leo's and learning gunpowder? Or maybe after learning gunpowder but BEFORE building Leo's? Aargh. Some things are not so easy to test, even with the cheat menu.

[debeest]

In truth, at this point, I don't remember for sure. But I think I got the whole schmeer: units upgraded, units under construction upgraded, and no further option to build the obsolete units. Otherwise I wouldn't have been so surprised by it.

[East Street Trader]

Pre Feudalism, my experience matches yours - I can continue building warriors. I don't know what stopped that happening in the game which led you to start the thread.

Where our experiences differ tho' is post Feudalism. What happens to me is that even tho' I've left the instructions to build warriors untouched I get a message flash onto the screen (during the build queue phase of the turn I think) telling me that the game has automatically changed the instructions from build warriors into instructions to build pikemen. That also happens with instructions to build other obsolete units.

This can be annoying. Sometimes, when I know the city is one turn off producing a unit which will, immediately it appears, contribute to maintaining martial law, I work one more square. But when the automatic overide cuts in and (if the new unit is more costly than the obsolete one), the unit I was relying upon to appear isn't built, I'm short on martial law and the mayor does a runner.

If I'm not pursuing conquests I often neglect the Chivalry line. Horsemen then remain the cheap martial law option and are useful fellows in other ways too.

As mentioned in my earlier post the automatic upgrade of build instructions just occasionally doesn't happen when it is warriors being built. I've never known the automatic upgrade not to happen with other obsolete units but I have sometimes noticed that the machine has waited until just before a unit is about to be built to flash the "Horsemen upgraded to knights in Estoniaville" message on screen.

[Lefty Scaevola]

. With MGE ,upon gunpowder discovery, all warrior production is upgraded to musketeer, and the warrior becomes unavailable.

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Gauis Mucius Scaevola Sinistra
Pontificator Pendanticus
older richer & wiser than you

[debeest]

Actually, EST, your experience DOES match mine. Feudalism makes the choice go away and I get the message you describe. I've had the same annoying thing happen, where I'm all set to have a unit build and then I'm suddenly building a more expensive unit. I just don't know why the choice went away when I didn't have feudalism yet.

[Legman]

quote: Originally posted by debeest on 11-21-2000 02:47 PM I've had the same annoying thing happen, where I'm all set to have a unit build and then I'm suddenly building a more expensive unit. I just don't know why the choice went away when I didn't have feudalism yet.

Interesting point this. I seem to have noticed that Leonardo's in some cases does upgrades of build orders and existing units upon the discovery of other techs than just military ones. Unfortunately, I can't remember which ones right now, but I'm confident that Feudalism, Chivalry etc. aren't the only ones that trigger upgrades. Some economic and applied discoveries cause upgrades too.