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The AI cheats (but please think like a programmer)

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  • #16
    I'm also of the opinion that the AI could have been made better given a wet weekend's work.

    One thing which would massively help it would be the instruction to
    1) Improve tiles which are being worked, and
    2) Don't improve tiles which aren't being worked.

    I can't see a particular problem with this, just have a city controller AI flag which squares it would like improved, and how.
    These days I play Alpha Centauri mostly, and I have seen the AI in that build a mine on flat (i.e. the wrong type of) terrain which wasn't in the radius of it's base.

    And the battlefield AI wouldn't be so hard either. In Smac the AI attacks with up to 20 (occasionally more) troops at a time, but it stacks them all on the same square and then sends them. They die from counter-attacks. Have them spread out a little and they would be dangerous.

    Or an algorithm to count the number of squares on an island - just a simple floodfill, like you get in MS paint - and increase the priority of naval techs if it is small. Or to reduce settler production if there are no more city sites (Area/(21*city-number) = 1, if you want to be lazy).

    Or to steal tech when an opponent is ahead, rather than at random or not at all.

    Or to work out whether the base will grow next turn, and if so to work out if doing so will make the city discontent, and finally if so to create an elvis.

    Or not to build marketplaces until they will pay for themselves. Likewise banks, stock exchanges, and on a more abstract level libraries and universities.

    Or not to attack with warriors when your opponent is using tanks (yes, I've actually had this, a warrior and a catapult from a trireme while I way conducting a modern-age war. And yes, on Diety.)

    I'm one of those players who trounces the AI at Deity, and I wonder how many people who play on lower levels know the extent to which is cheats. Open up the editor and count the columns of minerals & food. If you had nearly halved production costs, nearly double growth, king-level happiness, no maintainance, wouldn't you be rather incredible at the game? Watch a game with the map revealed. I think you will be astounded by how bad the AI actually is.

    Yes, it has to cheat in order to put up a really good show. But ask players like Ming what sort of effect optimizing a city each turn, so that it grows a turn sooner, produces a turn sooner, or *doesn't go into revolt* makes. A computer is perfect for this, it doesn't take any great strategies.

    I wish the AI were open, then I would put my code where my mouth is. Sadly, from the 10-minute look I had at Clash, they don't need AI help.

    Anyway, enough ranting.
    "Wise men make proverbs, but fools repeat them."
    - Samuel Palmer

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    • #17
      Some of the supporters of AI basically the way as it is, think that those of us who want to see the AI improved insist it be able to beat a person in a fair fight. Clearly that's unrealistic! What at least I personally want in Civ III is:
      1. A set of difficulty levels where there is one the best players can't beat with their eyes closed, and,
      2. An AI without the gross defects of the sort Simpson II and others have spoken of.

      And if they make the AI avoid some of the really boneheaded things, and occasionally do clever things, the amount it has to cheat to be able to beat a good human player will be reduced substantially.

      Simpson II: Thanks for the list of some of the AI's gross inadequacies... And on Clash, we'd still like to hear what you think of our plans. I'm sure there are some straightforward things (like the approaches you point out with respect to Civ) that we won't think of. The more people discussing these things in the context of the Clash models, the better a game it will be!
      Project Lead for The Clash of Civilizations
      A Unique civ-like game that will feature low micromanagement, great AI, and a Detailed Government model including internal power struggles. Demo 8 available Now! (go to D8 thread at top of forum).
      Check it out at the Clash Web Site and Forum right here at Apolyton!

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      • #18
        Sanmdan,
        A car recall IS a patch. And as I said, manufacturers do not do patches to make cars more interesting. They do them to make you less likely to get killed. For example:

        (Press release Microprose released patch 1.2 for ToT today, after it was determined that approximately 0.001 % of gamers will go into violent, possibly fatal convulsions, when hearing the sound of an elephant attacking, immediately after they hear the game sound of cannon fire. All ToT players are earnestly urged to update their files. The patch ensures that some sort of goblin will always be interpolated between the cannon and elephant sounds. "While we were at it, we improved the AI combat logic, made it easy for scenario designers to animate their own units, included instructions for better controlling the random generation of maps 1, 2 and 3, and added a map editor," said a spokesperson for MP. "We tested out the map editor on maps produced by our rock solid civ2-to-ToT scenario converter, also included in the patch." Foreign language versions of the patch are expected in about two to three months; foreign language players are urged to turn off sound effects interim...


        - toby




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        criticalpaths@mindspring.com
        toby robison
        criticalpaths@mindspring.com

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        • #19
          lol good point

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          • #20
            quote:

            Originally posted by tobyr on 07-22-2000 10:20 PM

            (Press release Microprose released patch 1.2 for ToT today, after it was determined that approximately 0.001 % of gamers will go into violent, possibly fatal convulsions, when hearing the sound of an elephant attacking, immediately after they hear the game sound of cannon fire. All ToT players are earnestly urged to update their files. The patch ensures that some sort of goblin will always be interpolated between the cannon and elephant sounds. "While we were at it, we improved the AI combat logic, made it easy for scenario designers to animate their own units, included instructions for better controlling the random generation of maps 1, 2 and 3, and added a map editor," said a spokesperson for MP. "We tested out the map editor on maps produced by our rock solid civ2-to-ToT scenario converter, also included in the patch." Foreign language versions of the patch are expected in about two to three months; foreign language players are urged to turn off sound effects interim...

            - toby




            Are you sirious??
            I looked through the site and i didnt found anything about the 1.2 patch???
            and where can I fine the converter, I suffer from a lack of quality scenario games!

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            • #21
              It's called sarcasm. Anyhow, if there was such a patch wouldn't we all have it by now?
              [This message has been edited by Shadowstrike (edited July 23, 2000).]
              *grumbles about work*

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              • #22
                You sounded serious...

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                • #23
                  Of course the AI has to cheat. But with some of the changes mentioned above, as well as scripting, it could be made a whole lot better. In fact, I'll mention a cheat I think the AI should be given that would make it better. Much better. Planning a coordinated assault involving assempling a force and moving it to the target is a bit much for an AI I would imagine. The hardest part being assembling the force and timing its arrival at the enemy city. Better to give the AI a build option of "assault force" in one city, consisting of whatever is needed; for example 2 caravels, 5 crusaders, and a dip with a remarkable ability to destroy city walls on the first try. Allow it to pour the resources of the whole civ to build the assault force. then, when built, choose an enemy coastal city, move the force there as a single unit, and attack in a scripted pre determined order. After the assault the AI disassembles what's left of the group, and treats them as separate units. With a powerful scripting language these plans could become far more intricate and dangerous, all without involving any evaluation or forsight on the part of the AI, beyond randomly selecting an enemy city that meets certain pre determined criteria for the assault force.

                  And I personally don't think that one level to be somewhat challenging to the experienced player is good enough. I think there should be a level at which the best civ 2 players will get waxed consistently, and two more levels above that. That way maybe 3 months from it's release date the game will still be somewhat of a challenge.
                  The camel is not a part of civ.
                  THE CAMEL IS CIV !!!!
                  SAVE THE CAMEL !!!!!!

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                  • #24
                    Some simple things that could be done to drastically improve the CivII AI:

                    1) Calculate combat odds before attacking that fortified Alpine in a mountain fortress.
                    Attack en masse or go around fortifications.

                    2) Forget Catapults, Cannon and Artillery until the era of railroads. Attack with mounted units.

                    3) Never knowingly move units adjacent to fortified positions or cities unless the unit can also attack that turn.

                    4) Bring along Engineers to build fortresses for assaulting fortified positions.

                    5) Don't stack more than 2 units in a square outside a fortress.

                    6) Build more Diplomats and Spies. Use them, esp. to get around ZOC.

                    7) Build city walls. It is ridiculous to find size 12 cities with no walls. Nothing stops the early conquerer quicker than walls.

                    8) Build the road first before irrigating.

                    9) Change corn to silk, pheasant to buffalo, iron to wine, etc.

                    10) Don't build the Eiffel Tower. Ever.

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                    • #25
                      I agree with the comments about decent micomanagement by AI cities. As important is a decent logarithm for locating cities. We have all seen AI city locations where the city could be located so that it had whales, wine, pheasant, and iron as specials and somehow the city was located to miss the whale and wine. At present the algorithm seems to deliberately pick inferior locations.

                      It has occurred to me that perhaps the people who program this game may not be that good at actually playing the game. Perhaps a few good players could be invited for a weekend of playing and talking to the programmers. Say have a multiplayer game and have a programmer talking to each of the players while the player is playing.

                      This message is probably worth less than $.02.
                      If you can not think of a good reason to build something other than a caravan, build a caravan!

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                      • #26
                        jpk - I think that you may have put your finger right on the spot - the programmers and designers had no real idea that their product was going to evolve into the game that we now know, love & beat into pulp on a regular basis - I'm fairly certain that ICS or OCC were never imagined and you can go on from there...



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                        Scouse Git[1]

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                        • #27
                          Certainly the designers of the game are not the best players. I remember reading in the manual that, for Civ 1, they predicted that the computer could be beaten, but 'not consistently', on Emperor level! On the other hand, they probably don't have enough time to do a really brilliant AI before releasing the game - with constantly shifting rules, it would be hard to become expert. This is why the AI needs to be open, or at least updated after a month or two.
                          Still, that doesn't excuse the kind of idiotic mistakes the Civ2 AI makes.
                          "Wise men make proverbs, but fools repeat them."
                          - Samuel Palmer

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                          • #28
                            Scouse Gits:

                            It occurs to me that it is no easier to develop an algorithm that picks a "one off" location for a city than develop an algorithm that picks the sweet spot for a city location. Perhaps it is even harder. If this is so, then the programmers may have felt the need to weaken the algorithms so they, or their game testers, could win.
                            If you can not think of a good reason to build something other than a caravan, build a caravan!

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