OCC with size 4 city

[samson]

Size 1 OCC? Here are some thoughts:

I'm in the middle of my second size4 game (Paul's new Fortnight post).
The starting position has two whales/two wine whereas my first size4 game
had two whales/two gold. The difference being a mere 4 trade arrows.
However, in this game I am about ten techs behind where I was in the other
game in 600 AD. I'm only getting techs every 4 turns (about to drop to 5)
instead of 3 turns in the original game. It seems a small thing (4 arrows)
but when run through a 6X science multiplier, it gets magnified.

The thing is, in these small city games you have 0 income because you have
to run at 100% science. Trade caravans pay less than the cost of rushbuilding them.
So your only source of gold is gifts from worshipful civs. And the only
way to keep them worshipful is to feed them techs. When your tech rate
drops to 5 turns, it becomes more difficult to satisfy them. I've already
lost one alliance and its revenue stream.

I think if your total trade is below 40 arrows, you won't be able to
research fast enough to keep your allies' gifts flowing freely.
Which means you won't have enough cash to buy caravans and build SS parts.

A size one city (on any map I've seen) can only work one special.
If you have a river city square and a gold/river special you'll get
14 trade arrows under Democracy with Colossus. Three trade routes
might get you up to 20, maybe 24 arrows. With a 6X science multiplier
you'll get at most 144 beakers per turn. When you get to the later techs
you're looking at 10 turns per advance and the AI will be ahead of you. At which point,
I think you're screwed.

More later.

samson

[Mixam]

Granted it won't be easy and i know i could not do it but i believe that someone (not me I haven't even tried OCC yet) could do it. People in this forum continue to amaze me. I believe the key to this strat would obviously be some luck with huts and stealing tech from the AI then giving it to others to make them happy. Once again requiring some luck to get the right techs you don't want off track techs obviously and likely won't get spys. I have seen special squares 1 square apart along the 0 line (what is it called by the way i forget). Obviously very hard to get on a random map but i have seen it happen. And wouldn't you get a little income anyways as you would be changing the tax rate to avoid the loss of science beakers. Sorry I am out of my league here I think it can be done but i can't prove it. Hopefully someone will be able to do it and prove me right.
[This message has been edited by Mixam (edited April 18, 2001).]

[solo]

These OCC games with smaller cities are a brilliant next step in the refinement of OCC games and techniques. Congratulations on showing how successful the showstring strategy can be. I never would have thought such a small city could do well enough in science, but with only four specials, it makes sense just to concentrate on quality.

Now that you've tried size 4, how would you say it compares with your earlier shoestring game? What size city, in your opinion, is optimal?

I agree with your assessment of Colossus and have often preceded it with Copernicus in my games, but when playing OCC, dare I say the "old way", there was usually nothing available that was better to build early in the game, and it helped "we love" and trade later on, so why not start with it?

Did you limit trading to just 3 trade routes? I've always put a priority on it in my games for the beaker and gold payoffs, which boost tech progress early in the game, but I guess with size 4, the payoffs are not over 200, the level where trade becomes the most efficient use of caravans.

[samson]

Smash -

Re: Republic vs. Celebrating Monarchy.

Both provide the same Trade, but the 80% science rate under Republic gives it the edge.

I favor Republic in OCC over Monarchy as a first government.
If you start out even (as to techs) it only takes one more advance to get Republic
than it does to get Monarchy. And on the way you get Writing to build a library
which is usually my first priority.

Using this game as an example, at population 4 you get 25 trade and 30 science
under Republic with a Library and a Temple.
A celebrating Monarchy (throwing in the Colossus Wonder) produces 30 trade
but only 21 science. That gives Republic/Library a 43% research advantage
over Monarchy and Colossus.
And you can get library built long before Colossus while Republic (with the accelerated
research from library) comes only shortly after you would have had Monarchy.
Of course, if you start out with Ceremonial Burial it shortens the path and time
to Monarchy and makes it worth going for.

The other advantage of early Republic is that you can quickly build your population
up to 5 with just a Temple and a 20% Lux rate and increase both Trade and Science.
This will get you even further ahead of the Monarchy path, which is probably still
at population 3.

Ribannah -

I've tried both Hanging Gardens and Marco Polo in OCC. I'm surprised that
they're not used more often. HG gives you the same increase in trade as Colossus
under Monarchy (celebrating) and under Republic can you can run your population
up to 8 with it.

I built Marco Polo as my first Wonder in a one square island OCC Comparison game
where you started out beyond of trireme range. It gave early alliances, lots of gold,
knowing where to send the caravans, and I did quite well as I recall.

The successes people have had with the OCC "standard" have been impressive,
but experimentation is what will bring the next breakthrough.

As to Copernicus, it's not always possible to build it as your first Wonder,
you need some luck with starting techs, huts, or trading with other civs.
But if you have a chance to get Astronomy early on, it's definitely worth going for.

Solo -

My Size8 game was a first attempt at a small city game and I still had some mental baggage
as to what the tech path should be and what improvements were worth building.
Size4 taught me to strip things down to the bare minimum. After you get
the techs needed for science improvements and Wonders, the research path is
wide open. You can research things in almost any order. Bridge building
and Railroad are useful if you have river squares or mines to enhance.
But Darwin's Voyage I save until late in the game when the turn-rate falls off.
Automobile and Computers are a long ways away and many paths can lead you there.

As for what city size is optimal, I don't know yet. Maybe 12.
It depends on the game situation. I think under many circumstances you could
do as well, if not better, with a size 12 city as you can with a megalopolis.
I need to look into this more.

I think one goal of playing with small cities, is to refine your opening gameplay.
After all, even big cities start out small.

Trade routes and caravans - yes. I only built three routes in this game.
The payoff for caravans is miniscule, usually under 100 gold,
often less than the rushbuild cost of the caravan. But they can be useful
in "topping off" research when you are just a few beakers short of saving a turn.
In my second Size4 game, I used them that way and delayed my turn-rate falloff a few times.

More thoughts on Size 1 OCC:

I'm not saying it's impossible.
And I sincerely doubt that it's provably impossible.
But you'd have to use a hybrid strategy, I think.

Start with an aggressive hut-hunt, maybe on a large map, while going for
science improvements in your little town.
Maybe you should skip Wonder building altogether, just build caravans.
Alliances and gifts would still be extremely important early on. But at some point,
when the AIs can outresearch you, you'd need to switch to a new strategy.
Maybe station lots of diplos around AI towns, wait for someone else to
get Space Flight, steal it and then, assuming you piled up a lot of gold
and caravans, race for AC.
Something like that, maybe. It would be tough and require a lot of luck.

Or, you could cheat.
Hotseat an MP game with a 1 pop OCC civ and another monster civ.
Form an alliance. Be very generous.
That should work.

samson



[This message has been edited by samson (edited April 19, 2001).]

[Ribannah]

Just landed on AC in the year 1809, playing MGE!

Had bad luck with trade, and less turns to stockpile freight, so ... when Apollo was built I had a mere 8 freight and an empty purse. It took me 8 extra turns to complete the 15-2-2-1-1-1 spaceship but there was no challenge by the AI. My launch must have taken them by surprise.

================================================== ==============
AC: 1809

Monarchy: -
Republic: -2650
Democracy: -325

Gardens: -1750
Colossus: -750
Copernicus: -400
Marco Polo: -225
Newton: 160
Leonardo: 680
Apollo: 1640

Trade routes: -875, -775, -700

Size 4: -1700

Trade: -1750
Automobile: 920
Computers: 1420
Space Flight: 1630
============================================

-4000 [Alphabet, Bronze Working, Horseback Riding]
-3950 N-Archers(h), N-Horsemen(h)
-3900 N-Archers(h)
-3800 50(h)
-3750 Pottery(h), The Hayholt founded by Princess Miriamele
-3650 50(h)
-3550 Chariot(h)
-3450 N-Archers(h)
-3300 N-Archers(h)
-3250 Settlers
----- French, traded for Code of Laws, Literacy and Writing , Peace, no Ally
-3200 S2, Settlers join city -> S3
-3150 Gold mined, Aztecs, traded for Ceremonial Burial and Map Making, Peace
----- 4 techs->Az, Maps, Ally, 50
-3100 Library, N-Horsemen(h)
-2950 Masonry(h)
-2800 Grassland/r irrigated
-2650 The Republic, REPUBLIC, disbanded Chariot
----- 4 techs->F, Maps, no Ally , 2 techs->Az
-2300 Seafaring, Carthagians, Peace, 9 techs->C, Maps, Ally
-2250 French: "Monarchy"
-2200 Gold mined
-2100 Seafaring->Az, 50
-2050 Currency, 50(h), Currency->Az
-1750 HANGING GARDENS, Trade, We Love
-1700 S4, 2 techs->F, 1 tech->Az
-1650 We Love ends
-1450 Silk, Mathematics
-1350 Harbor
-1200 Disbanded N-Archers
-1150 Gold, Mysticism, 1 tech->C, no gift
----- Traded for Banking and Monarchy (F), 3 techs->Az, 50
-1100 1 tech->C, 25
-1050 1 tech->C, 25
-1000 1 tech->C, 25 , di N-Archers, French: "The Wheel"
-975 Salt, 1 tech->C, 25 , Aztecs: Philosophy -> Medicine
-950 1 tech->C, 25
-925 Marketplace
-875 Food, Construction, Silk to Orleans (110)
----- Traded for The Wheel(F), 1 tech->C, 25
-850 1 tech->C, 50 , swapped for Philosophy(Az)
-825 Food
-800 Americans, Peace, 13 techs->Am, Maps, Ally, 150
-775 Food, Gold to Orleans (116)
-750 COLOSSUS
-725 Engineering
-700 Salt to Orleans (130)
-675 Bank
-650 Romans, traded for Warrior Code, Peace, 14 techs->R, Maps, no Ally
-625 Food
-600 Barb Archers
-575 Invention, traded for Medicine(Az), 1 tech->Az, 150
-550 Food
-500 Food, 1 tech->C,Am, 50,25
----- Traded for Astronomy(F), 1 tech->F, Ally, 200 , 1 tech->Az
-450 Food, 3 techs->R, 4 techs->Am, Maps, 25 , 5 techs->C, Maps, 1 tech->Az, 50
-400 COPERNICUS' OBSERVATORY
-350 Food, Barb Leader (150)
-325 Democracy, DEMOCRACY, 1,3,1,1 techs->R,F,Am,C, 50<-C
----- 115->Az to keep alliance, 1 tech->Az, 200
-300 Food
-250 Food
-225 MARCO POLO'S EMBASSY, University, swapped for Navigation(Az)
----- Indians, Peace, 21 techs->I, Maps, Ally, 100 , 2 techs->R, Maps
----- 2 techs->F,Am, 100,50 , 2 techs->C
-175 University
..... Romans: PYRAMIDS
-125 Iron Working, 1 tech->R,Am,I, 1 tech->F,C, 75,50 , 100->Az, 1 tech->Az, 200
-100 Barb Leader (150)
-50 Barb Archers
-25 Food, Bridge Building, city square into Forest/r -> 10 shields
----- 1 tech->F, 150 (instead of Economics!)
..... Peace (R<->Am)
20 Food, N-Legion(h), 1 tech->R, Ally(R), Maps, 150
40 Barb Chariot, Leader disappears
60 Food, Theory of Gravity
100 Silver
140 Food, Physics, Barb Chariot, traded for Economics(F), 1 tech->F, 100
----- 3 techs->R, 4 techs->Az,C,I, Maps, 150,50,150
160 ISAAC NEWTON'S COLLEGE
200 Food, Steam Engine
240 Food
260 Railroad
280 Temple
300 2 techs->Az,C, 100,100 , 2 techs->F
320 Stock Exchange, Industrialization, Silver to Teotihuacan (d,128), 50(h)
380 The Corporation, 2 techs->Az, 4,2 techs->R,F, Maps, 100,75
400 Factory
440 Gunpowder, 9 techs->Am, Maps, 150
..... Aztecs: Communism
460 Oil
480 Traded for Communism(Az), Aztecs end alliance
500 Food, Metallurgy
540 Food
560 Magnetism, Barb Knights, traded for Chemistry(F), 3 techs->F, Maps
----- 4,9,7 techs->Am,I,C, Maps, 50,50,100 , 5 techs->R, Maps
580 Food, Barb Knights, Barb Leader (150), Oil to Teotihuacan (82)
620 Food, Electricity
660 4 techs->Az, Maps, Ally, 150
680 LEONARDO'S WORKSHOP, Explosives, 2 techs->Am, 50 , Barb Knights
720 Silk
740 Steel
760 Food
780 3 techs->R,F, Maps, 100,100
800 Refining
820 Food
840 4,4,3 techs->C,I,Az, Maps, 100,50,150 , 1 tech->R,F, 1 tech->Am, 50
860 Power Plant, Combustion
880 Silk to Tlatelolco (d,298)
900 Oil
..... Aztecs: Sanitation, building Darwin's Voyage
920 Automobile
940 Superhighways, 2 techs->R, 50
960 Electronics, traded for Sanitation (Az), 2 techs->Az, 150
----- 2 techs->R, 4 techs->F,I, Maps, 4 techs->C, Maps, 100 , sold Power Plant
1020 Food, Mass Production, city square into Grassland/r, Aztecs end alliance , Oil to Teotihuacan (140)
1040 Barb Musketeers
1060 Cloth, Feudalism, Barb Leader (150)
1080 Traded for Conscription(F), 1 tech->F, 250 ->Az, 3 techs->Az, Ally(Az), Maps, no gift
..... Aztecs: DARWIN'S VOYAGE, Atomoc Theory, Nuclear Fission
1100 Food
1120 Chivalry
1140 Food, 7 techs->Am, Maps, 50 , Barb Musketeers
1160 1 tech->F, 250 , 4 techs->R,C,I, Maps, 150,100,50
1180 Food, Leadership, Cloth to Teotihuacan (144), 1 tech->F
1200 .... French: Flight
1220 Food
1240 Tactics
1260 Food
1300 Food, Machine Tools, 3 techs->R,C, 50,50 , 3 techs->I
1340 Food
1360 Miniaturization, 4 techs->Am, Maps, 50 , 1 tech->R, 50 , 1 tech->C,I
1380 Offshore Platform
1420 Cloth, Computers, traded for Flight(F), 2 techs->F, 100
1440 Research Lab, traded for Nuclear Fission (Az), 6 techs->Az, Maps
----- 2 techs->R,Am, 3 techs->C,I, Maps, 100,50 , 1 tech->F, 50
..... 4 Aztec cities and Carthage demand Uranium!!
1460 Aztecs end alliance
1480 Food, Radio
1500 Cloth to Orleans (86), 1 tech->all, Ally(Az)
1510 Gold
1520 Advanced Flight
1530 Food
1540 Barb Musketeers
1550 Food, Mobile Warfare, Gold to Orleans (d,258)
1560 Traded for Genetic Engineering(R), 1 tech->R, 200 , 3 techs->F, Maps
----- 4,3,3 techs->Am,C,I, Maps, 50,50,50 , Barb Cannon
1570 Cloth, Robotics
1590 Manufacturing Plant -> 32 shields, 1 tech->F,I, 100,50 , 1 tech->R,Am,C
..... French: WOMEN'S SUFFRAGE
1600 Rocketry, Cloth to Orleans (86)
1610 Gold, Barb Musketeers
1620 Traded for Atomic Theory (Az), 1 tech->Az, 150
----- 2 techs->R,F,Am,C,I, 50,75,50,100,50
1630 Space Flight, 1 tech->Az, 150
1640 APOLLO PROGRAM - we have 8 freight and little money
----- 1 tech->Az, 150 , Barb Riflemen
1650 S#01, 1 tech->Az,R, 300,50 , Barb Riflemen
1660 S#02, Nuclear Power, Engineers complete road to Orleans,
----- Barb Leader (150), Barb Cannon, Gold to Tlatelolco (119)
1670 S#03, Barb Riflemen, used 1 freight
1680 S#04, 1 tech->R, 50
1690 S#05, The Laser, used 1 freight, Barb Riflemen
1700 S#06, 1 tech->Am, 50 , traded for Combined Arms(F), 1 tech->F
1720 1 tech->R, 50 , 4 techs->C,I, 100,50
1730 Plastics
1750 C#01 1 tech->R,C,I,Am,F, 50,50,50,50,125
1752 S#07, Superconductor, traded for Guerilla Warfare(Az), 1 tech->Az, 150
1754 S#08, used 1 freight, 1 tech->Az, 150
..... Aztecs: Fusion Power
1756 S#09, swapped for Fusion Power(Az)
1758 S#10, 1 tech->R,F, 50,125
1760 S#11, Espionage, sold Research Lab, 1 tech->F, 100
1762 S#12, sold University, 1 tech->Az, 300
1764 S#13, sold Library, di N-Horsemen, used 1 freight
1766 C#02, di N-Horsemen, used 1 freight
1768 C#03
1770 S#14, 1 tech->R,F, 50,250
1772 S#15, di N-Musketeers, used 1 freight, 1 tech->Am, 100
1774 C#04, 1 tech->C,I, 100,50
1776 1 tech->C,I, 100,50
1782 Barb Musketeers
1784 M#01, sold Manufacturing Plant, sold 1 freight, 1 tech->Am,R,I,C, 50,100,150,50
1786 M#02, 1 tech->C,I, 50,50 , sold Superhighways, we have left: N-Engineers and 12 gold
1788 M#03, LAUNCH 15-2-2-1-1-1
1790 Barracks
1792 City Walls
1794 Superhighways
1796 Library
1798 Manufacturing Plant ..... French start spaceship, Aztecs: SETI PROGRAM
1799 Spy ..... Aztecs start spaceship
1801 ..... Aztecs: MAGELLAN'S EXPEDITION
1803 ..... Americans start spaceship
1804 ..... Carthagians start spaceship
1805 ..... French, Romans start spaceship, Aztecs: SHAKESPEARE'S THEATRE
1806 LIGHTHOUSE
1808 ADAM SMITH'S TRADING CO.
1809 ALPHA CENTAURI

Score: 315 (40%)

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If you have no feet, don't walk on fire
[This message has been edited by Ribannah (edited April 19, 2001).]

[samson]

Ribannah,

Nice game. Welcome to the "4" club.

I can see from your log that I play too conservatively.
I like the way you built your spaceship from scraps and handouts.
I think, with a little practice and a bit of luck, someone's gonna plop down
a Size4 landing in the 1600's.

What did you have for resource squares?
What date could you hit on that map with a full city approach?

samson

[Ribannah]

It was the same map as you played on (Smash's OCC comparison game) with 2 gold/2 whales. In regular OCC I landed in 1586, so obviously size 4 is not optimal

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If you have no feet, don't walk on fire