The quantum leap from Prince to King

[Ming]

Early Republic and Hanging Gardens is a killer combo.
With the automatic one happy pop in your cities, it makes WLYD's a beautiful thing to behold
Add in a temple and myst, and you will be flying!

[DaveV]

Personally, I've always found monarchy a better sleazing government than republic. Big disadvantages of republic: shield support for all units, and hungrier settlers. Republic's ability to use luxuries to turn the black heads happy is a big plus, but you need an outrageous luxury rate to pacify the outlying cities where corruption is high. A republican city with temple and marketplace costs as many shields as four unimproved cities under monarchy. I think the main advantage of ICS is speed; republic negates some of that advantage.

[SCG]

quote: <font size=1>Originally posted by DaveV on 10-20-2000 10:42 AM</font> Personally, I've always found monarchy a better sleazing government than republic. Big disadvantages of republic: shield support for all units, and hungrier settlers. Republic's ability to use luxuries to turn the black heads happy is a big plus, but you need an outrageous luxury rate to pacify the outlying cities where corruption is high. A republican city with temple and marketplace costs as many shields as four unimproved cities under monarchy. I think the main advantage of ICS is speed; republic negates some of that advantage.

A lot of it is a matter of playing style. I tend to fight wars by getting the other side to fight for me - always have if i had a choice, even in games like AD&D and Bards Tale. So most of my military after I make republic is made up of units from revolting cities. The inner cities often have diplomats as their only defence, with the occasional strong 2-movement and strong defensive units scattered throughout. Reguarding corruption, republic has lower corruption than Monarchy, and with the greater science output, Democracy isn't that far off.

With reguards to the temple and marketplace costing 4 cities, it costs less than that because they are structures vs units, at least when you rush-buy. Secondly, once size 3, they can spew out settlers faster since they effectively don't shrink in size. Before I have republic, I will kick out settlers from size 2 cities. Again, its a matter of choice/playstyle. I would rather be able to kick out a settler every turn after waiting for it to initially get to size 3 (and celebrate to 4) rather than waiting for it to grow back to size 2 each time.

Edit: as you can guess, I've never played MP (only have 2.42) Naturally, I would try to concentrate a little more on city defence with more to worry about. But then again, what plan ever survives intact in the face of a competent foe
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Sleep is a luxury and I don't have Shakespeare's Theatre in my back yard.

[This message has been edited by SCG (edited October 20, 2000).]

[Blaupanzer]

A) If your fixed on walls, build the Great Wall. By the time it expires, you won't need it if your expanding.

B) Don't give the AI anything if you can take him. Use an embassy to determine this. If not, be real nice.

C) If you build the GL, then going Republic is solely dependent on having one or another of the happy wonders MC, BC, or HG.

D) I recommend you follow Fergus' suggestion and go straight to emporer. The new habits are easier to learn in that rather less forgiving environment.

Question: What does everyone regard as winning? Do you only count it if you either make AC or conquer everyone? Or do you count it if your civ score for this one was higher than the last one?

[Adam Smith]

A couple things I havent seen mentioned yet on a quick scan through:

1. You need very little in the way of improvements. A temple plus Mike will get you to size eight, which is plenty big enough. Add factories (plus Hoover) later for the production boost. Build city walls in hot spots if you really need them. Otherwise, dont bother.

2. It is cheaper to buy imporvements than to buy units. Hence you can build units (caravans) to finance the purchase of needed improvements.

3. The best defense is a good offense. Make sure you have a diplomat or top-of-the-line attack piece within one turn of every city. You will need a good road network to do this, but you dont want roads on the outside edge of frontier cities. Mobile defense is far better than city walls. Eg, your elephants attacking their elephants, rather than their elephants attacking your phalanxes. Or, even better, diplomats turning their elephants into your elephants. An elephant and a diplomat can usually defend three or four cities better and cheaper than one city wall.
[This message has been edited by Adam Smith (edited October 20, 2000).]

[Bohlen]

quote: Originally posted by Blaupanzer on 10-20-2000 01:02 PM Question: What does everyone regard as winning? Do you only count it if you either make AC or conquer everyone? Or do you count it if your civ score for this one was higher than the last one?

You can only win the game if you reach AC or conquer the world, or at least that is what the playing manual says. Score is a nice stat, but the end result of AC or world domination is what to shoot for. Score means nothing really. Some of my best games have been low scoring and some of my worst games have been high scoring. Go figure!

[kcbob]

If I don't conquer the world or beat the AI to AC, I might as well go kiss my sister.

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Frodo lives!

Better dead than "Red"... or green... or blue... or yellow... or orange... or purple... or white.

[Bohlen]

The ole sister kiss. I believe some people call that a tie. There are no ties in civ, only in hockey!

[SCG]

quote: Originally posted by Bohlen on 10-20-2000 04:53 PM The ole sister kiss. I believe some people call that a tie. There are no ties in civ, only in hockey!

hey! what about soccer!! now that the NHL has modified its overtime standings, there aren't nearly as many ties now

As for Civ, would you chalk it up as an AI victory if there were AIs left at 2020 and no one had reached AC?

And on a somewhat related note, I seem to remember one of the SGs (SG1?) trying a bloodlust game on a jpk cylinder world (40x250) and finding the 2020 time limit rather restrictive when he started near the south pole. Lead to him discussing whether all games were winnable... Hey SG*! how did that game eventually turn out?

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Sleep is a luxury and I don't have Shakespeare's Theatre in my back yard.

[cavebear]

SCG - Could you please explain how you get a size 4 city to kick out a settler per turn? That's forty shields (or a rush-build). Or is that the cumulative effect of a group of cities or overall gold per turn?

[SCG]

quote: Originally posted by cavebear on 10-20-2000 08:54 PM SCG - Could you please explain how you get a size 4 city to kick out a settler per turn? That's forty shields (or a rush-build). Or is that the cumulative effect of a group of cities or overall gold per turn?

Its a rush build. costs 125 gp unless you have something to disband or have something like 4 whales or rivered buffalo for you 4 workers. And again, its because it celebrates from 3 to 4 after you builds the settler that it can keep doing so. Having a few caravans to deliver helps, as does raising taxes (i tend to keep the science rate pretty low to curtail AI research). With taxes at 50-60% and more than a few cities (a size 4 republic city with a trade route or 2 and a marketplace usually can bring in 10+ gold), you can bring in quite a staggering amount of gold per turn.

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Sleep is a luxury and I don't have Shakespeare's Theatre in my back yard.

[Blaupanzer]

Okay, then what's the point of the scoring system. People write in to say how to run it up using high luxeries and selling lightbulb improvements. Seems the only standard is type of win and how soon. Is that right? "Kissing your sister," indeed!

[Bohlen]

quote: Originally posted by SCG on 10-20-2000 07:55 PM hey! what about soccer!! now that the NHL has modified its overtime standings, there aren't nearly as many ties. As for Civ, would you chalk it up as an AI victory if there were AIs left at 2020 and no one had reached AC?

Oh, yes. Soccer too! Didn't mean to forget that great sport. There are more ties in pro soccer now for sure.

Yes, I would say that the AI had secured a victory with that end result. IMHO, the AI "wins" if the human player does not meet one of the two game winning objectives.

[kcbob]

quote: Originally posted by Bohlen on 10-24-2000 10:31 AM Yes, I would say that the AI had secured a victory with that end result. IMHO, the AI "wins" if the human player does not meet one of the two game winning objectives.

Since it's 6 AIs to one of me, the best I'll give it is a "tie" if it doesn't beat me. Unfortunately, it beats me more often than it ties me.

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Frodo lives!

Better dead than "Red"... or green... or blue... or yellow... or orange... or purple... or white.

[The Capo]

I know everyone is going to say what the hell are you talking about to me. But I have played plenty of multiplayer games (though I am very much a rookie) and there is *NO* such thing as too much defense (well there is, but not generally).

MP games are the worst for city defense, I have not found out why yet, but some of the "bigger" guys in this community do not defend their cities properly, they just leave them open without consequence, if you build a few horsies on a small map, you can usually find yourself a nice lil' city already made for you.

But since you are talkin AI here, they will have their cities defended, and in some cases quite well. Therefore your military should be split into attackers and defenders. The defenders are your Archers and Legions in early times, despite what people say, cheap units result in a cheap army, so don't build em cheap in later years. If you have Legions running around your homeland, and Cats and Elephants waiting in your cities for boats to send them off, that usually counterbalances your rioting problems.

At least early on and in time of peace, in time of war it is usually desireable to have your cities well defended, so it also kinda balances this out, but temples and crap are needed without a doubt.

I suck, but I usually go to Republic ASAP, at first its hard, but when you are shooting your enemies Knights, the rewards start comming in, if ya know what I mean.