Paitkis22... Help, please

[Dr_Strangelove]

Completely non-civ related... I need to know any trivia about Greece that doesn't get out of Greece. Privatised industries, social problems, what the people want and need. I would very much appreciate it if you could post any random trivia that may help the ruling of Greece (I have her in DotW). Any other interesting trivia is welcome too.

[Bereta_Eder]

Well, I don't really understand what you mean by «ruling on Greece or Dtws» but some of the subjects that swirl inside the mind of the middle greek citizen (both corporate and social matters) are:

Privatization:

next in line is the national telecommunications company O.T.E. (which is already partially privitised) and the National Power Company D.E.I. Greece has to abide by the laws of the european commission by de-regulating these markets (as well as others). The workers feel threatened of loosing their jobs or some of their privileged - financial and otherwise like hours of work per week etc. (and that is understandable). The working unions of OTE (which is the first in line) have put up a tough fight but the government is persisting. This opposition of course happens only when there is a announce of new reform measures etc.

Public services: one of the subject most greeks feel very angry with is the deplorable quality of service in the public sector. By this I mean the many hours that they have to spend in order to get for example a licence for a new company, proccessing some requests (like a certificate etc).

Also they are angered by the lack of transparency in the spending of public money and the lack of «fairness». By this I mean that often the one most qualified for a certain job doesn't get it if he doesn't know someone who knows someone who knows someone who is the uncle of someone who works there.

Another very touchy subject is the ties between political power and major corporations espesially now that the prospects for «greek domination» (financially for God's shake) in the Balkans is better than ever.

A huge anger was formed around the recent naval tragedy. The sinking of the boat caused 78 or so deaths and most people blame the government for allowing the creation of virtual ship company monopolies in the Aegean.

Social: the huge tidal wave of immigration from eastern Europe, especially Albania, is bringing down the levels of torelance (which in my humble opinion is very big because the greeks themselves migrated heavily in the USA and Australia). Actually I don't think it is lowering these levels. I think that Greece and especially Athens is waking up to the reality that it is now a multicultural society. Up to the '90s the greek population is 98% homogenious. (I hate to use these words but yes ethnically homogenious whatever the hell that means).


The most recent development was this: a 14 year old albanian boy became the best student in a greek school near Thessaloniki (the second largest city). As it is the custom in our two national holidays (where there is a parade as usual) the best student of each scholl raises the greek flag in the parade representing his/hers school mates who follow.

Greek society became divided as to if the boy considered himeself a greek. The president, the minister of education and the prime minister said that the albanian boy has the right to raise the flag and that this is an honor for the educational system of Greece. The majority of the population (I think) agreed with the government. Some people claimed that only those who are greeks can raise the greek flag and that the flag is not a prize to be won but a national symbol to be respected and carried by those who «feel» that they are greeks.

In responce the governemnt and the vast (I think)majority quoted an ancient philosopher who said that «greeks are those that possess greek education»(actually there is no definite translation for the greek word «paidia» it's not just education is also a way of thinking acting and evaluating life).

The albanian boy (appropriatly named «Ulysses» - those who know the tale will understand ) said at first that he wanted to raise the greek flag. But after all this controversy errupted he declined saying he didn't want to cause problems in the greek society. (Personal opinion: that is a heck of a mature boy - we should be proud if all greek citiziens were like him)

Church: a lot of controversy with the will of the new archbishop Christodoulos in getting involved in more political issues.
Two opinions of the people exist:
1) the church is losing its spiritual character by trying to get into politics. This is not its role. Its role is to guide those who need it in a spiritual manner.
2) the church is NOT getting into politics it just tries to «lift the good aspects» of being a greek vs the sneak attacks of others (personal opinion: who the hell are those mysterious others ffs????) who try to undermine the national identity and customs of the greek people.

Relations with neigbhoors and feelings of greek people

Turkey:

the extreme majority wants peaceful relationship but are waiting for concrete signs of friendship from the other side. The grunge is not so with the turkish people as with the military - controlled governement of Turkey.

Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia:

a lot of greeks have almost forgotten about the issue with the name Macedonia. This state seem to have faded in obscurity and is completly depended on greek economy and investments and financial aid from Greece (as is Albania). Still the vast majority of greeks still shiver with the notion that another country could use a greek name (actually one of the most prominent names of greek history) and the expansionist ideas that this might entail (Northen Greece's name is Macedonia).

Albania: a lot of anger to the «irregularities» in the recent elections. Men with guns in the voting rooms etc etc. I really would not like to cooment further this country really should get more democratic and FAST. (personal opinion).

Yugoslavia: always considered a «brother nation» a lot of greek anger with the Nato bombing (incidents of stoping Nato troops from entering Yugoslavia through Greece (Via FYROM). Still people very happy to see democracy starting to gain control of Serbia. Very few protests about albanian suffering in Kosovo.

Other international relations

European Union: always fanatically in support of further unification. Still questions about the lose of «national sovereignity». Frequent references to the «buerocrats of Brussels».

I hope you are coverted

(P.S. you asked a journalist (me) this question so there you have it )

[Bereta_Eder]

OH.

USA: greek people's feelings.
Friendly with american people.

Feelings about USA governemnt (as expressed eloquantly from a person I know and I think it encapsules the opinion of the majority of greeks):
they are the masters of the godamn planet for the modern era! but they better watch it and not get too cocky about it because things change. (attempt to boost EU?? I don't know

Anger about usa sponsored dictatorship in Greece in the 70's are lowering.

The image of USA governement has been struck again due to the developments in the Balkans.

Discontempt at USA sponsored (as it is perceived by the greek people) bombing in Serbia. References to Clinton as the butcher of the Balkans. References to the European Union as powerless and as slaves of the americans. Anger has been very much lowered now.

Clinton is seen as a sexy playboy and one VERY competent politician looking always for the best interest of his country. His «errotic» adventures have gained the unanimous praise of the greek people (as with most europeans).
Refered to as a person who lives his life.

US economic power is both admired as well as critised.

USA social system (health care, working conditions etc etc) is perceived as unjust and brutal towards human discency by some.

Others feel that the us way of doing things is HUGELY efficient and that instead of snobbing Greece should try to learn from it.

USA society is also refered to as «just». The people there have the possibilities to progress and prosper if they are worth it. A lot of references to the greek americans that have prospered and contributed to US life as an example of USA system being fair and lets you explore your possibilities.

Personal opinion about american tourists in Greece and about americans I have met in my travels in Europe:
tourists are just great Most of them are old couples that apparently came to Greece as a nice old age holiday. They are polite, they don't ignore their appearance despite being old (nice clothes etc) and they are really eager to know everything there is about Greece.

Americans I have met in my travels: they are people like you and me (doh!)

[Bereta_Eder]

And last but not least.

Opinions of greeks about themselves.

Greeks do not call themselves greeks but hellenians.
According to myth the first greeks were two!
The grekos (from which comes greek) and the hellenos.

Greeks are hugely proud of their ancient ancestry (cradle of civilization etc etc).
Sometimes this can seem like an addiction.

Almost half of the public discussions about edgy and unclear subjects have a reference about what happened in ancient Greece!!! Whenever there is talk about democracy and state issues Ancient Athens is brought up.
When there is tension (this happened some years ago always with Turkey) Alexander the Great was brought up for... encouragement (It's maybe silly but true
You must understand that relations between Greece and Turkey was like USA - Soviet Union during the cold war!

Greeks think that the world and especially Europe is forever in their debt for discovering democracy, theater, civilization well almost everything...!! (Hey you can laugh but you asked me about things that never get out of Greece

One thing you have to know about Greece (and this is very much kept between greeks) is the famous:

Greek (or Hellenic) Daemonium.

It's very hard to explain but there is a folk legend that says that all greeks have this. It's supposed to be a gift. Daemonium (which after the coming of Christianity means demons) means actually a spirit but then again means the ability to succeed under very tough circumstances using imaginative and rare means that maybe have not ever been used before.

Every greek knows about the greek daemonium.

Greeks believe that they are extremely canning (is this the word? like intelligent) and that they can fool anybody if they want to.

Greeks also beleive (and they say this with a large degree of biterness) that Greece eats its own children.

This goes to the state that they feel is not as organised and efficient as it should be and to the lack of «fairness» and not giving bright people the chance to get the jobs they deserve thus pushing them outside Greece (mostly USA or Britain) where they afterwards excel but not for Greece.

Greeks hate one characteristic that they think is the worst curse of the greek people. This is a difficulty to work together as a team.

There are a lot of popular sayings that go something like «A greek by himself/herself is greatness impersonated, two greeks together results in massacre».

There is virtually disagreement in everything and everybody has his/her own opinion about anything and most of the time she/he thinks they are absolutely right. Political involvment in Greece is EXTREMELY high.

Greeks feel isolated in the edge of southeastern Europe but at the same time open to the whole wide world. They felt threatened by instability in the surrounding countries. (Thus the will for accelerated european unification). This was true for the previous years mostly after the collapse of the Soviet Union and the problems that arose. These days the feeling of security that Greece can provide for its own is high combined with an accelerated pace of economic growth.

Well this is all I can think of for now

[This message has been edited by paiktis22 (edited November 08, 2000).]

[Dr_Strangelove]

Paiktis, this is great... What about the political parties and the relationship between them. What is the political system like?

And, are there any greek newspapers edited in English and on-line?

[kcbob]

quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 on 11-07-2000 08:17 PM Greeks do not call themselves greeks but hellenians.

Now that is fascinating.

------------------
Frodo lives!

[Bereta_Eder]

I am posting this but then I have to get back to work ok?

Political Parties in Greece:

Two are the main political parties with few others that are very minor.

1) P.A.S.O.K. (Panhellenic Socialist Movement - currently in power)
Approximative power (I don't remember exactly - 46% or so)

2) N.D. (New Democracy)
Main opposition to PASOK - approx power 45% or so)

Minor parties in order of the number of seats in the greek parliement

3) K.K.E (Communist Party of Greece)
Ap. power 5% or so

4) SYN (Coalition)
This is a party that gathers minor left parties together.
Ap. power 3% or so.

5) Some ecologists (I think) as well as very few independent senators (they once belonged in one of the above mentioned parties but now they are on their own)

(I don't remember exactly the % of each party there may be a margin of error of 2% for each)

Today's character of parties

PASOK: (the leftist? party of Greece) is pro - free and competitive markets but with a large degree of social welfare (opinions differ here) and some degree of state intervention to economy. Pasok is in favor of globalization and of a quick pace in european intergration.
Pasok is in power for the past 20 years except for a period of 3 years in the beggining of the '90 when New Democracy was in power.
The roots of PASOK were definitely socialist. Some critisize today's PASOK saying it has become too rightist in what concerns economic matters.

New Democracy: (the rightist? party of Greece) is pro -free markets as well as in favor of a quicker pace of privitization of greek state industries and a lesser level of intervantion in the economy. N.D. is pro european union.
New Democracy is in favor of globalization and the party members say that they can implement the policies of free markets better because they actually have this political orientation whereas PASOK is only «addapting» its ideology to current developments.
Opponents accuse N.D. that if they get in power they will privitise even if this means huge loss of jobs.

The boundaries of these two main parties have been blurred in recent years. Some people say that their differences are very few anymore. Others (of course) disagree and point out ideological differences for example socialism vs. conservatism and the past events of Greece and where each party stood during these events. (that are too complicated to write about here).


K.K.E. The Communist party has lost a lot of its power in the last decades and is being stabilized around 5% of the greek voters. The KKE is anti-globalization and anti free - markets, anti-american and anti- european union. It favors state controlled economics the stopping of privitization and the aliance of Greece with other states or with other european countries if themselves follow the principles of communism. Its main moto is «Fight against Imberialism»

SYN The Coalition party of left parties is very similar to Pasok actually at least that what the majority of people think. SYN members disagree. Has been losing voters to Pasok all the time. SYN is very progressive and pro european union.


Some news about Greece in english that I can remember of are: www.ana.gr (Athens News Agency - everything) and www.mpa.gr (Macedonian News Agency - News mainly about Northen Greece and the Balkans)

[Dr_Strangelove]

I love you man... well, not really, but thanks a million..

About this DotW, It's a geopolitical forum. You pick a country and lead it to glory and power. I am Greece at the moment and I was looking for all this kind of little trivia. If you can think of anything else, I'm taking these home to read tonight.

[Dr_Strangelove]

quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 on 11-08-2000 04:05 PM I am posting this but then I have to get back to work ok?

I thought this WAS working... informing people...

paiktis, I'm also sorry for mispelling you name... but before you hop off to work, one last thing: How is Greece dealing with issues like drugs, alcohol, prostitution...

[Bereta_Eder]

Oh, so this is my job huh strangelove??? So where is my check huh? where is my money??

Be glad I don't find this tiresome


Alcohol

There was never a problem of alcoholism in Greece. And this is funny because according to a EU survey the greeks drink more whiskey that any other european people (by percentage that is)

Prostitution:
Ah, the most ancient of all professions
In Greece there are «Houses of Tolerance» (as they are called here). This is a nice way to say bordello or whore house.

There was never any problem with this with greek society but there are accusations of corruption of some of the policemen in what regards prostitution (extortion - «protection»).
The prostitutes are required to have a medical check at regular intervals (or their license to, em, «love» is taken away from them) and they have health care.

After the collapse of Soviet Union there is a flow of young eastern european women (from Russia, Bulgaria, Ukraine etc) which are very much uncared for by the state. There are a lot of accusations about corrupted policemen who extort money to provide «protection» particularly about the eastern european women (which are most of the time illegal aliens in Greece and most of them are exploited).

There was a funny incident once. There is a street in Athens called Fylis. The number of the houses of tolerance there is extremely high. (There is a very old greek law that limits the number of such houses per municipality).

I don't know why but nearly half of these houses in Athens are at the Fylis street.
The people who live in Fylis Street revolted some years ago demanding the withdrawal of the Houses of Tolerance. There were some husbands that declared angrily that the state must close these houses or disperse them to other areas of Athens. And while you are watching this on tv you think "hmm little fellow you seem particularly eager and concerned about this matter. Wouldn't you have something to hide perhaps???
Very funny The state did nothing. The whole street is undervalued now.

In general greek society is tolerant about prostitution but not too tolerant. It is a subject that it's is not very much discussed.


Drugs.

Greece has one of - if not the - lowest drug abuse record in the European Union. But there are problems and they are multiplying. These problems affect mostly the big cities (as could be expected). Athens (5 million people) has the worst record of drug abuse of all other greek cities.

Police regularly bust big quantities of drugs in the northen borders of Greece. People think that there are some corrupted policemen who are involved in selling drugs. A recent study showed that the number of drug abusers is increasing.

Marijuana is illegal in Greece. The laws are strict about any substance that is considered illegal although things like soft or hard drug and quantity of drug are being taken into consideration by the courts.

People think that the laws about drug trafficers(not drug users) should be increased like 1000%!! ( a sign of concern and anger)

There are some people who are in favor of legalization but the state doesn't seem to be bothered about it.

[This message has been edited by paiktis22 (edited November 09, 2000).]
[This message has been edited by paiktis22 (edited November 09, 2000).]
[This message has been edited by paiktis22 (edited November 09, 2000).]

[Dr_Strangelove]

I am scanning a US$100... I'll mail to you this weekend...