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  • Uh, I Musta Missed Something...

    Hey, what happened over there in the "Review SMAC Now!" thread? Last I remember, I posted an off-topic "how's the weather" comment, now it's deleted, and the thread is closed, and people seem p***ed off (cuss word self-censored, thanks). Tensions running high, it seems.

    MarkG, I must admit your actions confuse me. A site has, roughly speaking, two kinds of traffic: casual browsers and regulars. What keeps a site "alive" are the regulars. Now, I still stand by my earlier statements: you're providing a free sevice that people have no real right to complain about. On the other hand, if bad feelings arise between the administrator and the regulars, the site dies. Thus the administrator needs to have at least some sensitivity to the feelings of the regulars, to keep the site alive.

    This is why the "Review SMAC Now!" thread is so baffling to me. It's of no use to the regulars, who wouldn't be here unless they were already somewhat addicted. So it seems to value the newbies over the regulars. As I said, that's an odd choice for an administrator to make.

    But the choice was made, and you stuck with it. Forums are hotbeds of mischeif, as you must know, and you can't be surprised that, in the face of an unpopular administrative position, people tried to prank it a little. You've created a place where people express their opinions, and you do something unpopular, and you expect people not to express that? That's what's confusing to me.

    There are different ways to respond to pranks: there are things you can do to escalate the tension, there are things you can do to remove the tension. Do you think that deleting posts and closing threads are removing tension from the situation? As I see it, they can only escalate the tension.

    All I'm saying, MarkG, is be aware of what you're doing. People only exist as opinons here; our written opinions are the sum total of our identities here. If you antagonize that, you have to expect there to be a reaction.

    In all honesty, I didn't expect my post to get this kind of a reaction. I mean, what, it's a sin to take a thread off-topic? I admit I was pranking the annoying thread somewhat, but very mildly, and again: since when are forum pranks a cardinal sin? It obviously offended you deeply, I guess, and I apologize. Ultimately, as I said, I'm glad this forum is here and I'm sorry if I p***ed you off. But your actions in response, again, confuse me.

  • #2
    this is an on-topic forum, and especially that thread was not intended for pranks

    this thread is also unsuited for this forum and it will be moved to the Apolyton forum

    Comment


    • #3
      <center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
      <img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
      </font><font size=1>Originally posted by Helium Pond on 09-17-2000 06:02 PM</font>
      What keeps a site "alive" are the regulars.
      <img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>a site such as this is kept alive by the continuance of a good service
      <center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
      <img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
      </font>On the other hand, if bad feelings arise between the administrator and the regulars, the site dies.
      <img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>the issue is not feelings of a few people, but the actual quality of the service
      <center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
      <img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
      </font>It's of no use to the regulars,
      <img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>it was actually intended to the regulars! it was a call to them, to help in a part of our service
      <center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
      <img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
      </font>So it seems to value the newbies over the regulars. As I said, that's an odd choice for an administrator to make.
      <img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>it's even more odd to see regulars care more about the fact that the a thread is set on the top of forum
      <center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
      <img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
      </font>You've created a place where people express their opinions, and you do something unpopular, and you expect people not to express that?
      <img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>in a on-topic forum, i expect arguments, not pranks
      <center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
      <img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
      </font>Do you think that deleting posts and closing threads are removing tension from the situation? As I see it, they can only escalate the tension.
      <img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>the "funny" posts were deleted to concetrate on the actual discussion. when i saw yet another "funny" post after that, i decided i had better things to do than delete such posts and closed the thread
      <center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
      <img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
      </font>you have to expect there to be a reaction.
      <img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>i dont have a problem with reactions, if they accompanied by arguments
      <center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
      <img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
      </font>Ultimately, as I said, I'm glad this forum is here and I'm sorry if I p***ed you off. But your actions in response, again, confuse me.
      <img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>and i'm confused that despite the thanks for our service, i continued to see whining and fun posts on that thread
      i would be gratefull if i never read any "i'm glad this forum exists" and seeing you let the thread be...
      <font size=1 face=Arial color=444444>[This message has been edited by MarkG (edited September 18, 2000).]</font>

      Comment


      • #4
        MarkG:

        I'm not going to argue about the "Review SMAC" thread. People have made their arguments about the thread, and you've made your counter-arguments, and it seems clear that you aren't going to change your mind. So there's little point in further argument. And the whole thing has become overheated, in which case reasoned debate is futile.

        I regret antagonizing you. I truly didn't think you'd take such offense at an irreverent post: I guess it must have been just one step too far. I apologize.

        I seem to be further aggravating you by saying that I'm grateful for the site's existence. Does this seem insincere, or cloying? When I say this, it is because I strive to look at all points of view in a disagreement. When I am critical, I try to also allow room in which to admit the other person's good points. I try to avoid all-or-nothing arguments, in which only one person can be right; I think the only way people can come to an understanding is to leave room for the other person to also be right.

        I felt shocked and angry when I saw what you did with my posts. I didn't understand, I felt personally attacked. I wanted to write a post saying "bye everybody at Apolyton, I don't think I'll come around anymore, because I guess MarkG hates me." In my mind I picture your reaction being: fine, get out of here, who needs you? And that makes me step back, and I feel shocked by the situation. How did it come to this? I think of myself as a reasonable person, and now I seem to be getting a reputation as a troublemaker! This isn't what I want. There are some who savor the role of irritant, not me. As I said, I'd like to have the reputation of someone who tries to see all sides of an issue, and someone who behaves with good intentions in any situation.

        I'll admit, posting off-topic in the review thread might not be seen as behaving with good intentions. But in actuality, it was. I thought it would be harmless for us to make the thread useful to us, to have fun with it: that way maybe we wouldn't resent its presence so much. If we could find a way to enjoy having it there, we wouldn't mind it being there. It wouldn't hurt anything, we'd be having fun, so we'd be happy; and the thread would still be there, so you'd be happy; everyone would be happy. I knew it might annoy you a bit, but I thought ultimately you'd prefer to see people posting in fun than to see them posting complaints.

        Obviously, things didn't work out that way. I've created bad feeling between us, which is the last thing I wanted to do. I apologize.

        I don't want to be seen as a troublemaker by you, and it bothers me to think that now everytime you see my name on a post you'll feel a twinge of aggravation. I hope you can understand that I was acting with good intentions. I sincerely regret winding up in this situation. I apologize again, and I hope we have occasion to have friendlier communications in the future.

        --HP

        Comment


        • #5
          HP, you don't need to take on all the angst about this (although you can definitely take on quite a bit of it ). I think it might have been my post which closed the debate, although I thought it was pretty on-topic frankly.

          MarkG, I hear everything you are saying and I can understand how you've backed yourself into a corner on this. But two months is enough. I have worked in marketing with considerable success, so you might care to take note of my comments (or not, but either way I won't bill you ) since the human tendencies of which I speak are well-proven in practical situations, multiple campaigns (press, DM, radio, TV etc) and over considerable periods of time. Maintaining one post with an unchanging message at the top of the board over a long period of time will *not* generate the responses you are seeking. Pretty much anyone who was going to review the game will have done so by now. You are now into the period of diminishing returns, and this is something to consider if your ad is actually alienating your main market. If you are serious about generating interest and response, you will have to do what marketing professionals do, which is to repeat your message at regular intervals in interesting ways. Or you can do what less capable marketing people do (if you're pushed for time, which I could understand ) and simply repeat the message but *at intervals*. No-one would care if you posted a reminder once a week, for goodness sake. What you are actually doing is sabotaging your own forum with a message that was innocuous when posted originally, but now has the feeling of bullying. And now that people are starting to complain, you are becoming more entrenched in your position. This is not how it's done.

          Keeping one post at the top of a board for nearly two months is simply not reasonable. It's incredibly irritating, for one thing. And for another, people have in-built filters which mean that after about a week, everyone automatically starts reading from the second post. Your post doesn't even impact most readers, the ones who are complaining are those who have trouble making the visual adjustment.

          This is a bit of a shame for the regulars here. But what really baffles me is understanding what your objective is. If it really is to generate reviews for SMAC, then I fail to see why you cannot accomplish this in other, less destructive, ways. Try posting a jolly reminder once a week - you might be surprised.

          On the other hand - and this is just a professional comment - you might get a better reaction if your post were actually accurate. We are not talking 4 games here. We are talking two, SMAC and SMAX. The Mac version is certainly not a new game, and nor is the Planetary Pack. So your attempt to suggest that the number of reviews "per game" is lower than for CIV is probably working against you, assuming you're looking for intelligent comment in the submitted reviews.

          Finally ... if your price is a particular number of reviews, why not just state it? You never know, there might be sufficient people willing to write a review simply in order to be rid of that stupid thread ...

          And yes, if I were a really *great* marketing person I would have crawled around, been more humble and proclaimed that Apolyton is my life blood. But it isn't. So take it or leave it
          Team 'Poly

          Comment


          • #6
            HP,

            i want to make absolutely clear than there is nothing personal for me when i delete/close a thread or get into a disagreement with someone on these forums. i dont have a list of troublemakers i just react to what people do on the forums in the way that i see right

            so, no apologies are needed, there is nothing to worry about


            ------------------
            Markos, Apolyton Civilization Site

            Comment


            • #7
              <center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
              <img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
              </font><font size=1>Originally posted by Misotu on 09-18-2000 08:55 PM</font>
              No-one would care if you posted a reminder once a week, for goodness sake.
              <img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>allow me to be sure that it would have even much smaller effects and that it would "iritate" some people...
              <center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
              <img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
              </font>So your attempt to suggest that the number of reviews "per game" is lower than for CIV is probably working against you
              <img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>there mac versions for civ2 and ctp are also in our listings, each with their own reviews.

              <font size=1 face=Arial color=444444>[This message has been edited by MarkG (edited September 19, 2000).]</font>

              Comment


              • #8
                I'm a relative newbie here, and if that makes my opinion any less relevant, then so be it. But from what I've heard there is a certain respectabliity associated with Apolyton, and rightly so.

                The work done by this website over the last couple of years has been very impressive. Although I have only been a recipient of this service for the last two-and-a-bit weeks, I have come to realise that this website is a shrine for all things Civilisation.

                You also, quite rightly, state that posting on the forums is a privilege, not a a right. But doesn't keeping a sticky thread up for two months demanding that everyone here review SMAC amount to emotional blackmail? A principal aim of this website is to attract as many hits as possible, and that, having also had experience in the marketing sector, is *not* the way to do it, however much you want reviews posted.

                In each of the forums I have visited with this thread up, the feedback has been less than favourable. Although Misotu's suggestion of a jolly reminder may be slightly less effective than your method, any regulars who did post reviews would not feel as though they had been bullied into doing so.

                Finally, I do not want to convey my opinion as an overly critical one, indeed I am extremely grateful for the services you provide. I am just asking that a less irritating method be tried next time, to prevent a reoccurence of this ridiculous disagreement.
                <font size=1 face=Arial color=444444>[This message has been edited by mark13 (edited September 21, 2000).]</font>
                We're back!
                http://www.civgaming.net/forums

                Comment


                • #9
                  <center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
                  <img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
                  </font><font size=1>Originally posted by MarkG on 09-19-2000 01:43 AM</font>.allow me to be sure that it would have even much smaller effects and that it would "iritate" some people...
                  <img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>

                  The effect it would have would probably be better. If I did it (and I knew my target audience, which you presumably do and I actually don't at all, so I wouldn't try it frankly) then I would expect to get improved results, because that would be the objective. HOWEVER - regarding irritation, your remarks are probably true. You know how people are

                  But really, two months is long enough. You accept that it's irritating people. It isn't going to produce the results you want, so the campaign is no longer useful. Can't you just get rid of it now? I read the reviews. Some of them are quite good - but they're all just basically saying the same thing. It's just that some are more entertaining than others. If I were wondering whether to buy the game I would a) check an independent site, not a SMAC fan site and b) would not have the patience to read so many totally similar reviews. There is really no point to all this, other than some confrontation thing which I really don't understand.
                  Team 'Poly

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Test test, my post count doesn't raise in OT here maybe?
                    Fire and ice and death awaiting. But he was steel, he was steel.

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