PBEM Tournament announcements and discussion

[Tau Ceti]

As the old thread has become rather large and possibly a bit intimidating to new arrivals, I thought it was time to start a new PBEM Tournament Announcements and Discussion thread.

New players are welcome to join the tournament at any time. If you want to join, please check out the signup thread.

Information about the tournament's organization and rules can be found in the first post of the tournament administration thread. (A bit outdated right now due to recent changes. I will have it updated soon, and if you want to know the latest changes, just read the rest of this thread.) If you have any questions not answered there or here, email me ( larsheg@sensewave.com ) or post in this thread (not in the other one - that is supposed to be read-only).

[This message has been edited by Tau Ceti (edited April 05, 2000).]

[Tau Ceti]

It has been a month since I took over this tournament, and I have some thoughts and concerns about its future that I would like to share with you. Opinions would be very welcome.

On the scoring system:
The score-stealing system suggested by Zsozso has many strong points; the greatest one probably being that it is sophisticated enough to take into account your opponents' skill level. However, there are some problems with it.

1. Using victory year as the primary factor in calculating the scores tends to encourage and reward aggressive and even back-stabbing behaviour to achieve victory as quickly as possible. This reduces the role of diplomacy in the game and helps to turn the games into bloodfests quickly. This is further aggravated by the small map and accelerated start, of course.

2. Related to 1; A player's score may come to depend heavily on whether his opponents just give up and surrender when things go bad or fight to the death. It is usually fairly evident when you have no chance of winning, but it can still take quite some time to force you into defeat. This can have a large effect on players' scores while saying nothing about their relative skill levels.

In an attempt to avoid these problems, I have come up with the following suggestion for an alternative scoring system, in cooperation with my assistant TigToad (though this suggestion is quite modified from what we originally discussed). (NOTE: this is not a finished draft; the intention is to discuss the relative merits of the systems and avoid any pitfalls.)

• All players start out on level 0.
• A victory is worth 2 points + the sum of the levels of the defeated players, and increases the winner's level by one.
• A loss is worth -1 point regardless, and does not affect the player's level.
• All scores are recomputed after every game to account for new player levels. (As per Zsozso's system)
• Player level is the primary tiebreaker if two players have the same score. Sum of victory years is the secondary tiebreaker.

This system is simpler than Zsozso's, but still makes it worthwhile to play strong players (if you can beat them!), while not primarily emphasizing speed of victory. It also (nearly) eliminates the problem of player surrenders.

The primary weak point of this system is that it tends to reward players who play many games, though only if they win, of course. But I think this is also a problem with Zsozso's and other systems. To limit this a bit, we could introduce a maximum limit on the number of games a player can play at a time, for example 6, the greatest number of games anyone is currently in.

So, what do you think? Opinions are very welcome; I am trying to make this a better tournament for all...

On play balance:
My own experience and comments in the turn administration threads indicate that the scenario as it is is, sadly, heavily unbalanced in favour of the University. They start with the ability to run Free Market from day one (provided they choose Industrial Economics as their bonus tech); Librarian difficulty level means that their drone problems are less of an issue; and because of their free Network Nodes, they are among the factions that benefit the most from having extra Colony Pods early. Usually, MMI will be within reach before 2140, looong before anyone else has a chance to get near it. And with the short distance between the islands, they can use it to full effect almost immediately. So it looks like something needs to be done before the tournament degenerates into a competition to get the most University games.

Personally, I believe at least one more map will be required reagrdless in order to keep interest up among the players. I would welcome ideas as to how the map should look like. I think it should be somewhat larger, to reduce the practicality of immediate air attacks. It should also conatin fewer Unity Pods and not have that large neutral territories. Possibly a bunch of smaller islands would do the trick.

Would it be better if all factions started with their regular starting techs instead of all level one techs? The games would be longer, but it might reduce the University's advantage. Also, perhaps players should start with not quite as many extra Colony Pods. Opinions, please...

How about short term solutions? Should we ban the University until further notice?

[korn469]

Tau Ceti,

Play Balance

yes i agree that the UoP is unbalanced...in our game if you or Pagan[CyC] had of been the belivers instead of the Spartans or the Gaians then it would have been even worse. The believers have no chance, while the UoP has a great advantage. I think that instead of all level one techs we should give the factions all of the technology that each faction in the game starts with. So in our game of Gaians, UoP, and Spartans we would have started with Centauri Ecology, Information Networks, and Doctrine: Mobility.

Also for starting units i think that each faction should also have one maybe two unity transport foils so that there is the possability of invasion but it
would be a very small chance because unity foils are so slow 0-1-2 with transport and slow special ability. they should b on opposite sides of your landmass so it would be hard to rush just one faction. This might make it easier to double rush one player off the map, but not terrably slow, and most important of all it would actually give the believers a chance. also it would keep factions "honest" so they couldn't just ICS across their main landmass and not build defenses at all.

As for the map i think that each main landmass needs to be more than 8 squares apart to prevent chop and drop techniques. But i like the general shape of Zsozso's map...so if we could keep the general shape for the main landmasses and just make them farther apart that would help alot.

As for unity pods, i think that they are the #1 unbalancing agent in the game. there shouldn't be any unity pods on your main landmass in my opinion, and there should be fewer total unity pods also.

and the UoP should probably be banned until some of these issues have been resolved.

Scoring

I also think that a player's Alpha Centauri Score should be in the forumula somewhere. In my opinion a long game with a balance of terror that keeps all factios about the same in terms of power, is way more of a rewarding experiance than a quick rush game. If you are not prepared for it a double rush will always will you. If the UoP and the Believers coperated and attacked the Spartans early on the Spartans would be dead.

So to limit rushing, i think the Alpha Centauri Score should be very important. Opponents skill, time of victory, and Alpha Centauri score should be the three most important elements of victory. So a victory in 2150 over the two best players where you have a huge AC scorewould be much better than a victory in 2149 over weak players where you have a very low score.

We need to improve play balance, improve scoring, and keep everything fun. thats what i think

korn469

[Misotu]

Hi Tau Ceti

Glad you started this thread. My main observation, having played a few turns in different games now, is that I feel the map is too small. As soon as one faction gets MMI, they can nerve gas/drop pod right into the middle of another island from almost any of their main bases. I think the fun and gameplay would be improved if it required at least a little effort and strategy to get an attack force into your opponent's HQ

I'm not suggesting huge maps, but definitely larger.

I think banning the UoP from future games until the scenario is more balanced is the right decision.

The scoring system sounds good and I agree with your analysis. I also agree with Korn's suggestion that AC score should be a factor. Hopefully we might get to the point where players can request games with other players of similar skill levels - right now, it's a bit of a lottery. Being a newbie myself, I don't present much of a challenge to anyone of experience and I'm not that thrilled at the prospect of endless nerve-gassing a few decades into the game

More maps would be excellent. Appreciate it takes time to put these together, but more variety would help. It should also produce a few different styles of game, which would be pleasant.

I don't have a problem with the unity pods, and I think the extra colony pods get the game moving and interesting from the start. I do think that the factions should have their usual starting techs - it's not right that the pirates don't have flex when the UoP still gets a bonus tech! I think factions should also start with their usual units (ie the Spartans should get at least one rover in place of a scout, while the Angels should have a probe team).

I don't think I agree that all factions should start with a couple of transports. This works against the Pirates, and makes Doc Flex pretty much redundant, since you can then build more ships right from day 1.

Anyway, thanks for all the work you've put into this Tau Ceti.

- Mis


[This message has been edited by Misotu (edited March 29, 2000).]

[korn469]

i've been thinking and here is the system i think we should use...

alpha centauri score/number of turns

that would balance out two people having the same time or two people having the same score...

if one person had a score of 750 and did that in 50 years it would not be as good as some body who had a score of 500 and did it in 25 years

i like having only one map for the tournament but however if we do have more than one map i think that people should have to play an equal number of games on the different maps...so if we had two maps then half of the games should be on one map and the other half should be on the other map...but i would like to emphasize that as a balanced tournament of skill that i feel this makes playing on the same map the most important factor of having an apples to apples instead of an apples to oranges comparision

korn469
[This message has been edited by korn469 (edited March 29, 2000).]

[Psharkjf]

Suggestions :
Yes I do agree the University is rather unbalanced in the early game. But you still have to keep the in the game somehow. Otherwise you're only playing with 6 factions. I suggest that you submit an edited univ.txt file that INCREASES the Univ's drone problems say 1 drone per 2 normal people. That way, you'll have to allocate more energy toward Psych and away from their labs and economy seetings : the two things they live on. Most people will agree that Labs energy powers the Univ, but their economy setting also is their lifeline - because that's the only way they can afford to maintain facilities like the Research Hospital or the Rec Commons that cancel out their heavy drone problems.

------------------
Let the Gaians preach their silly religion, but one way or the other, i shall see this compund burnt, seared, and sterilized, until every Mind Worm egg, every last slimy one, has been cooked to a smoking husk. That species shall be exterminated, I tell you. EXTERMINATED!
-Acadmecian Prokhor Zakharov
"Lab Three Aftermath"

[EternalSpark]

I like my brother's idea. (PShark somethin' or other)

[Garth Vader]

I think starting with so many independant units favors builders, ie those with bad support ratings.

The islands are too close, you shouldn't be able to nerve gas an enemies capitol from your own continent.

I agree the University is too strong but a big part of that is the accelerated start with 5 colony pods. If means factions with a per base energy/research bonus, like Uop and Morgan get an increased advantage over the research/energy disadvantaged like Hive, Belivers. I am not saying I would like to play without accelerated start because that would be really slow, but that should be taken into account.

Unity pods can be a big factor, although they can help overcome some disadvantages. I found 9 alien artifacts on my island which helped me overcome the Hives problems, I don't think I would have had a chance at winning without them. Imagine if I had played the UoP, 9 free techs would be incredible.

Despite my complaints I have enjoyed my game and appreciate the work everybody has done.

[Tau Ceti]

Good points, everyone! Now, to the specifics.

Scoring:
While I agree with korn that a long balnce of power-type game is more interesting and should be encouraged (this was one of the reasons why I wanted victory year to not be the decisive factor), I am not sure that basing the tournament score on AC score is the way to go. I primarily want a sytem that does not depend heavily on what you could call 'player sabotage', ie. the other players' attitude towards you should not be a factor. Using AC score as a measure means that the most rational thing to do for a player who thinks he is losing is to immediately destroy all his own bases, especially those that contain SPs, to prevent them from falling into the hands of the winner and increasing his AC score. It would also make it unthinkable that any game would end in anything other than a conquest victory (because that gives the lowest score). I do not think other players should be allowed to dictate your score to this extent.

In addition, it would most likely be easier to get a large AC score by playing against weaker players, which is exactly the opposite of the effect I want. Winning games against stronger players should be more valuable.

So I do not think AC score should be the deciding factor. We could include it as a tiebreaker, though.

Other matters:
Psharkjf: The idea was not to permanently an the University, only to make a temporary ban so that new games can still be started using the old system while the scenario and the maps are modified. While your drone suggestion is workable, I doubt it would make too much of a difference in these games as you could still have pop 3 bases with one police unit (not under Free Market though). Also, I just think we should rather strive to make a scenario that is balnced for all factions than hack the faction abilities to suit the scenario... anything else is really an admission of defeat and would also serve to confuse players when the factions do not behave like they are used to.

There seems to be a general consensus that the islands are too close, and I wholeheartedly agree. What do you think about the polar continents? They are a bit too large for my taste when they are unoccupied in the SMAC games...

Unity Pods can be unbalancing, but in my experience, most players (including me) quite like them. But on Zsozso's map, the pod density is about 4 times greater than normal, which seems a bit excessive. I think there should still be Unity Pods, but fewer in total, and probably only 3-4 on each player island.

I quite like the idea of giving all players a Unity foil. Misotu, this does not mean that you would be able to build any more ships. You cannot build Unity foils, and having one does not give you Flexibility. The low speed and transport capacity mean that they will not be a serious threat, but they will allow players to explore a bit and possibly do some pod popping if they are willing to risk their foil.

Extra Colony Pods are necessary to keep the games above a snail's pace, but the number could be discussed... the primary beneficiaries of having many Pods is, as Garth Vader said, the University and Morgan. The University's advantage would be reduced if everyone started with, say, only 3 extra Colony Pods.

Are there any more opinions on the starting tech issue? Should we have normal starting techs, all level 1 techs, korn's suggestion, or something else entirely? And would a reduction of starting techs, increase in island distance and fewer Colony Pods be enough to balance the University?

[korn469]

The main problem of this game is the map. It is impossible to mount a creadable land offensive unless you have the WP, amphibious assualts are ok but are nothing great, and unil you get doctrine:inititive they are not really a threat at all. However, by the time you get doctrine inititive, the other player could have doctrine:airpower if it is a normal faction, and could have MMI if they are the univsersity.

On this map if you are the first to get doctrine:airpower you have a major advanatge. Then once you get MMI first you pretty much have the game unless your opponents are close behind you. This is because of the close proximity of the main land masses, and the presence of the land barriers between them. The land barriers pretty much make an amphibious assualt impossible, yet they do nothing about the problem of airpower.

Also, the Univsersity should always be the tech leader in every game. The Univsersity only has two problems, probe teams and drones. Well probe teams can easily be overcome with defensive probe infantry, but unfortunantly drones are not a concern on librarian. If you wanna slow the UoP down you would have to increase the game level to either thinker or transcend. However because of the maintenance bug you might not wanna do that.

One other problem is i do not see how anyone has proposed to help boost the Believers in the game. Unity foils would help the believers alot, they would be helped by this more than any other faction. One problem is that the UoP can select industrial economics as their free tech, then switch to Free Market on like the second turn. Then after that they can bolt for Secrets of the human brain, and because they ar running free market they will discover this first, then after that they should choose planetary networks as their next free tech and then research wealth. All of this can happen by 2115, which would be before the believers discover their first tech. So you have a FM/wealth UoP, with SotHB, PlanNets, IE, and IA...against the believers who may just have discovered doc:flex...the UoP player should then beeline for Doc:Air and MMI, after that going for fusion. I am not sure what the believers could do against that.

Suggestions:

• keep the starting number of colony pods the same
• decrease the number of starting formers to either three or one...that will hurt low support economic factions
• change the number of starting units to 4 scout patrols and one scout rover...with the spartans give them two scout rovers and three scout patrols
• give each faction two unity foils, one on each side of their main landmass
• decrease starting energy reserves to 100 energy...for morgan decrease his starting energy reserves to 200...Morgan should gethis normal +100 energy bonus not +200 energy
• increase the size of the map...the most important change should be that their is nine space between each of the starting land masses...the land barrier strip should be in the middle of this, and should keep it's present features
• decrease the total number of unity pods on the map, and seriously decrease the number of unity pods on each of the players main landmasses
• do something about the polar regions, they are too large and too resource rich
• change starting techs so that each faction has the normal starting techs of the factions in that particular game...for example hive, belivers, spartans would mean that each faction in that game would have doc:mobility social psych and doc:loyalty...this would stop the UoP doom research order, and would still keep the pace of the game up...even if you changed the starting techs to every normal starting tech, it would do nothing to address the UoP research order listed above...however i do think that the UoP should keep its free tech
• if nothing else seems to work to balance the game, increase the difficulty to thinker, this will hurt FM factions and it will hurt factions running democratic, and it will hurt the UoP more than the other factions...as game difficulty increases, the UoP goes down, while the PKs, the hive, and the Spartans go up
• all factions should get their normal bounuses

korn469

[Misotu]

Sorry - missed the key point that we were talking Unity transport, rather than ordinary transport.

As a postscript, the other reason why I'd personally like a few more maps is that it would really help me to keep the games separate in my head. Right now, with the same map over and over, I'm finding that the games are starting to merge a little!

[Steve Draper]

I guess maybe I'm just a purist, but I personally HATE accelerated start - there is so much subtle strategy in the early game that just gets omitted by accelerated start that I would personally prefer to spend the extra 25 or so very short turns (and associated ellapsed time) than lose the subtlty. Is there any possibility of multiple game types being run (I guess for rating comparison it would have to be multiple tournaments)?

[Enigma]

One thing that I think you are not taking into account in all of the calculations of UoP doom techs is diplomacy. The two other players other than the UoP realize the danger of this white tech behemoth and almost always will form a pact in defense against the UoP. By swapping techs, coordinating 2 way assaults, etc cetera they can usually crush the UoP. Anyone who is foolish enough to pact with the UoP AGAINST the 3rd person will usually be rewarded with the inevitable nerve gas killing sprees. In all of the games I am in people realize this, and the UoP doesn't have a pact in any of the games I am in while I have a pact witht he 3rd person and in virtually all those games we are plotting to stop the UoP. Almost seems unfair to me.

As far as the unity pods are concerned they are definatly unbalancing especially since they have such a huge affect on the early SPs. If someone pod pops and finds 2 artifacts then they get a secret project for essentially free, while their opponents might throw all of their starting cash into a SP that they desperatley need. But in the ocean and the N and S landmasses unity pods make a lot of sense... they are there to reward exploration. Not being able to pod pop in the ocean is a good way of penalizing FM players, and a great way of rewarding players who run green. Without the ocean pods players with an "explore" style like Deidre stand much less of a chance. Also the unity pods are so dense that the can create imbalances based on what bonus you get, in one of my games I have 4 rocky/mineral bonus squares that will yeild 7 minerals each, which is a huge bonus, in other games I have seen people with only 2. 14 extra minerals is nothing to scoff at.

I personally think that the land barrier is far far too tough on factions that need to conquer early on and way too easy on factions that rush for air power. Being able to fly a jet over a land barrier in 2 turns is no barrier whatsoever, but it can make it really difficult for a conquer faction to do anything. Furthermore the fact that your neighbor's continent is just 2 terraforms away places a BIG emphasis on getting the WP, far too great in my opinion. The WP is a builder's tech and having to get it as a conquer player to build that bridge is a big penalty.

I think that the independent units are a sword that swings both ways. What I mean is although they really help low support factions, they help conquer factions too because it means they have 10 more units that they can support for the fighting.

The UoP's probe penalty does affect them more than you think. Since they can't run fundy their probe morale will be really low. IPT's are not perfect solutions, just rush a few regular probe teams at a specific base and since the UoP has such a significant probe penalty the probe teams can download several techs.

Also no one seems bothered that the Morganite starting cash is lowered so much, lets look at a regular game. A regular faction starts with 10, Morgan starts with 100. I view this as a multiplication of 10 rather than an addition of 90 . Lets reach a compromise like 250 or 300 credits. In regular games the starting cash for Morgan is INCREDIBLY significant for me, being able to hurry in recycling tanks in the second turn in my second and third base really speeds up expansion due to the extra food, and the minerals and energy are absolutely necessary if you are going to possess any kind of defensive force at all.

I think that the N and S continents make complete sense. Neither are they too resource rich. It takes a significant investment to make the sea transports to carry pods across, and then to DEFEND a small outpost. I think that the incredible richness of the N and S continents should stay as an incentive for people to expand. Otherwise once they reach the point in the game where they can expand new bases on arid land are practically useless since games on a map this size last such short period of time. PLUS you have to figure in the inefficiency drones, as a FM player especially having to rush buy a recreation commons for a size 1 city really sucks. A faction that can use police can expand much more easily, thereby increasing their minerals production much higher than a FM player could. And if they are vigilant in
their probing they can put those minerals to much better use.

Dem doesn't need to be penalized more. Going Dem takes away many of the benefits of FM- being able to rush buy a facility of formers into a new base on the first turn. Going Dem really slows down expansion. And here is where I would like to do a comparison, between a faction running FM/Dem and Yang running Pol Sta/planned.

The FM Dem player would have a hell of a time defending their expansion because they could not shuttle units across the sea without huge drone problems. Having no bonus minerals at new bases would make it take much much longer for those new bases to make MORE bases on the continent they are on. Meanwhile low support means that they would have a hard time terraforming the continent. And the planet rating would mean that they would frequently lose production and units to native life forms, especially IoD's. And not being able to police the new bases would hurt production even more.

Meanwhile Yang would have a breeze expanding. Not a single drone gets excited when he transports his military across the ocean. His bases grow at an exponential rate with +3 growth and +2 industry. Yang has several defense/police units at each base, and not losing any minerals to support.
Although IoD's are still an annoyance at they can still give him cash. His new bases immediatley start building something new since their first person is a worker, not a drone, due to police.

As I think I have shown Dem/FM already penalizes your expansion enough. In the above scenario Yang can expand like crazy while the pacifist player is fiddling around building rec commons and losing minerals to support.

As far as needing to penalize FM because of the low drones on lower difficulties think inefficiency. In a recent game as Morgan my growth was slowed quite a bit because of inefficiency drones. I spent more than 200 credits on rec commons alone, meanwhile a faction that WASN'T running FM can make tons of little crappy bases which will outproduce the few ueber bases of the builder. This is quite obvious in ACT008 where zsozso as the spartans crammed in lots of small bases to boost production while the UoP has only 9 bases. You simply can't expand like that in FM.


I agree that the UoP in FM needs to be penalized more, but not other factions such as the PK or Morganites.

Anyway I am enjoying the tournament regardless, and am looking forward to my next turns!

[EternalSpark]

I know this idea is prolly gonna be shut down, but since its in the alpha.txt file, I felt compelled to bring it up..

Maybe we could tweak alpha.txt to give the players the Alien Artifact Weapon.... all it takes is you have to give it a tech that lets you create it.. as it stands, its a very very expensive "weapon", but I think that if we gave some of the factions a few of these off the bat as independants, it would help their research a little... and to discourage someone from mass producing Fusion Rover Artifacts, we could up the price of it... its 36 as we speak, it would be more of a deterrant to building them if they were like 100-300 minerals for the weapon itself...

Just an idea. Prolly won't be accepted, but I think its a way to balance out tech.

[TigToad]

A few points I feel are important.

1. We need to make as few changes as possible or we invalidate every game going or played up until this point.

2. If players do not play equal numbers of games it invalidates the results anyway

3. If there is no time limit placed on the tournament (such as January 1st 2001). This tournament will never end and no winner can ever be found.

4. The islands are too close together, I think we simply added 2-6 squares of water between and stretched the poles out accordingly that would be my recommendation.

5. I like the new victory point system much better than the old one (heh, its built partially on a recommendation I made originally anyway. Grin).

6. This is the long one. The factions aren't balanced for this game. I've played 5 different factions in 5 different games. I've all but lost as Morgan, I won as the Gaians.. and I'm still playing as the University, Believers and the Drones.

I see some problems, none of them are with the starting techs tho. The Believers and Drones have a really hard time doing what they do best because everyone starts with decent defensive techs and the momentum factions do not start out with an ability to attack. Therefore, every game I've seen has been a race to air power. Making the maps bigger doesn't really solve the problem because then its air power and sea bases are the key. The main problem with the map is everyone knows where everyone elses cities are going to be because the map was made to be 'equal'. Its impossible to share a land mass, I realize the random factors (unity pods, starting positions, etc) unbalance the game to the lucky..but without the random factors its not a game of smac. I don't see the University as the problem I see the map as the problem, since they get to Air power first, they're the best faction. You take them out I think Morgan or CC is the best faction..you take them out it becomes the Gaians, etc. Thats just the way it goes. There is no way to 'fix' that under the current game conditions and changing those game conditions invalidates this tournament and turns it into a new tournament.

Tig