SMAX or SMAC poll

[senatus]

quote: Originally posted by Sikander on 02-23-2001 06:47 AM I find that the continuity of the storyline breaks down with the new factions though. (It was never very believable to begin with). For (just one) instance, there are now two 'Thief' factions (Data Angels and the Pirates) who nonetheless are bent on conquest just like everyone else. Who are they going to steal from then? This makes about as much sense as Santiago's faction of survivalists with a high police rating bent on taking over the world. These guys (the Spartans) are much more likely to evolve along the lines of the Swiss, and hire themselves as mercenaries than to support a huge sprawling empire. (That's what they want to fight against!) I think the game would have been bettered served by having more rationalist / economically oriented factions. Who besides Morgan and Lal purport values which appeal to more than a small minority? Perhaps Deirdre would appeal to some Westerners. The Drones could appeal to those educated in Cuba or North Korea. What's left? A University without grant money, a couple of religious cults, a statist cult, and whatever the Consciousness is. At least the Aliens make some sense.

I both agree and disagree with Sikander (whose name, for some reason, I always mutate into "Silksteel" when I first read it :-).

The factions' premise is based on conflicting styles of ideology. In SF, the closest parallel would probably be Gordon R. Dickson's "Dorsai" series, with Sparta as the Dorsai, the Believers as the Friendlies, University as the Newtonians, and Gaians as the Exotics. And maybe the U.N. as old Earth.

Now, the two "thief" factions make virtually no sense since they have no group ideology. Parasites in a larger society, yes; but not as self-sustaining societies on their own.

The Spartans can also be based on their historical analogues; I don't have any problem in seeing that ideology develop as a society since history has proved it already has. Likewise, religion has always been a major force even up to the 21st century, so a Believer nation-state is no more "unrealistic" than the Holy Catholic Empire - which did, in its time, maintain fleets and armies. In modern times, Islam or Hinduism might make more sense "by the numbers" of population as a group to form in AC, but presumably the game creators wanted a more familiar group for their target audience - as well as perhaps suggesting that the religion needed to originate from one of the more technically advanced cultures launching Unity (i.e. the United States).

"True" Communism, as practiced by the Drones, has never been implemented at a national level, although smaller forms existed in many tribal societies. And certainly the ideas of Marx brought about the many of the changes that brought the industrial revolution into the modern age as we know it - the concept of labour unions, or workers holding shares in their employer's company in a profit-sharing arrangement - came about from his ideas. Likewise, the Morgans represent the opposite side of that axis - hearkening back to the classical definition of liberalism and the function of the state being to enforce and promote the laws of property (that was John Locke, wasn't it? Been a while).

The University - well, it certainly is possible that a group of intellectually elite people might decide that they are superiour to everyone else, and should form their own society. Mensa on heavy steroids :-).

[Sikander]

Senatus,

Are you a real Ottawa Senator?

My beef with the Spartans is that they are associated with the Militia / Survivalist movement in the U.S. to some extent ("The right to keep and bear arms..") which is the epitome of the philosophy of decentralization. While such a group could band together for mutual defense (especially against a Yang type of state), it is unlikely that they would seek to subvert their own individual interests to a statist goal like conquest. Thus I see them more along the lines of the Swiss, who defended themselves vigorously, but did not centralize themselves to the degree that they wielded military power far and wide for their own purposes (except as mercenaries). If the Spartans are in fact based upon a highly centralized militaristic culture (like for instance the historical Sparta), then of course they make sense more or less. These types of cultures seem to be on the wane however as warfare has become the province of the common man much more than a social military elite since at least the time of Napolean if not the end of the middle ages in the West.

To my mind the Drones are also a bit strange, as their one remaining goal (they already have their independence) seems to be industrialization. They remind me less of the fairly rural and decentralized communal groups we learned about in anthropology class, and a good deal more like Stalinist Russia and China whose goals seemed to have been:

1) Take control (emancipate the workers) of the state and protect the revolution at all costs.

2) Industrialize what had been primarily agrarian societies.

My problem with this is in general my problem with many of the factions. Who are the workers of the University, and who are the researchers of the Drones? How often has social friction within a society between classes and professions created seperate states as a result? It is a difficult maneuver to pull apart the various groups which make up a state without causing a lot of destruction. It seems likely a suicidal task to do so immediately upon landing on an alien landscape.

Obviously these groups in SMAC may have sprung from more or less homogenous roots (probably to their great disadvantage), but within a generation these idealogical concerns are quite likely to be buried beneath the requirements for survival, and the very different attitudes and needs of a new generation which knows nothing firsthand of the social conflicts of their parents. A very similar thing happened here in America as the more or less fanatical religious types were free to worship as they pleased after they arrived. Their children grew up to be a lot more concerned with survival and material issues, and a lot less concerned with the religious quarrels of a world they had never known.

All that being said, I do realize that the goal was to make an interesting game, and here Fireaxis has succeeded magnificantly. The factions seem to be a hodgepodge of types (ie internal enemies like the University and the Believers as well as external enemies like the Hive and the Peacekeepers), but most of them are properly creepy and amusing. I have found that my problems with the factions and SE ratings are more than overcome by my enjoyment of the game systems.

[NorthSwordsman]

Personally, I prefer to play SMAX, the new technologies give you a number of different options (As if we don't have enough, lol) as far as building go. I defintely love the new SP's.

I enjoy using a mixture of the old and new... but just HATE the Planet Cult (their ideology.... is bizarre...). Among some of the things that are missing are two factions having hatred for each other because of the spawning of that faction by another.. for example, the 'Borgs supposedly came from the Uni... then why aren't they duking it out automatically? Ditto with The Drones... I've played all of the new factions and I enjoy playing the Drones (crank 'em out, Fred!) , the 'Borgs (once they get going...unstoppable, not to mention their techsteal ability makes up for some things).

The Aliens are another thing. You can undo most of their advantages in specific ways... Their ability to "directed research" can be undone by turning off the Blind Research option, and seeing the map can be undone by making sure "Unity Map survey" (or whatever it's called) is on... and then trading or tech-stealing your way to ahead of them. Yeah, right in the beginning, you can't exactly slug it out with them, but by mid-game, you are nearly even... For some reason, every time I've played them, seems like a human faction winds up out teching me in a hurry. *shrug*.

As for the Chem Warfare, they can sling it around with the humans and each other.. works both ways. The Aliens Ideology is OK, but the story just isn't complete.. like... what happened on Tau Centuari? (or whatever the heck it's called), with the "Flowering" being visited on other star systems, etc. Their storyline could have been better done, as well as most of the new factions. But that doesn't mean they are not fun to play. . They are.

Just my two creds.
NS.

[Dimension]

quote: Originally posted by Cybergod on 02-20-2001 05:01 PM Who says Data Angels are freaky?! I absolutely LOVE playing as them and taking the -25% probe costs advantage.

I just meant that they're freaky because it's such an awful picture... and calling her "The Infogrrrrl"... What the hell???

[Cybergod]

Well... yeah. Her portrait picture isn't as good as I might have put it :lol. I mean that hairstyle IS kinda freaky and the bases graphics don't seem to match the faction's style. I downloaded a alternative pics of bases from an unknown fan site and the file is called alien1 and they REALLY suit them.