Vel's guide

[lbores]

nicely done but leaves some things for granted. For example, the statement 'so there you are with your two pods and scout patrol ...'

From that I assume that it's reccomended to accumulate two colony pods which you then send off with the patrol unit. Which group then, I assume, explores the black areas looking for a suitable place to plonk down a base.

'Suitable' is somewhat self-explanatory but leaves something out. For example - in CivII, the best squares to plonk down a city were green (grassland) or brown (plains) or river trying to include something like a silk forest, grapes, etc into the radius to help growth.

So ... which are the best squares in AC for the base site itself? Moist? Arid? Rainy? Rolling+? River? On a nutrient square? Perhaps on the side of a hill? Or on top? How much overlap is permissible before it will effect growth of either base? Which is more important at first - roads between bases or t-forming the base radius? How many formers per city? Should you set a former upgrading the city radius and then build one and set it on 'automatic roads'?

What about tech priorities? Should you first get techs that bolster your infrastructure before punching up military? For a University faction, which Secret Project(s) would you choose? Given a choice, would you opt for Human Genome or Virtual World knowing you'll probably only be able to get one before the other faction(s)? How many cities building SP(s)?

Cities on coasts. Are trawlers all that helpful? If a special energy square is outside a city radius, can you send a trawler to it to bolster the energy supply?

For your first bases, is building a few rovers a priority over Recycle? Should they patrol in pairs in case they find an Alien Artifact?

Inquiring (newbie) minds crave knowledge of this stuff.

Thnx.

[Tau Ceti]

quote: Originally posted by lbores on 02-12-2001 10:11 AM For example, the statement 'so there you are with your two pods and scout patrol ...'

This probably refers to the units you start with. On Transcend and Thinker, you always get two pods and one scout (rover for the Spartans, add a probe team for the Angels and a mind worm for the Cult), on Librarian you usually get the above but sometimes only 1 pod. I really do not know on the lower levels.

Anyway, you can escort your colony pods, but it is usually not worth the trouble unless you intend to push them through heavy fungus and/or are playing with abundant native life. Most of the time they will reach their destination quite fine on their own, but there is some risk.

quote: So ... which are the best squares in AC for the base site itself?

The base site itself does not matter much, actually, as it has fixed production. No matter what terrain you build it on, it always produces 2 nutrients, 1 mineral and 1 energy (+1 energy for HQ base). Rivers give the usual +1 energy and special resources +2 of their type.

Whether you should build on top of special resources or not depends on both the location and your short term and long term plans, and could be a fairly lengthy discussion. I will leave that for someone else.

Ideally, you will want lots of rolling rainy squares with rivers and the odd monolith or two around your base site. That does not occur too often, though. Look for the following, roughly in order of preference: Monolith, rolling/rainy, rolling/moist, flat/rainy. Try to have at least 2 squares that can be used without terraforming (basically, rolling/moist or better) for each base. A couple of rocky squares for mines later can also be useful. High elevation is better than low if you have a choice, but highlands tend to be both more arid and more rocky.

The other terrain types are not very productive for a starting base, but you can plant forest on them so they will produce as much as most other squares in the mid term.

quote: How much overlap is permissible before it will effect growth of either base?

Habitation Domes (the SMAC equivalent of CivII Sewer Systems) are very late-game, so most of your cities will stop growing at size 14 (16 if you are Lal or have the Ascetic Virtues, 11 if you are Morgan). So six squares is a pretty safe overlap; in many cases, you will want a number of your citizens to be specialists who do not work in the field anyway, so you can get away with quite a bit of overlap. There are many different playstyles here.

quote: Which is more important at first - roads between bases or t-forming the base radius? How many formers per city? Should you set a former upgrading the city radius and then build one and set it on 'automatic roads'?

Roads are only useful for transport in SMAC. They do help your expansion and defence, but they also make it easier to attack you. In general, terraforming the base radius is more important - you should always try to have all your citizens working on improved squares. But if you have many flat squares (where building a road takes only 1 turn), building a road network before you forest the square can make sense.

I usually settle for a single former per city, sometimes two, plus a sea former if needed. You will find terraforming fanatics here who want five or more formers for every city, though. Like so many other things, it depends on your playstyle.

And my advice is to never, ever, ever automate anything at all.

quote: Should you first get techs that bolster your infrastructure before punching up military?

Builders go for infrastructure, momentumers for military. Neither can really be said to be better than the other, though I suppose it is not quite natural for Morgan to go military mad or for Miriam to build infrastructure. Depends on playstyle, faction and circumstances.

quote: For a University faction, which Secret Project(s) would you choose?

The Virtual World. Always. No matter what the situation. As the University you want the Virtual World.

Actually, you usually want all of them. The Weather Paradigm is very popular, the Merchant Exchange is useful if you intend to build a Super Science City (SSC), the Human Genome Project is one of the best overall. For the mid-game, the Cloudbase Academy, Hunter-Seeker Algorithm and Supercollider are all very good.

quote: Given a choice, would you opt for Human Genome or Virtual World knowing you'll probably only be able to get one before the other faction(s)?

As the University, the Virtual World. As everyone else (especially Morgan in SMACX), the Human Genome Project.

quote: How many cities building SP(s)?

Depends on the size and development of your empire and the desirability of the available (or soon to be available) projects. Hard to say anything exact here.

quote: Are trawlers all that helpful? If a special energy square is outside a city radius, can you send a trawler to it to bolster the energy supply?

Yes and yes. The ocean can give you lots and lots of energy and nutrients for comparatively little terraforming effort. But before Fusion Power, trawlers are expensive.

quote: For your first bases, is building a few rovers a priority over Recycle?

No. You will usually find several Unity Rovers quickly. What you want is formers as quickly as possible, a garrison, possibly an extra scout for exploration, and new colony pods. Recycling Tanks should be built when you have the cash to rush buy them, or when the base would otherwise build a colony pod before growing to size 2. Actually, there are lots of variants for the initial builds, and you should be able to find a lot of discussion about it in the older threads...

quote: Should they patrol in pairs in case they find an Alien Artifact?

Pretty much the same situation as with colony pods. Most of the time they will make it back on their own, but if you are in a high-risk area you might want to escort them.

Patrolling in pairs can be handy in case you run into mind worms in unity pods or when trying to enter fungus (especially if you play a faction with +Planet, as you can then capture the worms), but it is less efficient in that you cover less territory with the same units. Again, it is a trade-off for safety over efficiency.

[This message has been edited by Tau Ceti (edited February 12, 2001).]

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

Lbores,

Good questions all. Tau did a very creditable job of giving good answers. I won't pretend to dispute them but will instead give some rationale as to why they seem to make sense.

Q1) The two pods and a scout refer to a game set up and difficulty that allow the two pods. as mentioned. It also menas by defualt you've got the Look first option enabled ingame play. This is an important option b/c it leads to Q2 below.

Worms inthe very beginning are pityfully weka nad most time unless your slogging through fungus a worm won't be able to pick off you traveling pod or scout. AS a consequence as Tau suggests stear clear of the fungi and set up base in some clearish type land.

Q2) Best base site locations.

Many different schools of thought. Like the discussions though that are parraleling ours inthe SMAC section much is being written over in CIV2 regarding maximizing trade arrows (see energy) from the get go in order to blaze through the tech tree to key advances. Depending on game set up most especially blind or directed research, if directed is chosen it becomes very desirable to maximize energy even at teh early game to blaze your path to key techs of Centari Ecology (formers) and then up to Industrial Auto (crawlers). If blind research is enabled the answer isn't as clear cut.

OTOH it is most important that you have the ability fromthe get go to have the first square worked a 2 nutrient square (assuming you haven't built on a nutrient special). Base growth is important inorder to ICS justlike in Civ2.

Almost always though given the opportunity to build a base on a river, do so aslong as the surrounding squares leave a 2 nutrient available. Later onyou'll want to forest some of the river squares and yield a 1-2-2 which in the early game is a great square second only to a monolith. If one runs FM a farmed rolling/moist w/ river or a rainy/rolling river gives 2-1-2 also a great combo.


Q3) Base seperation. Too many schools of thought and much really depends on your factionof choice. My thought normally is a compromise wherein bases are 3 squares distant from each other. It plays into the mid game where one can decide to work a handful of squares and make specialists of the rest for big time research/energy windfalls.


Q4) which is most important (immediate t-forming)

Roads - naw usually thats a second or third priority.
A normal t-forming approach is make sure you have a 2 nutrient square then forest. This normally means farming a moist square ( or potenially nothing if your lucky to have a rainy) then going about a forest. Hopefully yo've chosen your first square to T-form as a rolling for an extra min. After the 2 nutrient square has been addressed its time for a forest and then maybe go back to the farmed square and polp down a solra collector or go on about building a road to the next base or base site in order to expedite getting your colony pods set up as bases pronto.

Q5) Bolster infrastructure or military

Really depends on the faction and the seeding onthe planet. Go out and explore ASAP. Normally the first few techs are generic and hopefully you know the lay of the land before youcommit one way or the other. No matter the faction you'll want Centauri Ecology for formers and then Planetery networks Beeline includes Net Nodes and Planned SE choice and Probes).

If you need to switch to guns vs butter then next logical choices are Laser tech and then Impact weapons followed by Mobility for classic Impact rover rush.

If looking for butter then continue with build techs to get to Induatrial Auto for crawlers and then upwards and onwards through restrictionlifting techs.

Again adjust your strat depending on your faction and proximity to hostile factions.

Q6) University Secret Project

Nuff said it is definitely VW for practically limitless horizontal expansion free from drone issues.

Q7) Choice between HGP and VW

Tau hit this one right as well at least for transcend level. Many times as empires get largish first citizenis a drone or at best the second citizenis a drone causing an initial riot. HGP is indispensible w/o having to rush build a number of facilities.

Q8) # of bases building SP's

Pretty much depends onthe AI and how active they are building SP's. I wouldn't hazard a guess other than I normally don't like to have more than 2 bases working on SP's as it prevents gorwth in my emprie whilst building the SP's of course they are likely supported by crawler producing bases as well. The initial pahse of SP building causes a pause in empire growth no doubt and the sooner one can get past the first round of SP builds and back to butter or guns the better.

Q9) Trawlers - worth it?

Ohhh Yeah in a big way. Look to them after fusion for a big return.

Q10) rovers or rec tanks?

Hmmm... an interesting question. On the one hand rovers are great for tipping pods and hopefully one gets a couple artifacts. If so they make an ideal source of minerals for cash in. Likewise an Ogre has its uses as well especially once it is damage it makes good sense to cash it in. OTOH tanks have great use. My normal preference is to go former, scout, pod, pod or tanks.......

My guess is depending on the faction and energy available it may make sense to build the tanks but as Tau suggests normally only when energy is available to rush build.

Long winded answer for it depends.

Last Q) Patroling in pairs.

Normally I would say no it doesn't make sense. Instead what I have taken to doing is on my continent I choose purposely to avoid tipping pods until I can set a base up next to the pod. In doing so I am normally guaranteed a benefical pod pop. Sure I may forgo some early benefits but instead of getting some maruading worms I'm more likely to get energy a finished build or the lovely artifact. On the ocean I normally wait until I have trance and flexibility and then patroling with a armored trance transport. I find the likelihood of popping a artifact much improved this way.

[Skanderbeg]

Tau Ceti wrote: Most of the time they [Alien Artefacts]will make it back on their own, but if you are in a high-risk area you might want to escort them.

My opinion: Alien Artifacts are extremly valuable, because they represent a technology. This means, in extreme cases, bringing home safely an AA can even decide between winning or losing the game.
They represent (in the early and mid game) the work all Your scientist can do in 6 to 15 turns!
So NEVER, NEVER, NEVER move an Alien Artefact without escort!!!
Especially because AA's seeem to entice mindworms then walking through fungus.

If You find an AA, bring it home, at once, on the shortest way, with an escort, and avoid fungus if possible.

"Starborn, Steelborn"

[Kinjiru]

If you are playing builder or hybrid style, then I will have to respectfully disagree with TC and Ogie on the first SP to pursue.

It's gotta be Weather Paradigm first, then VW second. Why? One word, boreholes. With the WP you can make borehoels, drill to the aquifer and raise/lower land as soon as you build it, rather than waiting for the tech advance that would normally let you do these things.

Besides, if you are playing on a large or huge map (which you should be, if you are a builder), then by the time you have the tech for the VW, you should have at least three bases up and running. If you started the WP as soon as possible in the first base (or potentially the second, depending on terrain and specials), then it will be half done or more when you start on the VW in your third base. If you have managed to snag an artifact or two, you can complete both the WP and VW at pretty much the same time.

Just my 2 cents...

[mark13]

Expanding further on the AA issue - never ever ever pop a pod with an AA - more times than not it will mysteriously vanish. Never happens with other units, but every time with AAs.

Chipping in with my tuppence on the SP issue - the WP is essential for early-mid game growth. OTOH, if EcoEng is available in reasonably short order, other SPs might be given a priority - the 50% terraform bonus is nice, but not essential. This makes it especially valuable, of course, in tech stag games, when it may take upwards of 50 turns to get there....

There are also a lot of good arguments to be made for the VW, however. If you are the University, as others have already said, it is essential - allowing for extreme horizontal growth, and with it a fair few RPs. However, how high a priority it is with other factions is less academic - and depends mainly on your eagerness to pop boom.

The VW is useful if you are looking to pop boom in short order - all you have to do is put a Tanks, Commons, Creche, Node and a couple of crawlers up and you are away to size 7 (14 once you have built a Hab Complex). This can be massively important in your mid-game production levels - once you have a Tree Farm up, each square producing 2 minerals with a pop of 14....I make it 30 minerals. This can, of course, be customized to allow for eco-damage by specialising, which in turn gives you flexibility.

The HGP is probably the most all-round useful SP in the game, simply because it allows you one size extra before you have to worry about drones, and any extra time you get before you have to start thinking in terms of Holo Theatres is a very good thing indeed.

Much of this has already been stated by others, but they are my views on the subject...

[Chowlett]

Another thing not to be overlooked is the HUGE energy saving the VW grants. Consider - for each base to build a Holo Theatre (as they will almost certainly need to at some point), they each have to invest something like 80(? - no details to hand) minerals and fork out 4 energy a turn. OTOH, for a one off payment of 2-300 (? again) you can have a holo theatre for the same price as a Network Node - about half the minerals and the upkeep is only 1. And anyway, you're building nodes in all your bases aren't you?

[Dimension]

quote: Originally posted by Kinjiru on 02-14-2001 05:27 PM ...I will have to respectfully disagree with TC and Ogie on the first SP to pursue. It's gotta be Weather Paradigm first, then VW second.

You have to admit that there are good reasons for going after WP, VW and HGP. I will always go for WP before anything else ... because I always get Centaur Ecology first, and double terraform rates and boreholes/condensors on specials is just too good.

If you're playing the University, though, you obviously want VW more than anything else in the game, though--even WP. It's just too good. Of course, I never even play University anymore (against the AI), because it's a joke. Even on Transcend/Iron on a regular sized map, even if you stop expanding after 5 bases, it's just basically an automatic win if you play the University and get the Virtual World fast. Free node and holo theater at every base, along with +20% research speed. Get Hunter-Seeker and you'd have to be an imbecile not to win.

Good point about cashing in artifacts for SP's. Most people I've seen talking on here sound like they'd rather obliterate their command center than use an artifact for anything but a tech. I'd much rather cash in those artifacts to get WP as early as possible, so I can start drilling holes on the energy/mineral specials and send out impact rovers to go demand tech from Zak/Morgan.

It's actually a great way to jump-start a builder game. Just park three rovers outside someone's city, say you want tech or you'll crush them. Last game I played, I did just that to Morgan, and got the "But Colonel Santiago, I was just uploading my files on Industrial Automation B3 as we speak!" Then take the city anyway, drive up to the next one, then see the screen pop up "Let's put an end to this! Will you sign a treaty?" ...no... "Perhaps 450 energy credits will change your mind" ...yes!... Then again demand tech or you'll crush him, and get the "But Colonel Santiago, I was just uploading my files..."

Of course, it was probably a bad idea me totally eliminating Zak/Mirriam and crippling Morgan in the first 100 turns, because then Yang took over the entire rest of the map while I built up, which made things pretty difficult later on...

[lbores]

quote: Originally posted by mark13 on 02-14-2001 06:29 PM Expanding further on the AA issue - never ever ever pop a pod with an AA - more times than not it will mysteriously vanish. Never happens with other units, but every time with AAs.

Actually - it doesn't happen everytime but enough times to make it a losing move. I made a common newbie mistake: activating a unit stacked with an AA and assumed that the blinker was the other unit. Wrong! It was the AA which popped the pod and survived. In fact it got another AA! Nice. That's happened to me one other time in which case the AA did not go boom but found some cash in the form of energy.

However, it's not a good practice and my story has a moral: make sure that the correct unit is blinking before giving it movement orders.

You other FNG's out there - you DO save before popping a pod do you not?


[This message has been edited by lbores (edited February 18, 2001).]

[KMadeleine]

According to the Prima book, alien artifacts have a 50% chance of disappearing if you use them to open a pod. I never risk it.

Yes, when playing single-player I save before I pop a pod. My husband thinks I'm a big old wimp for doing this, but I've done it ever since Civ2 days when I got some 'advanced civilizations' in terrible locations that weren't worth keeping.

On which wonder, I haven't seen anybody else mention the reason I build WP first, which is that its effects can't be gotten any other way. If you don't get VW, that's sad, but you can always build hologram theatres if you have to. If you don't get WP, your terraformers are going to be average speed, and that stinks when you're used to the WP bonus.