A case of SMACX ethics

[kaz]

Probes don't have Faction color tags on them for one reason:

Probes are supposed to be secret.

In SP, I can sent in a wave of Probes, kill his probe teams, and as long as I can blame the probe actions on someone else, I can keep my Pact and probe an ally to my heart's content. It should be the same in MP.

[sunchaser3]

It should be that way, but it's not. In SP when you probe a pacted faction and don't shift the blame to another faction, the AI knows you probed it and will rebuke or declare war. A faction always knows it has been probed in SP, including the player. The only question is who probed.

In MP the victim of the probe is never told that he is probed. There is no need to shift the blame if you just let other player move along in his ignorance. That is a big difference. That is why, unless you managed to have another faction blamed, you should always select "declare vendetta" after you probe a pact brother.

Probes are secret up to a point in both single and multiplayer. It was never a secret that you were the victim of a probe. The only secret was who is responsible.
[This message has been edited by sunchaser3 (edited April 28, 2000).]

[Adam_Smith]

First, this problem does not exist in IP play. Another thing, why can't you just tell the person that you probed that you did so so that they can decide if they want to end the pact. Why should you have to declare V'detta. We ran into this problem in another game. Someone probed a pact mate. Then they declared V'detta, but the probed faction did not want V'detta. We had to replay.

[JAMiAM]

quote: Originally posted by Adam_Smith on 04-28-2000 05:13 PM First, this problem does not exist in IP play. Another thing, why can't you just tell the person that you probed that you did so so that they can decide if they want to end the pact. Why should you have to declare V'detta.

Because of the timing issues. In IP, and SP games, the response is essentially in real time. You have the ability to react to the probe, immediately. In PBEM/hotseat, the notification occurs when the prober is playing, not allowing the probee an opportunity to exercise a real time response. Thus, the prober could have several probe teams lined up outside of bases ready to strike all of them, in succession. This would be nearly impossible to pull off against someone in IP/SP, since the downgrading of diplomatic status is accompanied by an immediate, mutual withdrawal from each the former pactmate/treaty partners territories.

quote: Originally posted by Adam_Smith on 04-28-2000 05:13 PM Why should you have to declare V'detta. We ran into this problem in another game. Someone probed a pact mate. Then they declared V'detta, but the probed faction did not want V'detta. We had to replay.

Technically, if the probed player had previously given permission to his treaty/pact mate you do not have to choose the "declare vendetta" option. At least that is the general rule that has been adopted by the pbem community. However, those instances are few and far between. It is extremely rare that someone will grant such favors, a priori, to even the most trusted partner.

JAMiAM

[EternalSpark]

If the rules weren't like that in the tourny, I would exploit the Probe bug all the time, cuz thats how it happens in real life. There shouldn't be any way my probe team NEEDS to be publically announced - I want the tech, and I don't want the guy I'm taking it from to know.

[Adam_Smith]

JaMaiM,

I think it is the general case. But the probed faction should have the option of declaring V'detta. It shouldn't be made for him.

I think that the honorable play would be to play it as if it were IP play. It certainly would not be fair to move multiple probe teams into a pact members territory and probe him, then choose to not declare V'detta, and then to probe him with the probe teams inside of his territory. That is, without discussing it with him first.
[This message has been edited by Adam_Smith (edited April 28, 2000).]
[This message has been edited by Adam_Smith (edited April 28, 2000).]

[Helium Pond]

EternalSpark, Kaz, and the rest of the "probes are supposed to be secret" crew:

When you say "probes are supposed to be secret," you're redesigning the game. Probes are not supposed to be secret. At the most, as pointed out earlier in this thread, the responsibility for probes can be hidden. But the game designers never intended probes to be completely undetectable. This is a bug. If you like it that way, that's one thing. But just don't say that's the way it's supposed to be. The only ones who know how it's "supposed" to be are the game designers, and it's obvious they thought probes should never be 100% secret.

mad with the power of boldface type,
HP
[This message has been edited by Helium Pond (edited April 28, 2000).]

[sunchaser3]

Adam_Smith,
Yea, that's the problem. The other player doesn't know he was probed. The only player who sees the window for declare vendetta is the player who did the probe. You could probe him forever and he would never know about it, without the added risk of blaming it on someone else. That is the bug, the fact that the window appears on your turn, and never appears on your opponents turn.