What do YOU want in SMAC2

[Analyst]

Three more ideas (there goes my studying).

When upgrading a unit, improving the chassis should also be an option. I should be able to upgrade a silksteel shard infantry unit into a silksteel shard rover or chopper with energy credits. If special abilities don't convert, they should just disappear, maybe even saving money. Now, this is only an infrequent option while a unit is in production and you design a new one in which the only difference is the chassis. The chassis change could be expensive, but I shouldn't have to disband the unit in a base and lose so much production value relative to the gun and armor costs.

Any unit with more than one movement point should be able to attack up to their number of movement points, not just choppers. This goes for elite infantry, rovers, and especially gravships. I'd like them thought of as action points. Gravships hover like choppers and the infantry and rovers are on the ground anyway. Also, there's no reason why a bomber or interceptor can't make another pass, if it has fuel. All units with enough action points should be able to stick and move, not just move and stick. Maybe part of the answer is giving units a fixed amount of ammo that must be "recharged" as part of an improved military logistics system, or requiring an attack to use multiple action points.

Also, speaking of movement, one of the most annoying things is to have a gravship with lots of movement left end it's turn because you accidentally moved it the wrong way and it entered a friendly base. Only air units seem to fall victim to that, and no unit should. Airplanes don't automatically land on every runway they fly over.

[Blake]

I agree the combat system really does need to be revamped, while the civ system was fine for civ it really needs to be dropped for SMAC2.

Unit workshop is cool, instead of chassis, weapon, armour, special, special I think the options should be
Weapon: weapon strength compared in battle
Chassis: multipliers for combat strength according to terrain, ie rovers mobile in open bonus
Shield aka forcefield: This increases the hitpoints of a unit, the effect is much greater in bases because the unit can tap the base energy grid, thus defenders get a bonus
Special Abilities: Have a whole host of these, and not restricted to 2, but some could be mutually exclusive. Examples:
Anti-missile counter measures: Combat bonus vs units with missile based weapons.
Empathic: Improved police, still quell one drone even under negative police coditions. More difficult to bribe.

Units should be generally more expensive than facilities, an attacker should require a reasonably extensive combined arms attack to conquer a city, and a city should be more of an asset than in SMAC.

Also, facilties which act as immobile units. For example SAM battery instead of increasing the combat bonus vs aircraft actually defends against aircraft, so even if the base has no units an attacking fighter still engages in combat with the SAM battery (or has a chance to get shot down). These facilities are destroyed in battles, and automatically repair by about 25% every turn, or can be rush-repaired. Other inbase defenses could be coastal battery, laser battery. Also these defenses should auto-upgrade with tech, further reducing MM, and a newly built base should have "miltia" which can defend against a less-than-serious attack (for example a scout rover stumbling across an undfended base should not be allowed to just walk in).

The actual combat should be played out in CTP2/MOO2/HOMM style, as units would be grouped into armies. It would be really nice if you actually saw rovers flanking infantry and infantry digging in, but I would be happy with a simplified combat, and the option should be available.

Speaking of options, there should be options to allow low-spec users to play the game, or high-spec users to be able to play with hundreds of armies and bases on huge worlds without slowdown. By this I mean have options for simplified units & terrain, so instead of showing up as a nicely rendered animation a missile rover is just a square with a R6 (chassis, weapon). So for small worlds you can enjoy the eye candy, while vets who know every unit inside out have options to increase framerate at expense of understandability. With SMAC you could zoom out 4 times, and the units became coloured squares. Would have been great if they had a 'F' for former, and different coloured borders for different states. But No, instead every unit was an indentical square, and bases were a slightly larger square. Stupid.

I should be studying, too

[DilithiumDad]

The military model you are speaking of has been executed in Deadlock (1996)and Deadlock II (1998). The original Deadlock had a more playable demo, which you can download from this link:
http://gamespot.com/gamespot/filters...197068,00.html

Do yourselves a favor. Download the free demo and play the game. Now tell me if you think SMAC would be imporved if they grafted on the military model and resource management from this game series.

There are 7 species which correspond with eerie similarity to the original 7 SMAC factions. Here is a key for the SMAC player:

Green faction = Gaians = Uva Mosk
Insectoid faction = Hive = Ch'Chit
Research faction = University = Maug
Money and commerce faction = Morgan = Humans
Military faction = Spartans = Tarth
Mind control faction = Believers = Relu
High morale (easy drone control) faction easy for beginners = PK's = Cyth

There is an 8th faction (The Skirineen) that runs the Black Market, but you can't play as them.

[Fugi the Great]

After reading the previous posts, it sounds very much like all that is needed is a patch or a mod to make most people happy, and most what you are asking for will probably be in Civ3, which after reading an article about it sounds very much like a SMAC clone with a few tweaks here and there to fool us into thinking its a whole new game.

I on the otherhand want a whole bunch more for SMAC2. They started with 3D units, so now give us the ability to design our own units in 3D, there are lots of talented artists out there, give us the template. Also some way to make movement of units faster, even on an P3 800 those units are slow, especially the alien units. Maybe convert them to 2D at the touch of the spacebar and move them as in CIV2?. Make a true 3D planet, that is spherical, with polar icecaps that can melt and also refreeze - there should be no reason they can't do this. Different levels in altitude for different units to be in, so that now a plane can fly over an enemy unit without having to attack it, with satellites above those and other space units in near Planet orbit only, and submarines that can travel under enemy ships without attacking. You no longer can just park a bomber in the middle of road to halt enemy movement, or put an army of sea terraformers out in the way to block submarine movement. Public works AND terraformers, so I don't have to build a huge army of terraformers, and make the terraformers so that I can put them in Automatic and tell them "plant forest only" - something very much missing in SMAC or SMACX, if players don't like PW then they can set it to "0", if they don't like terraformers, they don't have to build any, both could/should be used because both have their good/bad points. Expandable city influences as in CTP2 to combat ICS, but with the border movements of SMAC, but this should be OPTIONAL, for those who don't like it. Better diplomacy to "haggle" over the fineprint of a treaty. An AI that doesn't pick a fight just because I'm ten times bigger than they are, and also knows when to quit after it gets its butt kicked. And more upbeat music, that music/noise (whatever you call it) got very annoying after awhile. Also it needs to be more open for mod designers, with a way to easily design your own mods and scenarios. Please add the ability to research multiple techs as in MOO1, and even there not really too directed since most discoveries are by accident, but somewhat directed if we know that someone else has already got that technology. And please, fix ALL of the bugs not just most of them.

To sum this up, try something different. People complain about how terrible CTP and CTP2 are, but the programmers at least tried something new, maybe it was too much too fast, but those two games are the two I keep going back to again and again. Those games are very modifiable, maybe not easily, but a lot better than SMAC. SMAC can be boring and depressing. I do not want another ICS terraforming game, I already have enough of those.
[This message has been edited by Fugi the Great (edited April 21, 2001).]

[Alinestra Covelia]

This is something I was wondering about, as I examined my world map. It probably has more resonance with Civ3 than with SMAC2, but it's an interesting idea all the same.

Call To Power tried to innovate with the poles, allowing you the option to make your world doughnut shaped. (ie if you walked off the top row you would appear on the bottom row) Whilst this owes more of a debt to pseudocartography than astronomical feasibility, it still highlights a distinct lack of purpose to the Civ2 and SMAC poles.

In any Civ2 Earth scenario, in order for the USSR to nuke America (or vice versa) the superpower in question must send a nuclear weapon across the Pacific or Atlantic. Frequently the range involved is too great for a single flight. In reality, the nations would most likely consider delivering the nuclear weapon across the Arctic circle. Most flights from London to Beijing or New York to Beijing do cross the Arctic circle, since the curve of the earth favors that more than an Atlantic/Pacific flight.

So - how about the possibility of moving a unit on the top row to any other square on that top row? This would reflect the fact that the poles are on the same latitude lines, and that moving from meridian to meridian is simpler at the poles.

[Cybergod]

Alinestra Covelia, I've been wondering about the poles ever since I landed next to them for the first time! I think that would be great but the shape of the "world map" would need to be changed to something else. Maybe eliptic?

I would also like different SE models. How do you know if Planned, FM or Green economies would survive up to 2100.? Or if there still would be some fundamentalists about? I also don't seem to see in the world that countries are 100% in one thing and 0% in other. Also the period of switching from one to the other should be longer and dependable from how big is your empire. I mean, yes the capital would make the switch quickly enouth but what about those cities on the edge? What if some of your cities are more influenced by your neighbours ways of living and decide to switch (or it happens vice versa)? I'd like to see "philosophies" of different faction, a bit like in "Stars! Supernova Genesis" (from the screenshots of it though, I don't particulary like it), where you have:
* Alternate Reality (energy-based life forms that only inhabit starbases, orbiting and mining the local star until it's depleted, then caravanning to the next empty system)
* Bio-Engineer (name says it all, masters of biotech)
* Synthetic (machines, robots & manufacture...)
* "Standard" (pick and mix of the three above)

Also there were some interesting philosophies in the above game so maybe go to http://crisium.com/sn/snprt.htm ?

Tech trees: do they have to be the same for everyone? Maybe one faction's personality is mainly 'synthetic' weapons (made with machines, and uses robots a lot) and another uses loads of bio-tech. For those with biotech, the sinthetic armament would be all in one technology possibly called Sinthetic Machinery (like Bio-Machinery for the synthetic faction).

Also I've been thinking about our storyline problem. Do we really have to more from Planet straight away? Can we wait a little later because there is so much we can exploit by staying on Planet. Maybe 'borrow' some bits from other Civ games? Maybe a tech called "Secrets of the Wormholes"? I think that my colonies idea should be used for colonisation of other planets in the Alpha Centauri system (if I remember one of them, it as Eurypton - Mercurian planet) or moons of Planet or even asteroids (asteroid mining, remember the Living Refinery video?). Maybe leave the "Return to Earth" scenario for later or maybe make it AS a scenario in the end game.

I've never played Deadlock and so don't know what it's like, so can some one link to the screenshots page of it? Please?

That is all from me for now folks .

[Sikander]

quote: Originally posted by RGE on 04-18-2001 12:25 PM One thing I would like to see in regards to combat is a different take on weapon and armor. If the weapon has lower power than armor, the attacker shouldn't be able to hurt the defender. If the weapon is as high, or higher than armor, the battle should be resolved by comparing weapon vs weapon. Because this seems to be the way everything is heading in modern warfare. Armor is good for protecting against shrapnel and small arms, but it's not used for actual defense when attacked by similar machines as the one you're using. Although, maybe accuracy and speed is more important once it's been established that you can't afford to let your armor take the hit, just as long as your own weapon is able to penetrate your opponent's armor. RGE

I don't think that a weak weapon should be completely useless against strong armor. For instance, a .50 caliber machine gun of WWI era design can shred a BMP (Soviet Armored Fighting Vehicle) designed 50 years later, even though the machine gun was not designed for that role. It takes a long time for armor tech to completely neutralize weapon tech. This is in large part due to the need for armor to cover a large area, while the projectiles / energy of an attackers weapon can concentrate on weak spots, or create them through multiple hits. This doesn't mean that there is no advantage to armor. In the example above it would be completely conceivable that the BMP could aquire the .50 cal machine gun and destroy it with cannon fire before the .50 cal could do enough damage to destroy the BMP. It might make the BMP think twice before engaging several machine guns at once however.

My problem with the Civ system of combat is it's reliance upon units of a single type. It is tactical combat on a strategic map at a strategic pace (1 year per turn!) . A much more realistic model would be the grouping of different types of weapons into combined arms armies (or divisions etc.) Add a leader pool where leaders of varying ability are kept. You could assign a leader to each of your armies (and certain factions and SE settings would excel in leadership or not) and the system becomes much more palatable. There is nothing I hate more than the Civ scenario where a Phalanx produced by a city of 10,000 blocks the movement of even a Panzer Korps produced by a city of 1,000,000 over a huge area until it is squashed by the Panzer Korps. Zones of Control should be based upon the ability of an army to project power into adjacent areas. It should be a product of mobility vs the distance involved and firepower of the reacting unit vs the fire power of the force which moves into the potential zone of influence.

Military movement and combat should be carried out simultaneously, based upon the orders given by the human (the high command) or AI, and the results should be dependent upon enemy moves as well as the quality of the respective leaders, and the difficulty of the desired movement. This would not only speed multiplayer by eliminating the wait for each player to make their moves sequentially, but also by reducing the number of moving entities involved. It should also help the AI, as the human cannot take as much advantage of the unrealistic total tactical control he now enjoys. Moving all of your units in whatever order you see fit is extremely powerful, and well beyond the ability of the AI to take advantage of. Instead both human and computer will issue simpler intstructions, and both must anticipate and react to the chaos and imperfection of the battlefield.

[Earwicker]

quote: Originally posted by sk8ordie on 04-12-2001 03:38 PM ok, if we're evolving constantly dont you think future humans would look different. play areound with that.

Similar thought: As bases grow, and the factions grow older, the base appearance should change. It's weird that bases with large population just look like proportionally larger versions of themselves at a younger age. Yes, there currently are minor variations, but it makes the later game a little boring. This is particularly true for factions like Angels, Hive, Pirates, whose bases are plain to begin with.

Other stuff:
1) Different factions should research specific techs more quickly -- maybe even research others less quickly. For instance, Gaians get 10% (or so) Labs bonus when researching "Centauri" techs, -10% while researching "Industrial" techs. Spartans +10% for "Doctrine" techs. Or assign different tech values for different research areas to impede the tendency for the game to become a wargame -- like increasing the costs of "conquer" techs.

2) How about more SP's whose effect is dependent upon SE (like Longevity Vaccine)? Or SP's that, in addition to their positive effects, come at a price -- by creating negative effects to certain SE choices. Sort of the anti-Network Backbone or Cloning Vats. That might mitigate the unbalancing effect of certain SP's

[johndmuller]

quote: Originally posted by Earwicker on 04-23-2001 10:33 AM 2) How about more SP's whose effect is dependent upon SE (like Longevity Vaccine)? Or SP's that, in addition to their positive effects, come at a price -- by creating negative effects to certain SE choices. Sort of the anti-Network Backbone or Cloning Vats. That might mitigate the unbalancing effect of certain SP's

How about some occasional really BAD unexpected SP Side Effects - the result of mad scientists, accidents in the lab, bad luck, whatever.

Examples:
--Space Elevator Collapses during Ribbon Cutting Ceremony -- A one plot wide ring around Planet is devastated by the impact of the falling cable; terraforming, units, bases all gone; must negotiate heavy compensation with all affected factions and/or engage in vendetta.
--Planetary Datalink Glitch -- Programming error causes All of YOUR Tech to be published on the Web (permanent or one-time only).
--Cloning Vats are Big Disappointment -- The extra population produced by the Vats are ALL DRONES.
--Weather Paradigm Backfires -- Incompetent scientists create environmentsl disaster at base where it is being researched; equivalent to earthquake/meteor/nuke - minus 2 Planet adjustment.
-- Have fun making up more.

[Sikander]

The Hermann Goerring Project -

A glitch in the HGP accidently infuses all citizens with a propensity toward obesity and delusions of grandeur. Every population point now requires 3 nuts to support, and diplomatic relations suffer a penalty.


Synthetic Virtues -

Every one seems real nice, but behind your back, watch out! Hab limits are relaxed by two, but those two are automatically drones that look like talents! Watch the fun as the drone riots begin!


The Planetary Gridlock System -

Government engineers radically underestimate the growth of motor traffic when designing roads. The result is miles of gridlocked traffic, well beyond the quadruple bypass, blocking every major artery into the city. All travel along a road is at double the normal cost of the terrain in the square. Every fourth worker becomes a drone.


The Planetary Energy Reneg -

Areas of your empire which support Green economics over Free Market suffer from rolling blackouts as they refuse to build sufficient energy production facilities. Your Energy Minister refuses to build solar panels or tidal harnesses and instead tells them to wait until the market forces a correction, or more energy can be crawled in from the north. Every fourth base produces -1 energy per square. The effect lasts until the discovery of Sympathetic Fossile Fuels.


The Maginot Defense Force -

Rather than impose an expensive and politically unpopular militia system upon your citizens, your defense minister Maginot hits upon an idea of extensive fortification. Every square surrounding each of your bases is converted to a bunker (using commandeered formers of course), regardless of the effect upon any terraforming. Brushing aside the complaints from the Chief of staff regarding the insufficient numbers of troops to hold the bunkers, and the possibility that the enemy might occupy them to invest bases, Maginot presses on.


The Hunter - Sucker Algorithm -

While it appears that you are immune to probe actions, in fact what has happened is that every faction has infiltrated your counter-espionage agency. -4 probe rating regardless of other settings.


[This message has been edited by Sikander (edited April 24, 2001).]
[This message has been edited by Sikander (edited April 24, 2001).]

[Aredhran]

NO BUGS

'nuff said.

[Cybergod]

quote: Originally posted by johndmuller on 04-23-2001 03:19 PM How about some occasional really BAD unexpected SP Side Effects - the result of mad scientists, accidents in the lab, bad luck, whatever. Examples: --Space Elevator Collapses during Ribbon Cutting Ceremony -- A one plot wide ring around Planet is devastated by the impact of the falling cable; terraforming, units, bases all gone; must negotiate heavy compensation with all affected factions and/or engage in vendetta. --Planetary Datalink Glitch -- Programming error causes All of YOUR Tech to be published on the Web (permanent or one-time only). --Cloning Vats are Big Disappointment -- The extra population produced by the Vats are ALL DRONES. --Weather Paradigm Backfires -- Incompetent scientists create environmentsl disaster at base where it is being researched; equivalent to earthquake/meteor/nuke - minus 2 Planet adjustment. -- Have fun making up more.

I love those ideas! Well, all except the Cloning Vat side effect.

BTW, this is the 101th post to this topic!!!!!

[sharpshooter]

Before I start suggesting new features, I'd like to know if there's ever going to be a SMAC2? Has Firaxis said anything on the question? Has anyone asked? And as you all probably know, Brian Reynolds who designed SMAC has left Firaxis.

[Vultur]

I've got a couple of idea for SMAC2:
Movies for all types of victory (Not only Trascend & Progenitor)
For Conquest Victory:
Immagine a lot of soldiers aligned, behind them speeders and hovertanks
and over squadroons of Neddlejets that fly to a big monumentum (like that you see when you descover a Secrect tech) and the a voice (maybe Santiago's) that read the text for the Conquest Victory.
For Economy Victory:
Immagine the Planet seen from space, with tons of bases' lights,
and one after one the lights turn off except a region and Morgan's voice that read the text for Economic Victory.
For Diplomatic Victory:
Immagne a big assembly, like a parliament and the votation for Planet Governor, with the voice of Lal that read Diplomacy Victory's text.

I've think that other type of victory could be enjoyable.
For example:
Satellite Victory
Someone has proposed as satellite facility a sort of "death beam", my idea is that you built, for example, 10 "death beam" for each non-pacted faction, you can activate the "Satellite Peace Platform" and win the game.
Any faction can do it.
Planet Buster Victory
If you build enough Planet Busters (20-30, maybe more) you can try to "Threaten the Planetary Council",(Council option, after the discovery of Will to Power ) that can vote for you for not to be busted off; obviusly they can risk and, joyn the forces, combat till the death (their...or yours!)
Any faction (also Progenitor) can do it.
Probe Victory-for Sinder's lovers-
New Probe Action "Steal Secrect Codes", performed at enemy's HQ:
Allow ANY probe action against the victim faction that act as -2 PROBE for 10 turns, disregarding for SE,facilities, SPs, etc.
If you steal all enemys' codes in 10 turns you can "Introduce Networks' Virus" and taking off the Planet, pushing the other factions on the Stone Era!!!

I have also an idea for robot factions:
Square don't produce nutrients (Robots don't need them)
Robot's "population" need 2 energy/turn
Robot bases don't growth (you can expand only building Colony Pod)
Robot's CP don't subtract "population" from the base"
Children's Creche,Cloning Vats can't be built
The Nano Factory SP work as Cloning Vats for robot factons.
The CPs' cost is determined by ASSEMBLY values on social engeneering (ASSEMBLY=GROWTH)
A robot faction has not Talent/Drones, Pop Boom, Golden Age etc.
Instead of drones the robot faction as "Upkeep problems"
Base begin to produce "out of order" population; the production is not stopped as in the case of drone riots, but this "robot drone" extract only the half of resources rounded down (do you remember polluted square in Civ2?). If "robot drones" are more then normal population the base stop to work (too many upkeep's problems) and only high UPKEEP values on social engeneering (UPKEEP=POLICE) or have Upkeepers(=Doctors, Empaths, Trascendent) or relocate energy to the Maintenance(=Psych). Obviusly the equivalent of Rec Commons, Holo Theaters etc. can be built to avoid "out of order" population. Talents don't exist so Garden of Eden, HGP etc. can't be built. Also Punishment Sphere & Nerve Stapling are impossible.
A robot faction has not positive/negative MORAL modifiers.
They can upgrade their moral only building Command Center etc.
They can also build units with "High Moral" named for them "War Algorithm"
They can build nerve and soporific gas units, but against them don't work.(Robots don't breath)
Instead enemy's faction can use Comm Jammer ability (+100% vs robots, they take this as an Atrocity)
An other "robot atrocity" is "Introduce Polymorphic Network Virus" that works as Gene Warefare.
MORALE in the SE is replace by BELLIC (Industry) that influence units' costs (act as INDUSTRY)
They can't capture or bree or own Mindworms, they haven't PLANET bonus/penalties in PSI combat against native planet life that "infiltrate through every crevice and chew through anything softer than plasmasteel."
(Can robots feel?an androids does dream eletric sheeps?) Other factions can't attack/defend using PSI units (simply don't work!), but robots can do it (with mechanical aid). PLANET rating influence the Maintenance costs of the facilities (recicling abilities).
For the part of conquering the bases there is the same "relocation" for the robots (as in SMACX, for the Progenitors)

I think a robot faction is not overpowered (you decide when a base growth, but population needs energy, humans can't use gas or nerve but Comm Jammer is enogh to stop them, the bases don't revolt, but there aren't talent to balance the balance the drone's effect etc.)
Maybe must be add robot's name for the SE choises (robot fundamentalism? "in Gear we trust?"), but I think SE with the adjustment seen above are quite good.

What are your ideas?

[This message has been edited by Vultur (edited April 25, 2001).]

[knowhow2]

quote: Originally posted by Vultur on 04-25-2001 03:34 PM I've got a couple of idea for SMAC2: Movies for all types of victory (Not only Trascend & Progenitor) For Conquest Victory: Immagine a lot of soldiers aligned, behind them speeders and hovertanks and over squadroons of Neddlejets that fly to a big monumentum (like that you see when you descover a Secrect tech) and the a voice (maybe Santiago's) that read the text for the Conquest Victory. For Economy Victory: Immagine the Planet seen from space, with tons of bases' lights, and one after one the lights turn off except a region and Morgan's voice that read the text for Economic Victory. For Diplomatic Victory: Immagne a big assembly, like a parliament and the votation for Planet Governor, with the voice of Lal that read Diplomacy Victory's text. I've think that other type of victory could be enjoyable. For example: Satellite Victory Someone has proposed as satellite facility a sort of "death beam", my idea is that you built, for example, 10 "death beam" for each non-pacted faction, you can activate the "Satellite Peace Platform" and win the game. Any faction can do it. Planet Buster Victory If you build enough Planet Busters (20-30, maybe more) you can try to "Threaten the Planetary Council",(Council option, after the discovery of Will to Power ) that can vote for you for not to be busted off; obviusly they can risk and, joyn the forces, combat till the death (their...or yours!) Any faction (also Progenitor) can do it. Probe Victory-for Sinder's lovers- New Probe Action "Steal Secrect Codes", performed at enemy's HQ: Allow ANY probe action against the victim faction that act as -2 PROBE for 10 turns, disregarding for SE,facilities, SPs, etc. If you steal all enemys' codes in 10 turns you can "Introduce Networks' Virus" and taking off the Planet, pushing the other factions on the Stone Era!!!>[This message has been edited by Vultur (edited April 25, 2001).]

This is really ideas! Not to much but definitely a improvemnet. Maybe this idea could be introduced in a expansion set prior to the sequal?