atrocity ecodamage

[Adam_Smith]

Ogie,

I think you are right. My research advisor tells me that I will discover something next turn but I don't.

At any rate, I am not a researcher. I am a thief. However, I don't always result to that strategy. Sometimes I research instead.

As far as the Green vs. FM, I will encourage you to test it out occasionally to see if FM will be better for you. I used to be afraid of FM too until I agured with someone long enough that I was forced to reevaluate my strategy. FM will definitly give you more energy in 90% of cases.

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

Adam

re: PS's on the outset it may appear that PS are not affecting your tech rate but I beleive the bug still exists within SMAC(X) wherein the lab screen isn't showing properly the tech you get from PS bases. As a result you get fooled into thinking that you are raking in double the research while in reality you aren't. (at least this is how I beleive the bug was working, and again since I ususally don't use them I don't have this problem) i.e. the PS's actually behave as advertised and halve your lab output although not properly displayed. It should be an easy enough experiment to do simply count the number of turns the screen says you have till your next tech advance. If longer than what the screen says chances are your PS's are kicking in.

On the efficiency thing I find a big dif depending on your game style to +3 eff vs. +4. (Similar to +1 econ vs +2) a huge step forward once this magic threshold is broken. Especially with specialists one can essentially set all specialists to say engineers to bring in a nice baseline of cash and set about 100% research allocation w/o penalty of remaining base energy. Whilst specialists don't pay an efficiency penalty a switch to a research oriented specialsit nets you less effective energy (5 for engineer vs. 3 (useful) for a thinker or librarian) so best means to pump up your research is to max out your energy allocation while still bringing max energy from an engineer type. OTOH once transcendi become available, Engineers get replaced with equivalent +6 energy (useful) transcendi and allocation slams the other way for cash.

[Sikander]

Adam,

I don't doubt that FM is better in all sorts of situations, it just doesn't fit a good part of my game. I think the fact that I use specialists and crawlers is significant, because the number of squares where I receive bonus energy is limited to about 5. It's something, but not the breakaway setting that it would be for someone with extensive worker served forests.

I check my SE setting frequently. By the time my bases have matured, they are more efficient under Green than FM. Even when FM is more productive, I have to consider the adjustment costs in comparison. Btw, I do build a lot of bases, which does make efficiency important (mostly for the new bases without crawlers or buildings).

Ogie, I do the same thing that you do with my economy. Make everyone an engineer, and set science to whatever you like. It really makes the rest of the game easy.

[joer]

Sikander:
If you crawler in lots of energy, you still get the +1 bonus from FM. Unless I am seriously mistaken...

Just a side comment, which may not even be relevant to you. Relying on merely engineers for your energy production, while crawlering in food for your cash-cows might work just as well.
-joer.

[Adam_Smith]

joer is right. supply crawlers give you the same energy as if it were a worker.

You have to plan for FM. That takes some experience. You have to look forward and you have to know what you need. It may not fit in your stratery, but I have tried a little bet of ICS and I can tell you that if you build a lot of bases FM is better that Green. The only time that Green is better is when you have big bases that are VERY far apart, or if you are at war and have no Punishment Spheres.

[Adam_Smith]

I don't play that way. I've turned some coquered bases into mostly specialist, but I can't say that it is part of my over all strategy. I can say that in most games that I play I get more research or energy from +2 efficiency and +2 economy than I do with + 4 efficiency when I go to 100% energy or research alocation. However, to maintain maximum efficiency I try to only do that in emergencies (which is not often). I still don't see any reason why Green would be more efficient that FM, but I will check the next time I build some specialist bases.

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

Adam

If you have any interest in the specialist approach check out the specialist cities thread in strat section. The evolution of the idea was kind of laid out there and the whole idea kind of took some twists and turns.

It provides an interesting counter approach for single player who knows how it would fare in multiplayer? I would recommend factions with high support and or industry. Right down your alley with the Believers and Drones.

[RoadRash]

I tend to wimp out on the FM path because of it's negatives. But I have to admit, that +1 energy per square is awesome. Usually that means you're doubling your net income, not to mention you're ripping past everyone in technology. If I wasn't so lazy I know I'd bite the bullet more often. Green just plays alot smoother for most of the game.

Back on the original topic of this thread, I happen to be a big fan of fungus/quake missiles. They're just plain fun. I use the tectonic warheads to bury enemy fleets and to tweak borders in my favor. Sometimes I even use the fungus missiles to "plant" fungus for myself late in the game when my fungus production bonuses are really high.
And yes, the use of these warheads triggers tremendous ecodamage. Which doesn't bother me to much since I've turned off global warming; but I've still wasted alot of time beating down hundreds of worms a turn. And that late in the game, the last thing you need is something that makes the turns last longer.

[Adam_Smith]

Ogie,

I will check out the thread. I'm somewhat familiar with specialist bases. I tried it once and actually won the game. I did it with the Drones. No green of course. I ran Free Market and Police State. -2 inefficiency did not hurt too much because I made my HQ a superbase. I used supply skimships to transport energy to HQ. Man, that +2 econ really paid off there!

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

Joer and Adam,

If I may speak on behalf of Sik for a second as I have played extensively with games in the fashion that Sik is partial to. (In reality I like to play multiple styles, conventional, specialist, in momemtum, hybrid and builder flavors. I think real potential exists with a specialist style and think maybe a combination specialist/conventional style may be the answer)

Typically in the specialist game crawlered conventional energy is a last bolt on to your economy. First order of business is crawlering in nuts to support a population that is in a high proportion specialists particularly engineers once fusion is discovered. Only a handful (say 2 or 3)of worker bees per base are on squares and typically these are on the most productive squares ala boreholes. By the time one maxs out population to 14 (16) population only then does crawlered energy come into play. By that time your empire should be quite large in terms of number of bases and more often than not you are in a conflict or two going a-conquering. For those two reasons green can be a nice SE choice. The +1 energy per square doesn't become a huge deal as you really are only harvesting energy from say at most 3 squares per base. True enough scads of bases running as high as +3 econ (FM/W) will get you nice energy influx especially base squares but the ability to really increase base square income by going to +4 econ or higher isn't an option (at least until Eudamonia) b/c over half your population is specialized thereby not allowing the rule to be met for golden age (i.e. half the population talents and no drones). This being said the ability to be completely felxible with energy allocation is a bigger factor than the little bit of excess energy you'll get from FM. Not to mention the nice little adds of being able to capture mindworms etc. from + planet rating. P.S. Those worms make excellent garrison units if nothing else. (Nice anti-nerve gas inherent ability)

Long and short of it incomparing FM to green is that much depends on two primary factors.

1) Number of squares actually worked and/or harvested for energy
2) Emphasis/importance in your game style to allocate freely energy w/o penalty (i.e. paradigm eff.)

[joer]

Another side note:

I used the specialist superbase with lots of energy crawlers from the mirror park in my last game (SNAC, tho. I love that mod). I found it relatively easy to keep a constant GA, because of the few workers and relatively high psych allocation (20%). With SE: Wealth, I got the same effects as FM in that city (+1 energy/square), while going green, keeping up a high efficiency and not having to worry about planet.
-joer